Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

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Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby tholden » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:56 am

The Bible shows a snake speaking with humans in a natural way but offers no other elucidation on the subject.

In his dialog titled "The Statesman", Plato goes into a good deal more detail; ancients clearly viewed communication with other species as a widespread and common thing prior to the flood.

Nonetheless, there is no way humans could ever communicate with animals using spoken language, in fact the ONLY reason chimps and gorillas cannot be taught to speak English is that they lack voluntary control over breathing (which Elaine Morgan notes is an adaptation for aquatic life). Communication with animals would have to be via something other than our present spoken speech.

Some of the gorillas which have learned to communicate via deaf signs show IQs in the 100 - 110 range, which is more than adequate for half of all jobs in the US.


From Plato's "The Staesman":

Y. Soc. Certainly that is quite consistent with what has preceded; but tell me, was the life which you said existed in the reign of Cronos in that cycle of the world, or in this? For the change in the course of the stars and the sun must have occurred in both.

Str. I see that you enter into my meaning;-no, that blessed and spontaneous life does not belong to the present cycle of the world, but to the previous one, in which God superintended the whole revolution of the universe; and the several parts the universe were distributed under the rule. certain inferior deities, as is the way in some places still There were demigods, who were the shepherds of the various species and herds of animals, and each one was in all respects sufficient for those of whom he was the shepherd; neither was there any violence, or devouring of one another or war or quarrel among them; and I might tell of ten thousand other blessings, which belonged to that dispensation. The reason why the life of man was, as tradition says, spontaneous, is as follows: In those days God himself was their shepherd, and ruled over them, just as man, over them, who is by comparison a divine being, still rules over the lower animals. Under him there were no forms of government or separate possession of women and children; for all men rose again from the earth, having no memory, of the past. And although they had nothing of this sort, the earth gave them fruits in abundance, which grew on trees and shrubs unbidden, and were not planted by the hand of man. And they dwelt naked, and mostly in the open air, for the temperature of their seasons, was mild; and they had no beds, but lay on Soft couches of grass, which grew plentifully out of: the earth. Such was the life of man in the days of Cronos, Socrates; the character of our present life which is said to be under Zeus, you know from your own experience. Can you, and will you, determine which of them you deem the happier?

Y. Soc. Impossible.

Str. Then shall I determine for you as well as I can?

Y. Soc. By all means.

Str. Suppose that the nurslings of Cronos, having this boundless leisure, and the power of holding intercourse, not only with men, but with the brute creation, had used all these advantages with a view to philosophy, conversing with the brutes as well as with one another, and learning of every nature which was gifted with any special power, and was able to contribute some special experience to the store of wisdom there would be no difficulty in deciding that they would be a thousand times happier than the men of our own day. Or, again, if they had merely eaten and drunk until they were full, and told stories to one another and to the animals - such stories as are now attributed to them-in this case also, as I should imagine, the answer would be easy. But until some satisfactory witness can be found of the love of that age for knowledge and: discussion, we had better let the matter drop, and give the reason why we have unearthed this tale, and then we shall be able to get on.

In the fulness of time, when the change was to take place, and the earth-born race had all perished, and every soul had completed its proper cycle of births and been sown in the earth her appointed number of times, the pilot of the universe let the helm go, and retired to his place of view; and then Fate and innate desire reversed the motion of the world. Then also all the inferior deities who share the rule of the supreme power, being informed of what was happening, let go the parts of the world which were under their control. And the world turning round with a sudden shock, being impelled in an opposite direction from beginning to end, was shaken by a mighty earthquake, which wrought a new destruction of all manner of animals. Afterwards, when sufficient time had elapsed, the tumult and confusion and earthquake ceased, and the universal creature, once more at peace attained to a calm, and settle down into his own orderly and accustomed course, having the charge and rule of himself and of all the creatures which are contained in him, and executing, as far as he remembered them, the instructions of his Father and Creator, more precisely at first, but afterwords with less exactness. The reason of the falling off was the admixture of matter in him; this was inherent in the primal nature, which was full of disorder, until attaining to the present order. From God, the constructor; the world received all that is good in him, but from a previous state came elements of evil and unrighteousness, which, thence derived, first of all passed into the world, and were then transmitted to the animals. While the world was aided by the pilot in nurturing the animals, the evil was small, and great the good which he produced, but after the separation, when the world was let go, at first all proceeded well enough; but, as time went there was more and more forgetting, and the old discord again held sway and burst forth in full glory; and at last small was the good, and great was the admixture of evil, and there was a danger of universal ruin to the world, and the things contained in him. Wherefore God, the orderer of all, in his tender care, seeing that the world was in great straits, and fearing that all might be dissolved in the storm and disappear in infinite chaos, again seated himself at the helm; and bringing back the elements which had fallen into dissolution and disorder to the motion which had prevailed under his dispensation, he set them in order and restored them, and made the world imperishable and immortal.


And this is the whole tale, of which the first part will suffice to illustrate the nature of the king. For when the world turned towards the present cycle of generation, the age of man again stood still, and a change opposite to the previous one was the result. The small creatures which had almost disappeared grew in and stature, and the newly-born children of the earth became grey and died and sank into the earth again. All things changed, imitating and following the condition of the universe, and of necessity agreeing with that in their mode of conception and generation and nurture; for no animal; was any longer allowed to come into being in the earth through the agency of other creative beings, but as the world was ordained to be the lord of his own progress, in like manner the parts were ordained to grow and generate and give nourishment, as far as they could, of themselves, impelled by a similar movement. And so we have arrived at the real end of this discourse; for although there might be much to tell of the lower animals, and of the condition out of which they changed and of the causes of the change, about men there is not much, and that little is more to the purpose. Deprived of the care of God, who had possessed and tended them, they were left helpless and defenceless, and were torn in pieces by the beasts, who were naturally fierce and had now grown wild. And in the first ages they were still without skill or resource; the food which once grew spontaneously had failed, and as yet they knew not how to procure it, because they-had never felt the pressure of necessity. For all these reasons they were in a great strait; wherefore also the gifts spoken of in the old tradition were imparted to man by the gods, together with so much teaching and education as was indispensable; fire was given to them by Prometheus, the arts by Hephaestus and his fellow-worker, Athene, seeds and plants by others. From these is derived all that has helped to frame human life; since the care of the Gods, as I was saying, had now failed men, and they had to order their course of life for themselves, and were their own masters, just like the universal creature whom they imitate and follow, ever changing, as he changes, and ever living and growing, at one time in one manner, and at another time in another. Enough of the story, which may be of use in showing us how greatly we erred in the delineation of the king and the statesman in our previous discourse.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:37 pm

Plato isn't suggesting that the animals spoke Greek or that the Greeks spoke Gorilla.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby tholden » Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:32 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Plato isn't suggesting that the animals spoke Greek or that the Greeks spoke Gorilla.


Correct. He appears to be suggesting that they had some other and better way to communicate.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby StefanR » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:54 pm

A little quote from Taylor's
INTRODUCTION
TO THE
PHILOSOPHY AND WRITINGS OF PLATO

This seems to give a nice explanation of what Grey Cloud might have meant, I'm not sure. But I must say that perhaps also some confusion can arise because of the translation one uses. I will try to find Taylor's version as it's fun to see how different it can be read.

"But those," says Proclus, "who treat of divine concerns in an indicative manner, either speak symbolically and fabulously, or through images. And of those who openly announce their conceptions, some frame their discourses according to science, but others according to inspiration from the gods. And he who desires to signify divine concerns through symbols is Orphic, and, in short, accords with those who write fables respecting the gods. But he who does this through images is Pythagoric. For the mathematical disciplines were invented by the Pythagorean in order to a reminiscence of divine concerns, to which through these as images, they endeavour to ascend. For they refer both numbers and figures to the gods, according to the testimony of their historians. But the enthusiastic character, or he who is divinely inspired, unfolding the truth itself concerning the gods essentially, perspicuously ranks among the highest initiators. For these do not think proper to unfold the divine orders, or their idioms, to their familiars through veils, but announce their powers and their numbers in consequence of being moved by the gods themselves. But the tradition of divine concerns according to science is the illustrious, prerogative of the Platonic philosophy. For Plato alone, as it appears to me of all those who are known to us, has attempted methodically to divide and reduce into order the regular progression of the divine genera, their mutual difference, the common idioms of the total orders, and the distributed idioms in each."

Again, since Plato employs fables, let us in the first place consider whence the ancients were induced to devise fables, and in the second place, what the difference is between the fables of philosophers and those of poets. In answer to the first question then, it is necessary to know that the ancients employed fables looking to two things, viz. nature, and our soul. They employed them by looking to nature, and the fabrication of things, as follows. Things unapparent are believed from things apparent, and incorporeal natures from bodies. For seeing the orderly arrangement of bodies, we understand that a certain incorporeal power presides over them; as with respect to the celestial bodies, they have a certain presiding motive power. As we therefore see that our body is moved, but is no longer so after death, we conceive that it was a certain incorporeal power which moved it. Hence, perceiving that we believe things incorporeal and unapparent from things apparent and corporeal, fables came to be adopted, that we might come from things apparent to certain unapparent natures; as, for instance, that on hearing the adulteries, bonds, and lacerations of the gods, castrations of heaven, and the like, we may not rest satisfied with the apparent meaning of such like particulars, but may proceed to the unapparent, and investigate the true signification. After this manner, therefore, looking to the nature of things, were fables employed.

But from looking to our souls, they originated as follows: While we are children we live according to the phantasy, but the phantastic part is conversant with figures, and types, and things of this kind. That the phantastic part in us therefore may be preserved, we employ fables in consequence of this part rejoicing in fables. It may also be said that a fable is nothing else than a false discourse shadowing forth the truth: for a fable is the image of truth. But the soul is the image of the natures prior to herself; and hence the soul very properly rejoices in fables, as an image in an image. As we are therefore from our childhood nourished in fables, it is necessary that they should be introduced. And thus much for the first problem, concerning the origin of fables.

In the next place let us consider what the difference is between the fables of philosophers and poets. Each therefore has something in which it abounds more than, and something in which it is deficient from the other. Thus, for instance, the poetic fable abounds in this, that we must not rest satisfied with the apparent meaning, but pass on to the occult truth. For who, endued with intellect, would believe that Jupiter was desirous of having connection with Juno, and on the ground, without waiting to go into the bed-chamber. So that the poetic fable abounds, in consequence of asserting such things as do not suffer us to stop at the apparent, but lead us to explore the occult truth. But it is defective in this, that it deceives those of a juvenile age. Plato therefore neglects fable of this kind, and banishes Homer from his Republic; because youth on hearing such fables, will not be able to distinguish what is allegorical from what is not.

Philosophical fables, on the contrary, do not injure those that go no further than the apparent meaning. Thus, for instance, they assert that there are punishments and rivers under the earth: and if we adhere to the literal meaning of these we shall not be injured. But they are deficient in this, that as their apparent signification does not injure, we often content ourselves with this, and do not explore the latent truth. We may also say that philosophic fables look to the enemies of the soul. For if we were entirely intellect alone, and had no connection with phantasy, we should not require fables, in consequence of always associating with intellectual natures. If again, we were entirely irrational, and lived according to the phantasy, and had no other energy than this, it would be requisite that the whole of our life should be fabulous. Since, however, we possess intellect, opinion, and phantasy, demonstrations are given with a view to intellect; and hence Plato says that if you are willing to energize according to intellect, you will have demonstrations bound with adamantine chains; if according to opinion, you will have the testimony of renowned persons; and if according to the phantasy, you have fables by which it is excited; so that from all these you will derive advantage.

Plato therefore rejects the more tragical mode of mythologizing of the ancient poets, who thought proper to establish an arcane theology respecting the gods, and on this account devised wanderings, castrations, battles and lacerations of the gods, and many other such symbols of the truth about divine natures which this theology conceals;--this mode he rejects, and asserts that it is in every respect most foreign from erudition. But he considers those mythological discourses about the gods as more persuasive and more adapted to truth, which assert that a divine nature is the cause of all good, but of no evil, and that it is void of all mutation, comprehending in itself the fountain of truth, but never becoming the cause of any deception to others. For such types of theology Socrates delivers in the Republic.

All the fables therefore of Plato guarding the truth in concealment, have not even their externally apparent apparatus discordant with our undisciplined and unperverted anticipations of divinity. But they bring with them an image of the mundane composition in which both the apparent beauty is worthy of divinity, and a beauty more divine than this is established in the unapparent lives and powers of its causes.

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/taylor_plato01.htm
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby RayTomes » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:55 pm

Even cats can understand English. Not sure about Greek. ;-)
Our cat understands English but cannot speak it.
A friend taught his cat 20 commands in each of 5 or 6 languages.
Dogs are used by people to round up sheep etc, and understand a long list of commands.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby tholden » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:31 am

RayTomes wrote:Even cats can understand English. Not sure about Greek. ;-)
Our cat understands English but cannot speak it.
A friend taught his cat 20 commands in each of 5 or 6 languages.
Dogs are used by people to round up sheep etc, and understand a long list of commands.


Like I noted above, chimps and gorillas can use deaf signs perfectly well but lack the voluntary control of breathing needed for spoken speech. Gorillas who have learned deaf signs apparently show IQs in ranges which would be functional for humans and better than averages in several dysfunctional nations. There are also a number of cases in which African grey parrots have been taught to speak English reasonably well including the one case which Rupert Sheldrake first mentioned eight or nine years ago and which may have gotten turned into some sort of a black project or something since then.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby junglelord » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:40 am

Well, being Tarzan, I do speak to animals and I do understand their body-language and vocalizations.
I also know of a circus elephant from Germany, sold to America.
They thought they got a dumb and untrained elephant....then realized, he spoke german.

If you have followed Koko as I have for 20 years, you know that gorillas are much smarter then chimps, but I always knew that. If you look back before Koko, they said the opposite. Before Koko, they thought that apes were not capable of language skills. Koko makes up words, understands death, and is therefore a sential being.

I believe that the click language of african tribes is more applicable to universal human/animal language.

My pets are totally aware of langugage, not just command words that others limit their pets too.
I teach my animals, I do not train them. Intelligence is often guaged by language skills.
Training is a human concept that is foreign to intelligence based on triggers, like hypnotizing your animal to a command...teaching is a universal concept based on language, not triggers....do you understand what I am saying?

Animals parents teach, they do not train them with triggers.
If you train an animal you dumb it down to a hypnotized state.
If you teach an animal, like I do, then they will exhibit problem solving abilites that trained animals do not. For instance my dog opens doors, which can be a real pain...my cats pee in the toilet, on their own. I did not teach them these specific things, they problemed solved them on their own do to the fact I teach them other things, most importantly language.

The Horse Whisper, the Dog Whisper, they are not magical, just tuned in. I grew up on a hobby farm and beside a large national park. I have been given a special gift to actually treat animals as patients. Race horses, dogs, cats, all have had treatments from me...when you work with a race horse, you are working with a intelligence equal to your own and enough muscle to squish you, and treating pain with your hands via rolfing, tensegity and fascial anatomy is something most do not understand, but your patient, the race horse must give informed consent as well as the human patient. Otherwise he will squiss you if you start pushing on his sore spots with pressure....my ability to communicate my will to the horse is nonverbal and his consent is nonverbal, but if you think we are not in contact, well then your misguided.

On top of all this language and non language communication, I believe there is telepathic communication.
I do believe that crows are telepathic and I know I am telepathic with my best friend. Maybe years of Hemi-Sync and growing up alone with animals has given me a better understanding of these things, as most people are dumb as their dogs....and everyone is blown away by the intelligence of my pets...then I explain all I have said and the lights start to come on....hello is anybody home, or is 99% of the world brainwashed and hypnotized like their pets?
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby tholden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:27 pm

junglelord wrote:Well, being Tarzan, I do speak to animals and I do understand their body-language and vocalizations....


I know a story which you'd get a kick out of, and it's a true story far as I know but it's from before the internet age and you'd not be likely to find it on google searches. I saw articles about this a couple of times in the old Evening Star, which was the D.C. area's second newspaper before there was a Washington Times.

The story concerned a guy who claimed to be able to talk to horses. For most of the guy's life everybody around him had thought he was crazy, family disowned him and all that sort of thing. The only one person who believed him early on was his banker...

The guy was going to racetracks and doing whatever he did with the race horses and he noted that he was not trying to get any sort of complex information from them or discussing the Federalist Papers or Einstein's theories; basically just "asking" them how they felt. He said in a typical evening at one of the race tracks, there would usually be one race in which the top two or three horses did not appear to feel well but that third or fourth horse felt great, and he was in the habit of putting money down on that first horse who felt good. The guy was a millionaire several times over.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby RayTomes » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:08 am

Junglelord, I enjoyed your post about your animals. Great stuff!
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby mague » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:27 am

I once was in the swiss alps and fog cam up. I couldnt see for more then 3 meters and i knew there was a wall near me 800m deep. I was scared to move on. Then a daw came to me and "said" follow to me. I followed her and i am alive ;)

I had many, many encounters with intelligent and caring animals. Almost 3 decades back the animals where all i had. Suddenly they started to communicate. Its was a slow process like learning a foreign human language. I remmeber i once asked why the yspeak to me now and not earlier. They said they had mercy with me and that they dont talk to everybody. Contrary to Junglelord they teached me and not me teached them. This was a process over maybe 10 years where they showed me what is below earths surface. They have send me to meet the insects and learn their ways. Actually they sometimes still teach me something once in a while.

BTW. people over here say about mad people "They have a bird" or "it peeps in his mind" :D

First i was a bit scared, but then have read about the Blue jays of the north American tribes ;)
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:57 am

Oh Yeah, Blue Jays are telepathic too.
Good point, for some reason, I forgot them.
Brain injury.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: Plato on pre-flood communication with animals

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:00 pm

tholden wrote:
junglelord wrote:Well, being Tarzan, I do speak to animals and I do understand their body-language and vocalizations....


I know a story which you'd get a kick out of, and it's a true story far as I know but it's from before the internet age and you'd not be likely to find it on google searches. I saw articles about this a couple of times in the old Evening Star, which was the D.C. area's second newspaper before there was a Washington Times.

The story concerned a guy who claimed to be able to talk to horses. For most of the guy's life everybody around him had thought he was crazy, family disowned him and all that sort of thing. The only one person who believed him early on was his banker...

The guy was going to racetracks and doing whatever he did with the race horses and he noted that he was not trying to get any sort of complex information from them or discussing the Federalist Papers or Einstein's theories; basically just "asking" them how they felt. He said in a typical evening at one of the race tracks, there would usually be one race in which the top two or three horses did not appear to feel well but that third or fourth horse felt great, and he was in the habit of putting money down on that first horse who felt good. The guy was a millionaire several times over.

I charged $100/hr for race horses....and they would win after I treated them.
I made quite a name for myself that way, with horses that ran in Ottawa and Montreal.
Its big money, that industry, but personally I never gamble.
I actually would have had the opportunity to do what this man did, never thought about it though.
Like I said, I never gamble.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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