Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby junglelord » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:41 am

6. Hydration:
Each matrix protein has 15,000 water molecules attached to it each one being a dipole. This means that its orientation on the protein is related to the arrangement of the amino acid peptide, which was determined when the protein was assembled. The conditions of atomic attraction and repulsion determine the conditions for hydrogen bonding and therefor the direction of spin in specific direction and in specific spatial planes that the water molecules take that surround the protein. Microtubules begin as monomer units of tubulin and are polorized. This means that it has two ways of fitting into the polymer. Also micro tubule associated proteins or MAP’s s attach to the microtubule polymer also have two ways of attaching or fitting to the protein. These conditions are determined during the creation of the polymer and create strings of information like a word processor. In a neuron microtubules and neurofilaments can function like what in computer technology is called a string processor. These subunits of information organize the arrangement of the water molecules that surround the microtubule. This orderly arrangement of the local water dipoles creates packets of information that express themselves in their vibration or spin that will influence the entire matrix grid. The water contributes to the quantum expression of the atomic arrangement in an integral way such that the ECM, movement, posture, emotions, are expressed in the hydration of fascia down to the subunit level of the cytoskeleton and individual and ever changing arrangements of the gel sol process and assembly disassembly of the cytoskeleton. Movement of a wave is dependent on the hydration of the ECM and the fascial web and has influence down to the level of DNA and cytoskeleton creation and organization patterns which reflect back as relationship vibrations.

7. Rheaology:
Rheaology is the study of fluid thermodynamics as it relates to plastics, rubber and viscous materials that are part liquid, part solid, at varying temperatures. The mathematical equations are well established and apply equally as well to the gel – sol transformation of the ECM and collegen elastin and reticular fibers via heat, water and microfiliments and microtubule transformation abilities. It also applies to the relationship of mitosis and DNA splitting at the base pairs. Fluid thermodynamics exists as a set of verified equations that establish another powerful relationship between physics and biology.

8. Continuity:
Continuity in a tensegrity structure vibrations travel through out the living matrix and distribute regulatory information that conducts local cellular events and global systems integration in a biophysics information grid. Transmission of the vibratory signals through the living matrix inputs unity of function to the organism. Energy is both quantified and transmitted in both a local and global system of interacting wave fronts. Wave form analysis is a mathematical process that is recognized by a series of formulas called Fouier Equations. These equations prove that all complex wave forms have an underlying simple expression, or common vibratory frequencies mathematicly due to a series of inter relationships that all complex waves must have. The movements of a dancer when analyzed express themselves as Fouier Transformations. According to the Continum Communication Model every event produces vibrations that travel through out the living matrix. In this way all parts interrelate at all levels from information through energy wave relationships.

9. Quantum Continum Communication Model:
A fascial sensor field array is created by multiple layers of fascia and in varying numbers of planes in any given area. An energy field is created by any given group of sensors (sensor field array) simply due to the electrical and magnetic field vibrations created by each component. They form a collective bio – electric/magnetic field semi – conducting transmitter/receiver grid that is both local and global in sensitivity and design. The measurement of these fields has been established by the use of a SQUID imagining technology that measures via a superconducting quantum interface device. These fields extend up to three feet from the body for the heart field. The series of acupuncture meridians correspondes to the main channels of the semi conductor network. According to acupuncture theory the main meridians (jing) run vertically but many horizontal meridians (luo) run into every part of the body.

These points are sensitive nodes in the system where local information is gathered and integrated with long distance communication information and with both internal and external information via newly discovered type III and type IV gravity receptors that are clustered around these nodes. The electrical evidence of these nodes have been studied by Dr. Becker during his examination of the currents of injury and the regrowth of limbs by a salamander. The nodes can be measured as focal points of charge within the energy grid that act as dipoles with either a positive or negative polarity.

The average tissue current is – 5 milliampes with an injury the electrical current generated or the current of injury is around + 10 to 15 millampes. Within three days the salamander unlike you or I will reverse the polarity and create a – 10 to – 15 current that stimulates regeneration of the limb as opposed to scar tissue formation. The same mechanism is fundamental in bone fractures in humans if union is to occur, lack of union indicates that a positive polarity is matained at the injury. The collegen rich connective tissue matrix acts like a semi conducting electronic communication network that extends throughout the body and integrates with these varying sensory grids. The collegen fiber contains CSF and may function as a quantum computer RAM that stores and replaces information via electron spin due to the circumference of the lumen and the size of the molecules. The changes in hydration and alignment of the collegen fibers acts to magnify or inhibit amplification of the human energy field. The nodes of polarity stimulate a morphogenic field that extends into space that generates information for the blastosphere to differentiate into specific tissue via a quantum wave expression that is arranged by the energy grid as it self assembles and specializes.

This semi conducting network maybe set up like what in computer systems is called a “distributed network”that manage information theory. Such a system will reroute information when a transmitter/receiver is down via a self management program that always takes the path of least resistance so that the system accomadates local downtime via systems integration of the grid as a whole. This way individual microprocessors correspond to the nodes based on the assembly of programs or algorithms systems analysis and the fascia receptors and the meridians relate the energy grid in a physical sense. The integration of the ECM and the collegen fibers to the arrangement of the cytoskeleton via microtubules and microfiliments to the clusters of gravity receptors and the arrangement of meridians theory is evidence of quantum continum communication model that self monitors and interrelates to all levels of vibratory coherency.

10. Holograpic Waves:
A holograph is an expression of a relationship between a pure light source and a light source reflected from an object. The interaction of these two separate sources and their resulting interference pattern is the holographic information. Each piece of a holograph contains the entire information of the whole unlike the conventional sense of a photograph. If you were to break a plate of a holograph as opposed to a photograph, the photograph would disassemble into separate pieces that are not expression of the whole just as individual pieces of the whole. The holographic portions would contain all the information of the whole just in smaller form, like the expression of DNA from a cellular to an organism level. The senses of vision, smell, hearing, movement, proprioception are expressed as holographic waves of information that express themselves in the form of consciousness. The ability to relate to the universe is due to the fact that as biological organisms we have replicated structures that are holographic in both encoding and decoding of wave front information that arrives as an interference pattern. The universe and consciousness are both holographic in nature. The interrelationship of the receptor decoding of wave form analysis via special senses and the holographic nature of the universe via the equality of matter and energy indicate that as biological organisms we must exist only via our ability to respond to the different types of wave energy that are present.

11. Consciousness:
Consciousness is the totality of these vibrations both internally and externally and as they relate in an integrative way. The body expresses disease and disorder in many means of communtication. The search for consciousness has left neuroscience with parts that have known functions, but in no way explain the relationship of consciousness. The search for a neurological basis for all cellular events is not possible as cellular events occur at a pace that nerves could not facilitate. The expression of hormones with the nervous system again has specific recognizable patterns that in classical texts are considered to be the source of homeostastis but the acute inter relationship between cell to ECM to tissue to organ to system to organism is still incomplete. The expression of many explained laws of physics applied to the tensegrity fascial matrix and wave functions as packets of information that code emotion and consciousness that help to explain many results of fascial therapy and emotional response. The search for consciousness was examined by the ability of a salamander to have its brain dissected and replaced in a constant game of shufflebrain of improper orientation yet never resulted in a loss of function for the salamander.

Therefore consciousness and the ability to relate to the universe is much deeper then a nervous system and the holographic functions expressed via the tissue tensegrity – matrix system seem to replace the search for an engram even in a salamander. The organization of the body within a gravitational field will amplify the expression of the wave dynamics to such an extent that the entire field of the body will resonate at a higher and more coherent frequency like the amplification of photons in a ruby, or semi conductor or laser. The therapist may experience an image of a clients injury without previous knowledge when treating a specific area of tension and the patient will express in a verbal sense either voluntary or under questioning that such an injury had indeed occurred. The transmission of information from the patient to the therapist may transcend much more then the four T’s of palpation. These experiences have been noted by bodyworkers of integrative therapy as well as by myself. To many occurrences of this have convinced me that something that can be explained by the laws of physics and the transmission of energy and information is conveyed in a deep level of integration between a trained therapist and the response of the tissue as it holds trauma and emotions. Trust your instincts, and your hands. In the search for consciousness the search for a fundumental unity such as a region of the brain has to be replaced by a study of the web of relationships, as energy, waves, harmonics, holographs, information packets.

12. Wave Mechanics and Healing Energy:

Is it possible that wave mechanics will explain so many mysteries of the biological organism and the results of alternative therapy and paranormal events. Consider a Self Regenerating Coherent wave function that expresses itself in the ocean as a Tsunami or tidal wave. Tsunami’s are one of natures expression of a Soliton Wave Function, earthquake waves are another. A seismic wave will make a material like ground or rock behave like a liquid, and can also squeeze liquid from the rock. These waves behave in a way that is quite unlike other waves that you might imagine. The Tsunami is invisible in the deep ocean and travels as if it were a ghost and yet it is a huge energy wave of a replicating function like a laser. If two Tsunami passed each other in opposite directions they act as if neither one interacted! They sound like quantum mechanics on a grand scale with possible implications to healing energy and the effects of wave energy in a coherent self regenerating function as might be expressed by the intent of a therapist or the power of prayer. A Soliton Wave function may explain the ripple felt by therapist in their patients as the function of wave propagation across the organism. Is it possible that Soliton waves restore communication channels by penetrating into areas of the living matrix that have been closed off or protected for a long time. This can release emotions that effects the consciousness in the form of a reflected wave that travels through the living matrix. An entire wave of sensation can be conveyed instantaneously. The Soliton wave may be energetic enough to bring about the depolymerization of information rich molecules and erase memory. A Soliton wave may stimulate metabolic activity in the tissue that has been dorment. Most toxins are polar and are held in areas of dysfunction, which can often be smelled by the therapist as they effect the gel sol relationship of the connective tissue and change the physiological processes of transport via the ECM and the vascular system.

The pulses of electomagnetic charge emitted from the hands of healers, qui gong masters, therapist are in the frequency range of 5 – 8 hertz, within the resonance frequency of the earth known as the Schumann resonance which is 7.83hertz. Altered states of consciousness are recorded during the pulse emission. Wave harmonics of the Schumann resonance include 14, 20, 26, 33, 39, 45 hz. The earth resonates with the electromagnetic activity of lightning strikes that occur at the number of 10, 000 at any one time, and is felt as a resonance pulse that circles the globe. The earth resonates with electrical energy and magnetic energy. The charged Van Allen radiation belts that encircle the earth also called the ionosphere or magnetosphere is a product of high energy particles emitted by the sun and the also the effects of the solar rays. These energetic fields of radiation protect the life on earth from the harmful rays of the sun. They also transmit information as do all waves energy. Einstein recognized that energy and matter are equal, but we now recognize that E=M=I or Information is always a product of the wave/particle duality of nature and communicates on a quantum level that is expressed as non local communication or faster then the speed of light. The speed of gravity is measured at 10 to power 18 of the speed of light! It is felt in an instantaneous fashion as a non local field wave effect. If the sun would suddenly disappear the gravitational effects would be immediate. The loss of light is limited to its speed which is 186000 miles a second. The non local field effects can magnify the local fields via a universal interaction that can be demonstrated by the power of a black hole where gravity is stronger then light and yet is the weakest of the four forces. Structural/vibratory alignment can magnify local field effects due to the relationship of gravity or the non local field.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby StefanR » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:40 am

Holy smokescreens Batman, that is some good information (Glad you got that back from the old forum) and a marvelous car indeed. :shock:
Will you turn into a revived avenger against scientific criminals ? Look out, as a car like that might attract Catwoman :o ( :? maybe that is not such a bat thing ;) as long as it is Michelle).

Greetings Clark :geek:

PS. Is yawning a stress or a tension reliever? (This is a serious question :| )
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby junglelord » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:21 pm

Its the car, chicks dig the car (I might make it electric, I have some serious thought on that. Atomic batteries to power, turbines to speed!)
:D

yawning relieves both stress and tension.
made me yawn...
:lol:

This link relates similar information, some relating to the work of Carver Mead in his book Collective Electrodynamics (MIT 2000): about consciousness and nanotubes of the body.
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/ ... #resonance
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby junglelord » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:08 am

Number 848 #2, November 27 , 2007 by Phil Schewe
Tissue Stiffness as a Measure of a Health.

Matthew Urban (Urban.Matthew@mayo.edu) and his colleagues at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine are designing ways to measure the stiffness of tissues as a non-invasive diagnostic tool. Monitoring a tissue's material properties may not be as obvious a gauge of its health as looking at its biological or chemical properties, but changes to these properties can be a good indicator of disease. Areas of stiffness in a tissue, for instance, are often a good warning sign of cancer---the basic premise behind breast self-examination.

Likewise when cancerous tumors form on the liver or another one of the body's organs, they are often stiffer than the surrounding tissues because there are more blood vessels to support the tumors. The problem is, how can you measure stiffness in tissues deep within the body? There is no such thing as a liver self-exam. At this week's ASA meeting, Urban reports on his latest experiments, in which he and his colleagues used focused ultrasound waves to deliver tiny vibrations to a steel sphere encased in gelatin, a model of a tissue with a stiff lesion.

They were able to measure the frequency response of the sphere to acoustical waves of multiple frequencies, which can then be used to determine the stiffness of the tissue-mimicking material. The method also provides new ways to non-invasively cause vibration for assessment of tissue stiffness without the presence of the steel sphere. Moreover, they were able to deliver the energy to the sphere without heating the surrounding gelatin. This is one of the challenges of using highly focused ultrasound, because acoustical energy can be absorbed by nearby tissues in the form of heat. (Talk 3pBB1, meeting website: http://www.acoustics.org/press/)



http://www.aip.org/pnu/2007/split/848-2.html


Tissue Stiffness as a Measure of a Health.
Yes it totally true...but try using your hands and feel the tissue change under your touch....Thats the problem....no Hands On...DOOH! After all we are dealing with a colloid and the gel/sol relationship with tissue, especially the fascial tissue. By the way Visceral Manipulation, Rolfing, Matrix Repatterning (Tensegrity Therapy) all work with the organs and tension aka stiffness. Your not healthy if I cannot quiver your liver. So yes you can do a liver examine, at least I can and I do. In fact I had a swollen and stiff liver from allergic reactions to medications for my blood disease of being a thrombofeliac (rat poison/coumadin is the first choice and almost the last in cases of thinning blood). I self diagnosed, the physicans agreed and now I take injections of Low Molecular Weight Herprin daily. I always said I lack Heprin, not Rat Poison. Tissue health and Tension (Tensegrity) cannot be seperated. Structure and Function cannot be seperated.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:09 pm

Chaos and Re-Integration as a Dynamic Theraputic Model

I will say that as a Orthopedic Structural Integration Therapist I used Gravity as a tool and also Chaos and Re-Integration as a tool. Yes I did and yes you can. The power of Structure and Function cannot be understated. My lifelong look into many things took me to Chaos and Re-Integration from a book called Mega Brain years ago. I one day realized that my clincal practice and my patients response to Structural Integration was on many levels and that they were in fact showing the truth of the work from Mega Brain on Chaos and Integration. I thought that was interesting to share. Its a function of the ANS *autonomic nervous system* and of the fascial tensegrity matrix and the cells themselves and can be used as a tool theraputicly.

At a cellular level when doing Fascial Tensegrity Therapy, cells and their cytoskeleton undergo Jitterbug transformations (spontaniously disassemble and reassemble) which is a higher order of geometric expression after a chaos event. I realized many things as a Therapist through my clinical practice and how physics could help me to be a better therapist.
:D

Very few medical professionals understand physics or how to apply it to treatment models.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: Recovered: Tensegrity Structures in Biology

Unread postby StefanR » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:59 pm

Mechanical and dynamic systems giving form to living things

Just as foundations and pillars are necessary to build a house on the ground, formed cells have a dynamic foundation, an extra-cellular matrix consisting of proteins, and a cytoskeleton, the raw materials that form them. The strength (tension) exerted by the cytoskeleton differs with the cells. When the cytoskeleton is destroyed or supplied with material that prevents its dynamics, the cell dies. Cell death also occurs when cells are peeled off their foundations, the extra-cellular matrix. Bioinformation is written in the genome, but it does not build forms. To read a genome, the field requires mechanical strength. To endure that strength, living things build a dynamically balanced structure with proteins or sugar outside and inside the cell.
Image
The cytoskeleton is a fiber structure to generate expansive or contractive elasticity and, at the same time, to resist that elasticity. Actin filament in cultured cells produces stress fiber that has a contractive structure similar to the sarcomere structure of muscles. D. Ingber of Harvard University named this dynamic structure the “tensegrity model” (Fig. 1-a), since it controls by tension as in a tent or Fukuoka Dome, and applied it to cells. All cells have three kinds of protein fiber, or cytoskeleton, in common: actin, tubulin and medium-diameter filament (Fig. 1-b). Contrary to the names “tensegrity” or “skeleton,” these are dynamically reproduced. In particular, the hollow nano-fibers and microtubes produced by tubulin reveal so-called dynamic instability. As the name indicates, the nano-fibers and microtubes combine and co-polymerize GTP, extending the microtubes. Once GTP is decomposed to GDP, however, it becomes unstable and starts depolymerizing and contracting. This results in an increase of non-polymerizing free forms, causing the extension to occur again. The maintenance of these chemically balanced relations forms the background to the dynamic instability. Further, once combined with increased free forms, tubulin’s mRNA is destabilized and destroyed. It becomes unable to produce tubulin. This suggests that the cells’ dynamic state is adjusted by proteins working at site in co-polymerizing/de-polymerizing states, rather than by self-control at genetic level.
Image
Fig. 1 Skeleton structure of cell
a: Tensegrity model (Ingber, 1997)
b: Three cytoskeletons
c: Remodeling of cytoskeleton from myoblast to muscle fiber
(cytoskeleton structure to produce sarcomere)


It is known that the microtube divides chromosomes into two during cell division. It has been proved that the microtube is essential in skeletal muscle cells for maintaining polarity at the time of fusion from myoblast to muscle fiber. Recently it was also proved that it maintains the dynamics of the cytoskeleton itself by interacting with the actin filament. It is thought that the actin filament provides muscle cells with contraction force, in particular, when interacting with myosin while the microtube counteracts with extension force (Fig. 1-c). Within this dynamic environment of mutual different directionality, cells do not move but sustain a tension-generating environment. In the sarcomere, it is highly structured (Fig. 1-c, bottom).



The molecular chaperone takes care of the protein system

While maintaining structure to generate functions, life systems function by circulating two aspects with different directionality in various tires. The come-and-go between both poles becomes the dynamic-maintenance factor, or stress factor, to the cells and facilitates adaptation. This dynamic is the synthesis and decomposition of the protein itself: dynamic formation retention by copolymerization and depolymerization of cytoskeleton protein; consumption and generation of energy; form retention and tension exertion; contraction and relaxation (extension); exercise and structure maintenance; and stabilization and destabilization. Thus, cells regularly use functions of the regeneration system by the central dogma within one-generation lifespan. And cells entrust the maintenance of normal protein function in the regeneration system itself to the molecular chaperone (stress protein), which takes care of the protein’s lifespan. If protein denatures from this circulating system, it shifts to various clinical states (e.g., Alzheimer’s and prion disease). It is proved that 30% of the cell’s neo-genesis protein is abnormal, as it decomposes soon after it is synthesized. This evidence shows that the cell system must be continually, dynamically in motion. There are many stress proteins. In heart-muscle and slow-muscle cells, which are models for long life-adaptation strategy, there is a high expression rate of low-molecular-weight protein (sHSPs), among others, operating in the key part of the function/structure linkage system of energy dependency.

Image
Fig. 2 Fiber structure inside and outside cell and molecular chaperone to maintain dynamic

On the ground, gravity is a constitutive factor. I considered a cell’s continuous dynamic response system by using the molecular chaperone (Fig. 2). I examined: the molecular mechanism of αB-crystallin on cytoskeleton protein that generates the tension exertion and contraction mechanism inside the cell; the gravity load of the chaperone HSP47 on the main protein collagen in the extra-cellular matrix, that is essential for fulcrum formation outside the cell; and response to release (rat model). HSP47 is a sole molecular chaperone, the expression of which is controlled by HSF inside endoplasmic reticulum. It was proved that HSP47 is essential for three-spiral polymerization of collagen protein, and for adding and processing secreted hydroxyl to the exterior of the cell


In a myoblast with frequent αB-crystallin expression, tubulin/microtube (part of the cytoskeleton) and crystalline localization are well agreed (insert fig ref.). The tubulin and actin extracted from slow muscle with a high rate of αB-crystallin expression combine to form the primary ground substance. αB-crystallin functions as an effective molecular chaperone to constrain coagulation sedimentation by the thermal denaturation of tubulin. As a result of the investigation, the functional part was found on the C-terminal side where the “α-crystallin domain” common to sHSPs is present. It combines with MAPs that stabilize the microtube’s polymer, thus contributing to the stabilization of the microtube. Time-lapse images show that a cell with increasedαB-crystallin expression is dynamic but adheres without moving. After injecting anti-αB-crystallin antibody to the cell, however, it loses stability and an erratic motion arises
Image
Fig. 3 GFP-αB crystallin that is expressed on heart muscle cell

It is suggested that systems that cannot be realized simultaneously by non-life systems (such as form building, tension exertion, contraction/extension movement and combination with energy supply system) are dynamically constructed in cells by molecular complex synchronization.
In addition, the following are suggested: the maintenance of cytoskeleton dynamics is essential for the tension-exertion system with high perpetual-motion-like adaptability; the molecular chaperoneαB-crystallin is an indispensable adaptive molecule in the system; environmental stimuli are important to provoke stress-protein expression, which tends increasingly toward activity dependence.

When tension cannot be exerted, the cell cannot maintain its system, resulting in death. The genome has been decoded and overall analysis is underway. Just as the cytoskeleton gene is used as a control for comparison, the cytoskeleton is probably designed to remain mostly constant at gene level. We are losing the life-system point of view, which is very inevitable and constitutive, including life-science research related to space and gravity response. I hope that, at least in space research, our field of vision in the quest for the true nature of mankind living in space will widen to include the birth of space and the earth, and the nature of outer space and the earth (our own celestial body), and not be limited to non-life research.


http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/forefront/2004/atomi/index.shtml
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby tholden » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:45 am

More evidence of changed gravity:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.j ... ero101.xml

Researchers arrive at a theoretical limit of about 88 lbs for flying creatures; study mentions pterosaurs much larger than that:

Pterodactyls were too heavy to fly, scientist claims

By Richard Alleyne, Science Correspondent
Last Updated: 6:01pm BST 01/10/2008

They carried away Raquel Welch in One Million Years BC and were ferocious in the Jurassic Park series of films.

But now it seems pterodactyls, the terror of the prehistoric skies, may have struggled to get off the ground.

The new research claims that the ancient reptiles, which could grow to the size of small aeroplanes, were too heavy to fly - even with their massive wings.

The problem, according to a leading scientist, is that they could not flap fast enough to create the thrust to keep their enormous bulk airborne.

The 'dinosaur' popularly known as a pterodactyl is actually called a reptile called a pterosaur, which is Greek for flying lizard.

It existed alongside the dinosaurs between 251 and 65 million years ago, and were thought to be the biggest creatures to ever take to the air.

The fossilised remains of one example had a wing span of more than 15 metres.

But Katsufumi Sato, a Japanese scientist, who collected data from five large birds including the world's biggest, the wandering albatross, has calculated that it was physically impossible for them to stay aloft.

The University of Tokyo professor claims that the largest animal capable of soaring across the sky unaided could have weighed no more than 40kg (88lbs) or the size of a labrador dog.

Prof Soto, who reported his findings in New Scientist magazine, travelled to the Crozet Islands - halfway between Madagascar and Antarctica - and attached accelerometers, devices the size of AA batteries which measure thrust, to the wings of 28 birds from the five species including the albatross which is a soarer like the pterosaurs were thought to be.

Unlike turkeys or bustards, whose short wings are good for quick take-off but not for soaring, these larger birds fly long distances using dynamic soaring - they ride changing wind currents without moving their wings.

But when the wind dies down, or blows at a constant speed, they have to flap or be pulled down by air resistance and gravity.

The maximum speed a bird can flap is limited by its muscle strength and decreases for heavier species with longer wings.

Prof Sato says animals heavier than 40kg would not be able to flap fast enough to stay aloft. This would explain why the wandering albatross weighs only 22 kg (46lbs).

A bird weighing too close to 40kg would be incredible unstable and "would not have a safety margin to fly in bad weather", he added.

His results, presented at the Third Annual Biologging Science Symposium at Stanford University, in California, are unlikely to win him friends in the dinosaur community, some of whom have criticised his findings.

Palaeobiologists, who reconstruct the flight of pterosaurs, believe they were dynamic soarers with wingspans up to 15 metres across - enough to keep them airborne even if they weighed almost a quarter of a ton.

Dr Mike Habib, of Johns Hopkins Medical School in Maryland, said "his 40-kilo threshold is problematic" when it comes to predicting the flight of pterosaurs.

He said although they were built like albatrosses - only four times heavier - differences in anatomy, physiology and environment must all be taken into account.

One possible theory is they would rely on thermals to stay aloft having dropped off the edge of a cliff. However, evidence that they could walked for considerable distances has also been discovered.

Another theory is that their wings were so large that, relatively speaking, wing load was low. If a pterosaur spread its wings, staying on the ground would have been more of a problem than taking off.

Pterosaurs vanished along with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, after a possible asteroid impact.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby Steve Smith » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:23 am

Ted,

I don't think most people comprehend how big those beasties were. The article states that some had a wingspan of 15 meters! In studies of the fossil remains it's been determined that some specimens of Quetzalcoatlus stood 2.5 meters at the shoulder. There are bigger, less complete fossils with shoulder heights of 3 meters. Not forgetting that skull lengths of close to 5 meters and widths of more than 1/2 meter mean they could swallow a full-grown man whole since most average sized human males are a little over 1/2 meter wide at the shoulder.

Image

There's been some talk elsewhere that the big flyers were able to live because there was an increased atmosphereic density in the past thus providing additional oxygen for the large muscles of the creatures, but that doesn't take into account the weight that has to be lifted off the ground. Some beg the question (like the article does) by saying they lived on cliffs and soared on thermals or ocean wavefronts like a condor or an albatross. However, when one considers the weight estimates of 250 kilos no amount of hedging can overcome the problems of flight at those wingspans with that mass.

Even if the animal lived in the heights, once it was on the ground it would never have been able to lift off against a 1g acceleration field. And what about eating? How much would it weigh after consuming a meal appropriate to a 250 kilogram animal with a presumptive high metabolism?

Image

Steve

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby junglelord » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:20 pm

What if it was flightless?
I know we would think it had to be a form and function relationship, but maybe it did not fly.
Of course maybe the earth has grown in size. If that was true would they fly then?
I am constantly reminded that dispite the best theory, superconductors are much warmer then theory can account for.
I wonder if its also the same here?
Could this fly given the same gravity as today?
They say no way according to theory, but what if it did fly anyway?
Then what? Of course we can never know, so its really a mute point.
It could be flightless, gravity could have changed, maybe gravity did not change and dispite what theory says, it did fly.
All three are the only possible choices I believe.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby Steve Smith » Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:40 pm

Read Ted's "Dinosaurs and the Gravity Problem" here:

http://www.anomalist.com/print/TA1.PDF
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby tholden » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:04 pm

What if it was flightless?


The wings would be vestigial and not 60' in span.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:51 am

That is way too much of an assumption.
If it could not fly then who is to say they were for flying, and therefore would need to be vestigial?
That it would not be for some other function, that we just are not thinking of.

The wings on my chickens were quite long considering they did not fly.
;)

I do not see any muscle on that creature that would flap those wings, same as my chicken.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby tholden » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:27 am

The wings on my chickens were quite long considering they did not fly.


Chickens were originally a 1 - 2 lb jungle fowl which got bred into a 6 - 8 lb domestic meat animal but still has the 1.5-lb jungle fowl's wings. They can fly to some minimal extent and in fact if there were anything to evolution at all you'd figure that somewhere along the line some small number of them would have evolved slightly bigger wings and retaken the skies and that we'd see chickens overhead above us much of the time.

In real life however once you lose the tiniest bit of any complex capability it's gone for all times. The ostrich and moa and all such others lost flight after the change in gravity and wings quickly became vestigial on the ones which survived. The fact that the pterosaurs wings so clearly were not vestigial says they had to be flying.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby tholden » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:30 am

Steve Smith wrote:Ted,

Not forgetting that skull lengths of close to 5 meters and widths of more than 1/2 meter mean they could swallow a full-grown man whole since most average sized human males are a little over 1/2 meter wide at the shoulder.


Youtube has at least one sequence of a heron swallowing a rabbit whole which would be more of a challenge than the pterosaur swallowing a human. Fabulous images.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:18 am

tholden wrote:in fact if there were anything to evolution at all you'd figure that somewhere along the line

Please tell me that this is not the reason of posting this subject. We are hopefully not going to have to go through some creationist debate, do we?

tholden wrote:The ostrich and moa and all such others lost flight after the change in gravity and wings quickly became vestigial on the ones which survived. The fact that the pterosaurs wings so clearly were not vestigial says they had to be flying.

You really got to be kidding me. So gravity had to have changed for ostriches en moas lose their abillity of flight? That's pretty funny. So they have been around when a supposed gravity change did not take place yet? Can you tell what is the reason of you posting this subject here, where do you want to take your argument?

First, you cannot put all pterodactyls or pterosaurs on one heap. You really have to distinguish what kind of pterodactyl/pterosaur your talking about. If you or others say that none where capable of flight because they were to heavy you sorely mistaken:
Image
This tree-dwelling pterodactyl would have lived about 120-125 million years ago in what is now China. It had a wingspan of about 250 millimetres, making it the smallest pterodactyl ever found (Source: Chuang Zhao)
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/02/12/2160378.htm
So please refine your argument.

Second, what Junglelord was referring to as form and function will hold in the case presented above. Actually too little is known about the precise habitats and niches pterodactyls/pterosaurs filled. One can make a estimated guess by making function comparisons with contemporary birds as there is some form resemblance, but one must also understand pterodactyls/pterosaurs do not belong to the Avians. They stand on their own. So encountering specialisations of certain species and trying to force on them abillities that might not apply to them is not quite fair.

So what is next? Certain dinosaurs being to big to be able to walk on land?
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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