The case for antediluvian telepathy

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The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:46 pm

For anybody who might never have seen it... the single most interesting thing on the bearfabrique website to my thinking is that article on pre-flood language and telepathy:

http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/babel.html

Several lines of argument lead to the same conclusion. One is Julian Jaynes' study, another is the study of language and the anomalous non-relationship of IndoEuropean and Semitic language groups despite the lack of any meaningful racial difference between the groups. I.e. The groups could not plausibly have split up more than three or four thousand years ago and that simply is not enough time for the languages to have lost every semblance of relationship other than for the tiny handful of borrowed words.

The conclusion I come to is that all language prior to the flood was telepathic.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby mague » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:02 am

Acoustical/vocal language. Just like many animals do it. The sounds are not exact "Morse codes". They are sounds transporting emotions. Such is still in use in the European mountains. People shout sounds from one mountain to the next one all over the valley. The sounds are no language and have no meaning. The emotions they carry do have meanings. Still the dialogs can be very detailed.

The second part is body language. Everyone reading here is able to tell anyone anyplace on earth that he is hungry, tired, sick or happy. This is universal.

We do have two emotional domains. The spiritual emotions like happyness or sadness and the physical emotions like physical pain, hunger, thurst. Any emotion within those two spheres is bound to gesture and sounds. Since we all have the same body, we all understand each other and many animals on this level.

I ll agree though, there is telepathy out there. Between members of the same species and members of different species. Even between domains like flaura and fauna or biological based and mineral based beings. We are able to connect via the 2nd or 1st dimension. Most plants communicate in the 2nd dimension for example.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby mague » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:35 am

Past the emotional language the brain starts to kick in. This is where different regions develop different languages or the babel effect.

At some point the brain recognizes the opposite pairs. Hot-cold, hurt-please, hungry-stuffed.

Some went the path to basically reverse the vocal emotion. Like hurt is ouch and pleasing then hcuo. In japanese like or love is ski. Dislike sounds like kss. This is almost reverse.

Other regions just negated vocal emotions. Like tasty is hmmmm and erhmmm is not-tasty. Which later might imply that er is the word for not.

Another way is opposite accentuation. Where is like hmmm is tasty and not-tasty. But the accentuation is opposite.

Much later then people start to travel and meet other people. Then their language starts to mix and eventually creates an almost new language.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:30 am

The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit, by a YEC, based entirely on Jaynes, de Grazzia and the Bible. Aside from the biblical passages, it provides no sources and contains several glaring factual inaccuracies, e.g. Jaynes was a psychologist not a classicist - hence the rubbish he wrote about voices in the head as per the Iliad.

Taken from: Fulcanelli. In The Dwellings Of The Philosophers. pp33-34
De Cyrano Bergerac (26) gives an account of this tradition when, as a new inhabitant of a world near the sun, hermetic cabala is explained to him by "a naked little man seated on a stone", an expressive figure of simple, naked
truth seated on the natural stone of the philosophers.
"I do not remember if I spoke to him first", says the great Initiate, "or if he was the one who questioned me; but I have a very fresh memory, as if I were still hearing them, of how he talked to me for three long hours in a language which I know I had never heard and which bears no relationship with any language of this world, but which I understand more quickly and more intelligibly than that of my wet nurse. He explained to me, when I inquired about such a marvelous thing, that in sciences there was a truth, beyond which we always found ourselves away from simplicity, and that the more an idiom strayed from this truth the more it went below our conception and became more difficult to understand. Similarly", he continued, "in music this truth is never encountered without our soul, immediately elevated, blindly going for it. We don’t see it but we sense that Nature sees it; without being able to understand how it absorbs us, it cannot but delight us, although we cannot know where it is. And it is the same thing with languages.
Whoever encounters this truth of letters, of words, and of continuity can never, while expressing himself, fall below conception: his speech is always equal to his thoughts; and because you do not have knowledge of this perfect
language, you do not know what to say, not knowing the order or the words which could express what you imagine". I told him that the first man of our world indubitably used this language, since each name that he imposed on each thing declared its essence. He interrupted me and continued: "This language is not simply necessary to express everything that the mind conceives, but without it we cannot be understood by all. Since this idiom is the instinct or the voice of Nature, it must be understandable by everything that lives in the midst of Nature. This is why, if you knew it, you could communicate and disclose all your thoughts to animals, and animals to you all of theirs (27), because it is the very language of Nature by which she makes herself understood by all animals. Therefore be no longer surprised by the ease with which you understand the meaning of a language which your ears have never heard.
When I speak, your soul encounters, with each one of my words, the Truth that is gropingly looking for; and although its reason does not understand it, it has within it a nature which cannot but understand it".

However, this secret, universal, indefinite language, in spite of the importance and the truth of its expression, is in reality of Greek origin and genius, as our author teaches us his History of the Birds. He has some very old oak trees speak --- an allusion to the language which the Druids used ( [*78-1] --- Druidai, from [*78-2] ---Drys, oak) --- in
this manner: "Think of the oak trees which we feel you are looking at: it is we who are speaking to you, and if you are astonished that we speak the language used in the world whence you come, know that our first fathers are natives of it. They lived in Epire, in the forest of Dodona, where their natural goodness moved them to give oracles to the
afflicted people who consulted them. For this purpose, they had learned the Greek language, the most universal then in existence, so as to be understood". Hermetic cabala was known in Egypt, at least by the priestly caste, as shown by the invocation of the Leyden Papyrus: "I invoke you, the most powerful of gods who has created everything you born of yourself, who sees everything, without being seen... I invoke you under the name you possess in the language of the birds, in that of hieroglyphics, in that of the Jews, in that of the Egyptians, in that of the cynocephales... in that
of the sparrow hawk in the hieratic language". We also find this idiom among the Incas, sovereigns of Peru until the time of the Spanish conquest; the ancient writers called it lengua general (universal language), and lengua cortesana (language of the court), that is, diplomatic language, since it contains a double meaning corresponding to a double
science, one apparent, the other profound ( [*78-3] diple, double, and [*78-4], mathe, science). "The cabala", says Abbot Perroquet (28) , "was an introduction to the study of all sciences".
(26) De Cyrano Bergerac, L’Autre Monde. Histoire comique des Etats et Empires du Soleil (The Other World, Comical History of the States and Empires of the Sun), Paris, Bauche, 1910. J.J. Pauvert publisher, Paris, 1962, p. 170
.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby junglelord » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:00 pm

I must be special or luck, or something. I had my first telepathic experinence before I had a precongnative dream at ten. I think I was eight. It involved a seniors arm stuck in an old washing machince roller. I remember it clear as a bell to this day. I have had others. I know that Crows are telepathic, at least with me. I am also telepathic with my best friend, who oddly enough is like Criss Angle or David Blaine, a professional magician....he blows my mind my best friend. Prestidigitation is a cool art.

We are both drummers and I believe years of drumming together, sparring in martial arts together, years of time together all combine to create a bond like that...its very reassuring in fact to have a connection like that with another spiritual being. Having someone else in your head is a good thing, if you have nothing to hide.
:mrgreen:
Last edited by junglelord on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:01 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit,...


Hi, Ev!!
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:31 pm

A flavor of the one argument can be had from the following consideration...

English and German split up a couple thousand years ago, yet about half the words are still recognizable from the one language to the other.

Consider the contrast between English and Russian however. The split between Germanic and Slavic languages has to be further back in time, presumably two to four thousand years back. Lots of water over the dam since then including two or three thousand years worth of Slavic people having to deal with Asian tribes which Germanac people never had to deal with, and around 300 years worth of being under the thumb of the Golden Horde. Lots of words figure to be different; nonetheless there are still large numbers of basic things which remain very similar or nearly the same:
  • Family members: nearly identical; 'brat(brother); seestra(sister)), mat(mother, declines to 'materi' etc), the 'at' part of отец is the same as the 'pat' in 'pater/father) etc.
  • Wine/water/milk: (vino, woda, moloko)
  • Hot/cold/warm: teplo (tepid), holodno(cold)
  • IndoEuropean P/F words (because p's and f's were originally pronounced together: flame(plamiya), fall (pal, upal) etc.
  • Numbers: nearly identical, ah-din, dva, tri, chitere(quattro), pyat(pent) etc.
  • Cooking utensils: kotyol(kettle), lozhke(ladle/loeffel),nozh(knife)
  • Fire: ogon(agni/ignition/ignite)

etc. etc. and even many of the weird things like идти for walk, (я иду ты идеш etc) involve basic IndoEuropean ideas (it = step) which we still find in English ('iterate', 'itinerary' etc.) so that when we think something like "I iterate myself into the store", something like "Я иду в магазин" doesn't sound quite so strange.

Again this is with two languages which have been separated for a very long time and there does not appear to be a reason to think that the IndoEuropean and Semitic groups have been separated much longer than that. If IE and Semitic groups ever had a spoken language in common, you'd expect at least some of the things mentioned above to be the same or similar; yet in real life, [b]NONE [/b]of those basic things are the same or similar. All you have between IE and Semitic languages is a tiny handful of borrowed words for odd items.

IE and Semitic groups came down on opposite sides of the Caucasus mountains after the flood, and were separated by those mountains after the fall of the tower of Babel for that critical little period of a century or two while spoken speech was being devised. That's why the language groups are unrelated. Spoken speech as we know it had never been used prior to that.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:38 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit, by a YEC....


My position on the age of the Earth is well known, and there is no rational reason for anybody to be calling me a YEC.

I assume the age of the Earth to be basically unknowable and would guess it to be in the range of a few hundred thousand to a couple of million years if I had to guess it. That is, the planet viewed as a collection of rocks. I would guess the age of the present incarnation of our living world to be ballpark for 5K - 10K as per the bible, and for previous creations which have existed on our planet to be in the range of 10K to a couple hundred K but again that's just guessing and nobody to my thinking could do much more than guess those kinds of figures with the information we have.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:38 pm

tholden wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit,...


Hi, Ev!!

Eh?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:59 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
tholden wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit,...


Hi, Ev!!

Eh?



Mistake on my part, sorry. In the past there'd only been one person who ever had any sort of visceral reaction to this thesis.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby mague » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:31 pm

Regarding language and telepathy it is my opinion that both have nothing in common. Actually our currently high developed language is what prevents us from a more natural awareness of telepathy. I always tell people that telepathy is the world beyond the words. Its is a deeper layer in our bubble of awareness indeed.

Telepathy is multilayered. There are personal (frequencies)/resonances just as there is a global layer within the collective. And there are more telepathic independant communication layers. Nowadays those layers are as spoiled as our radio frequency bands or earths orbit.

Contrary to the many conspiracy theories i see the jamming and distracting from those layers as self defence based on a total missunderstanding of the situation. There are always some "evil" exploiters, but the main reason is the inability to define certain signals within those layers. One of them, which i have "seen" myself, is a pulse that stimulates conscience. Those who comitted "sin" (not necessarliy sin in a biblical meaning. Rather similar to changing the charge of "consciousness photons") begin to interpret this pulse as a threat. Thats why certain groups of people began to build "shields" against a threat that isnt one.

The 2nd missinterpretation is that one of the telepathic layers transports global, galactic and intergalactic informations. People got informations they defined as commands and resistet those commands because they wanted to be individual. (moses anyone ?) But most of those commands where not commands but help/warnings. If i see a rock flying and tell you to duck then you may define this as help or command. Your problem :P There is no real evil... to master ego is part of our species development. There may be a deadline for this development... but that a different topic.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby mague » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:37 am

Grey Cloud wrote:The bearfabrique article is simplistic bullshit, by a YEC, based entirely on Jaynes, de Grazzia and the Bible. Aside from the biblical passages, it provides no sources and contains several glaring factual inaccuracies, e.g. Jaynes was a psychologist not a classicist - hence the rubbish he wrote about voices in the head as per the Iliad.

Taken from: Fulcanelli. In The Dwellings Of The Philosophers. pp33-34
.


The voices are again a misinterpretation. This is ego based. Only ego wants to understand words. But, no matter how well trained, our speech center is not able to fully translate the signals. The ego has to step aside when one "soul" communicates to another "soul". Usually it can take hours to decades untill the intellect is able to grasp what was "spoken" in only one minute. The best we can do is to observe the transmission. But understanding with the brain in real time is impossible.

Fulcanelli was a hard read for me. I am not sure if i understand him. I have problem to agree on the birds and trees.
Birds do not express, they act. Their "language" is based on action. They have no intermediate step between impulse and performance. Difficult to explain.. a bird never would stand in front of you and tell you how to make pancake. He would make pancakes and "talk" about what he is doing right in that moment. In most cases all other birds in the audience of the cooking show would support him by creating a background and joints. Birds create 3 dimensional sound sculptures which have joints where every birs is able to link in his sounds. Traditional bands, for example in japan, do the same btw. They create 3D stereoeffects without any electric amplifiers. Its a bird orchestra, just they dont write operas. They think opera and then do opera and the opera will always tell about what they do right now.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby tholden » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:16 am

mague wrote:Regarding language and telepathy it is my opinion that both have nothing in common. Actually our currently high developed language is what prevents us from a more natural awareness of telepathy. I always tell people that telepathy is the world beyond the words. Its is a deeper layer in our bubble of awareness indeed.....



To my own thinking, a careful reading of Jaynes' findings forbids that sort of interpretation. What appears to be the case, is that the human brain contains something which originally amounted to something strongly resembling a radio transmitter/receiver, and that the human brain and mind were originally hard-wired for a very advanced form of communication, which is no longer possible due to some change in the planet's environment.

Jaynes was a psych prof at Princeton and, by avocation, a philologist, which is what Nietzsche did for a living but is no longer a viable profession. He noticed that there were two parts to the Iliad i.e. a newer part in which people behaved roughly as we do, and an older part in which nobody ever stopped to make a decision or figure which way to proceed. At every point at which you or I would have to stop and try to determine a next step, those people were being told what to do by inner voices which they referred to as gods and goddesses. Moreover, the same thing was found in literature from throughout the med basin at the same time period.

In other words, what you or I would call schizophrenia, the people of the Iliad would have called normal, and what we call normal, they would have called retarded if not insane.

Jaynes figured something like

Okay, here I am at a major university where they pay me to teach, I know they have a medical school since I go there to get cuts sewn up and what not, and they probably have a neuro-physiology department, what the hell...


And he went there and asked what if anything there might be in the human brain which would cause anybody to hear voices with no speakers associated, and he must have figured there was no real chance of them having any sort of an answer to that but it couldn't hurt anything to ask, and they replied something like

Oh, that, yeah, c'mon over here and we'll show you what that is...


You can well imagine that Jaynes was stupefied. What they showed him of course is that there is a right-side analog to the speech (Wernicke) area in the left side of the brain and a bridge crossover between the two:

Image

and that when that right side region is stimulated with electrical probes as is the case in certain experiments involving epileptics, then more often than not, the subjects claim to be hearing voices, as real as if you or I were speaking to them.

Jaynes of course accepted an evolutionary paradigm and referred to the right side analog as a "hallucinatory" area and to the voices as "audible hallucinations".

Nonetheless that would require that man had evolved an organ which had no other purpose than to cause him to experience hallucinations, and evolution (to the extent that it ever works) does not work that way at all. A group of humans evolving the ability to hallucinate would very quickly be overwhelmed and annihilated by other groups of humans who had remained sane.

Jaynes had limited his studies to a period of time (roughly from Moses to Alexander) during which the use of this right side analog area was becoming increasingly dysfunctional and was in fact being ground out of existence by a rapid process of attrition. What he needed to investigate was the use of this organ during the true antediluvian period when that organ was involved in man's normal system of communication.
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby mague » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:24 am

I am convinced that some people are actually posessed. Most people we think are shizoid are posessed or cut in two half. In most cases and modern times they are cut through on the vertical axis, a few are cut trough on the horizontal axis. Very religious people tend to push all "evil" below the belly button and the "good" is above the belly button. Sometimes this escalates and then is what i call true shizophrenia. Glue them together and the inner dialog stops. They keep talking to them selves to confirm the own ego. Sometimes it happens to very, very lonesome people too. Those are rather old school. Nowadays people are cut vertical. Its left vs. right side nowadays. The symptoms are the same. Once two sides are torn apart for a long time external energies are penetrating the person. Not deamons. The range is from guardian spirits to destructive being.

On rare occasions you do find people who hear voices, because their vegetative nervous system tries to contact them. Those are usually warning signs of an upcomming heavy physical sickness.

But when you hear a voice tellung you:

voice: hey, come here
me : where are you ?
voice: just a bit down the forest path and next path at the crossing to the left..
perosn is walking down and going left at the crossing (yeah, there was a crossing)
And then person stany only 5 meters away froma huge deer and he is looking at the perosn with warm, friendly eyes...

... then ist telepathy.

About the left and right side speech centers in the brain... We do know that people are able to relearn how to walk after an accident. We dont know if a person 50.000 years ago had those two oppsoite speech centers in their brain. Probably they are just configured synapses due to the heavy usage of language for the last few thousand years. Hen or egg ?
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Re: The case for antediluvian telepathy

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:31 am

Hi Mague,
You wrote:
Fulcanelli was a hard read for me. I am not sure if i understand him. I have problem to agree on the birds and trees.
Maybe you do understand him. In your previous post you wrote:
I always tell people that telepathy is the world beyond the words. Its is a deeper layer in our bubble of awareness indeed.

Fulcanelli was/is an Adept of Alchemy (as distinct from spagyrics or archemy) so he is not necessarily talking about the mundane or physical realm.
I understand him to be talking about a mthod or mode of communication which is beyond the verbal and possibly beyond the telepathic. He apears to be talking about the language of thought itself:
and which bears no relationship with any language of this world
. He is not talking about a universal language as such but the actual language of the Universe:
This language is not simply necessary to express everything that the mind conceives, but without it we cannot be understood by all. Since this idiom is the instinct or the voice of Nature, it must be understandable by everything that lives in the midst of Nature.
This 'voice of Nature' adapts itself to the ways and means of everything in Nature. Therefore in order for in order for a human to communicate with a plant, animal or mineral Nature, or the Universe if one prefer, must act as an intermediary - a sort of universal translator if you will. In other words, the human must be attuned to Nature in order to communicate with, say, a blackbird. It is not necessary to attune to the blackbird per se. The same would be true with regard to daimons or whatever you want to call them.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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