Plasma Mythology forum discussion

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:16 pm

Hi Aten,

You wrote:
GC I see nothing in your source that’s addresses the very simple question as to why the Egyptians coloured the sun red. The references I’ve supplied do at the very least refer to the Sun.
The point of my examples was to show that your view was overly-simplistic and that there was more to the Egyptian’s use of colour.

I’m surprised by your dismissal of Tour Egypt as been a "rung or two below" Schwaller. Many scholars consider the site to be a reliable source of information and they are often referred to in publications such as Ancient Egypt.
Scholars will refer to the site because it regurgitates the orthodox view. Have you read any of Schwaller’s works? If so, please feel free to say why he is in error.

I notice you didn’t mention my other source, Gay Robins, who has written at least 13 books, many covering the art of the Egyptians. Is she also, "a rung or two" below Schwaller?
I missed the reference to Robins first time around. I’ve never heard of her but a quick Google reveals her to be just another academic spouting the orthodox view. I would wager that her views on Egyptian art are based upon modern of art and that her views on women in Egyptian society are based on modern feminism (i.e. with no intimation of the philosophy of the Egyptians themselves).
I don’t know exactly how many books Schwaller authored but I have seven of them.

The mentioning of academics brings us to another advantage I have over you and others who have their own theory. You and these others rely on the scholars for an appeal to authority and then ignore them when their views are at odds with your theory.
I have no need of academic scholars and their theories as I get my knowledge from the ‘esotericists’, plus my own studies of various cultures and civilisations, and my meditations. Being in an altered state of consciousness really helps with understanding ancient texts, whether mythology, philosophy or scripture.

From Schwaller de Lubicz, The Egyptian Miracle, p120-121.
“FIRE, is the radiant state, participates in the dry and the hot.
Red……………….participates in violet and orange.
The Hot is Orange.

AIR, the volatile state, participates in the hot and the moist.
Yellow…………participates in Orange and Green.
The Moist is Green.

WATER, the liquid state, participates in the moist and the cold.
Blue………….participates in Green and Indigo.
The Cold is Green.

EARTH, the solid state, participates in the cold and the dry.
Indigo……………..participates in Blue and Violet.
The Dry is Violet.

[….]
If we depart for a moment from the field of ‘pure reasoning’ and examine the facts, we see that in the normal spectrum the measure of calorific intensities reveals a maximum of heat situated in the yellow-orange, which we have just seen as ‘hot’, while the heat intensity becomes very weak starting with indigo (which is called ‘cold’) and practically insignificant in the ultraviolet, all of which supports the metaphysical correspondences previously established.
If we compare the problem of colour with that of musical harmony, we realise that the numerical functions are identical. Let us recall that the ‘height’ of the tone (number of vibrations) is inversely proportionate to the length of the vibrating string, just as the number of vibrations of colours is inversely proportionate to their wavelength”. [Emphasis in the original]
I hand typed this so any typos are mine.

With regard to your comments about loincloths: Traditional African and Australian dress, to name but two obvious examples, still today consists of a loincloth (or less). The ancient Egyptians were African, modern Egyptians are largely of Arab stock and therefore wear Arab/Muslim costume. There is no need to invoke a changed Sun in order to explain the loincloths. And as StefanR alluded, there are plenty of images of folk wearing various other garb.

Your explanations of the turquoise trees, the cow etc in the image explain nothing about their relevance in that particular image. In other words, what is that image telling us; what knowledge/information is there? Every detail in the image is there for a reason. The image pertains to the sacred, it will have nothing to say about the sky outside.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby The Aten » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:22 am

Not that you'll accept my sources but here goes

‘Re (Ra) was the Egyptian sun god’ http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/re.htm

Countless hymns extol him as the divine power opening each day.

‘Homage to thee, O thou who risest in the horizon as Ra,
thou restest upon law unchangeable and unalterable.’

‘Thou passest over the sky, and every face watcheth thee and thy course, for thou hast been hidden from their gaze. Thou dost show thyself at dawn and at eventide day by day.’


(From the pyramid texts)

‘Re is the great light who shinest in the heavens.’

‘The lord of all lands ... praise Re when he riseth at the beginning of each day.’

Re is the ‘great light who shinest in the heavens ... Thou art glorious by reason of thy splendours.’


There are numerous other similar references in the BOTD and other sources such as Breasted's direct translations.

Sounds very much like the sun to me.

The Egyptians do show the sun circular! Even in hieroglyphic form it represents either the sun, day or time (How to read Hieroglyphs, Collier & Manley)

You are ascribing complected minds cultures that had the misfortune of living through 3,000 years of chaos.

A very basic question: the Egyptians had some 2000 gods in all, how many gods do you need to explain one of the most sunniest and driest climates in the world?

I look at all sources and draw my own conclusions I think its very unproductive and naive to see one source as gospel. Vigorous debate goes on between all Egyptologists as to interpreting the enigmatic world of the Egyptians.

In regards to colors I can explain most of them. Gender colour: men were traditionally painted red, women yellow. Here the AE's were merely emulating their celestial kingly counterparts (& the sun), the red mars always the warrior, Venus the seemingly the beautiful and passive 'yellow' queen. The men aspired to be red king as Mars appeared (and the Sun), this is why numerous kings also had the title "appearing like Re." and "Son of Re," (sa re). The divine Queen Venus as it began to hold on to its atmosphere appeared yellow, at it does today. The women duly portrayed themselves yellow. Although, as in the case of Hatsheput (Queen who would be king) we have an exception, she was painted red, this is because Venus/Hatshepsut (one of the many name given to Venus)ventured so close to earth as to appear as a red disk, hence Hatsheput's red flesh on her statues and images - she also adorned the very apt epithet "just and full of vitality like the sun god Re." both sun and Venus, at this particular time appearing Red.

Gary Gilligan

http://www.gks.uk.com/gks10/
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby The Aten » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:23 am

GC

Scholars will refer to the site because it regurgitates the orthodox view. Have you read any of Schwaller’s works? If so, please feel free to say why he is in error.

Never said he was in error, only that he doesn’t address the red sun.

The mentioning of academics brings us to another advantage I have over you and others who have their own theory. You and these others rely on the scholars for an appeal to authority and then ignore them when their views are at odds with your theory.

If you took time to understand the basis of my theory you would soon realize this couldn’t be further from the truth. My advantage over you and others is I’m able to take much of Egyptian art at face value. I've no need to meditate or invoke an altered state of consciousness to understand the ancients, just plain simple observations mixed in with a little common sense - and of course a bit of Velikovsky!

I have no need of academic scholars and their theories as I get my knowledge from the ‘esotericists’, plus my own studies of various cultures and civilisations, and my meditations. Being in an altered state of consciousness really helps with understanding ancient texts, whether mythology, philosophy or scripture.

I don’t know what you are on but good luck with this and your dismissal of academic scholars. As you seem to have sorted everything out in regards to the ancients perhaps you should write a book and inform us all. Although I hasten to add, I'd be very reluctant to purchase any book written by somebody in an "altered state of consciousness." Personally, I like to sit with the real world.

Gary Gilligan http://www.gks.uk.com/
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:45 am

Hi Aten,

‘Re (Ra) was the Egyptian sun god’ http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/re.htm
No. Re was an Egyptian Neter. Neters are cosmic or universal principles.

Countless hymns extol him as the divine power opening each day.
This is closer. The rising etc of the Sun (the star/planet) is symbolic of a particular universal principle (or principles). Re is more than just the Sun.

‘Homage to thee, O thou who risest in the horizon as Ra,
thou restest upon law unchangeable and unalterable.’
Ta da!
‘Re is the great light who shinest in the heavens.’
This is philosophical. The Sun shines in the sky (and upon the Earth). The cosmic principle which is called Re is the great light who shines in the heavens (universe).
Just becauses it says ‘light’ it does not necessarily follow that it is referring to visible- or sun- light.

Sounds very much like the sun to me.
This is because of your overly-simplistic view and your ignorance of ancient philosophy.

“In the spirit of the temple, Sirius plays the role of the great central fire for our sun (which is the eye of Ra and not Ra himself).” Schwaller, Sacred Science, p28.

“Ra is the Sun absolute. The Eye of Ra is the visible sun, giver of vitalising light and warmth, but also of burning fire. Aton is the solar disc, the sun’s materialisation. The Eye of Ra plays a very important role in the myth because it is the source of all life, this life which Horus represents in his function as subtle and sublimated fire. In legendary form it is said that one day ‘Ra had sent forth his Eye which did not return. So Ra sent Shu and Tefnut to bring it back… But the Eye was outraged when it returned because it found that another had grown in its stead’. And then Ra took the Eye and placed it on his brow in the likeness of a serpent. Since then, the solar Eye governs the entire world because this serpent became the symbol of Ra’s puissance. It is since that day that Shu was called Onuris which means He-Who-Has-Brought-Back-the-Far-off-Distance.
By this fact, the Eye of Ra which this Neter bears on his brow becomes the radiating Eye, the divine Word. It thus becomes the uraeus, the third eye of the King’s forehead, powerful protector and destroyer of Ra’s enemies….” Sacred Science, pp150-51.

“As has been said, Ra is not the sun itself, but rather the solar energy which, during the course of its daily cycle, animates all the organic functions of the human body, one after another, at each hour of the day and night. It is in this way that we are subject to it.” Sacred Science, p157.

“The hours of the day are to be found only in the tomb of Ramses VI, given with the name of the door preceding each hour, the name of the hour itself, and the name of the Neter which acts as its protector and also as guide to the solar barque. Certain details are given concerning the different phases. Toward the middle of the day, for instance, Ra must cross a sandbank and struggle against the serpent Apopis, the searing fire that has dried out the river. With noon, however, there begins the hour known as expansion of the heart, the hour which rises for Horus. During the ninth hour of the day (2 p.m. to 3 p.m.), Ra’s boat crosses the Iaru fields where barley and wheat grow five cubits high and are harvested by spirits. This hour bears the name of Mistress of Life, the hour when all nourishment is sublimated. This is an eloquent teaching on the correspondence of the time of the day with organic life in general. For Chinese acupuncture, noon is the hour of the heart, and 2 p.m. the hour of the small intestine.
It is in this fashion that texts and images are to be interpreted.” Sacred Science, p160.
All emphais in the original.

The Egyptians do show the sun circular! Even in hieroglyphic form it represents either the sun, day or time (How to read Hieroglyphs, Collier & Manley)
My mistake, I should have been more exact in my wording. Circular yes, but not as a (perfect) circle. See the image provided by MattEU at the top of this thread for instance. Either way, I’ll stick with Schwaller rather than the Egyptologists.

You are ascribing complected minds cultures that had the misfortune of living through 3,000 years of chaos
[I’m assuming you meant complex or complicated minds here]. You have absolutely zero proof that any culture lived through 3,000 years of chaos. Your inference that the people of these ancient cultures did not possess ‘complex or complicated’ minds is based entirely upon your own arrogance which is in turn based upon your own ignorance. Have you ever read any ancient literature? I approach ancient literature with the assumption that these people were smarter than me. That is one of the ways that I learn. Approaching such literature as the work of primitive minds only results in the confirmation of one’s own prejudices and ignorance, and leads to cognitive dissonance.

A very basic question: the Egyptians had some 2000 gods in all, how many gods do you need to explain one of the most sunniest and driest climates in the world?
A very basic answer: They did not have any gods; they had Neters. Nor did they have two thousand of them. There may well be 2,000 different names but the vast majority of these will be the names given to a particular aspect of a particular Neter.
The second part of your question is a non sequitur. The number of gods or Neters has nothing to do with an explanation of the climate. If you believe that Egyptian mythology is nothing more than a glorified weather report then you have missed the point. Do you think that African or Aboriginal mythology is also nothing more than an explanation of a sunny and dry climate? Conversely, do you think that Nordic myth is only an explanation of a cold and damp climate?

I look at all sources and draw my own conclusions I think its very unproductive and naive to see one source as gospel. Vigorous debate goes on between all Egyptologists as to interpreting the enigmatic world of the Egyptians.
No you do not. You have read Velikovsky and drawn your conclusions from him. You have relied on mainstream academia for your information on Egypt but ignored it when it does not agree with your neo-Velikovskyism. You study Egypt in isolation from other ancient cultures.
Vigorous debate goes on in academia because they are no closer to understanding Egypt today than they were a century ago. And for similar reasons to those you suffer from.
I do not treat Schwaller as gospel. I trust him as an author because his views on Egypt are in agreement with the views of other authors on other ancient cultures, and he is not a one-trick pony who has only studied Egypt. He is nevertheless the best writer on Egypt I have come across and I heartily recommend him. You should try him, though I suspect cognitive dissonance will kick in and you will dismiss him.

Your explanation of colours is based upon your preconceptions and prejudices, not on Egyptian philosophy. If there was all this going on in the sky for several thousand years, why is it that in not one ancient culture, did anyone not just write down what was happening? Why did they not just paint it?

If you took time to understand the basis of my theory you would soon realize this couldn’t be further from the truth. My advantage over you and others is I’m able to take much of Egyptian art at face value. I've no need to meditate or invoke an altered state of consciousness to understand the ancients, just plain simple observations mixed in with a little common sense - and of course a bit of Velikovsky!
I looked at your website a year or two ago. Taking anything ancient (or modern for that matter) at face value is not an advantage, it is naivety.
With regard to meditation etc, you are arguing from ignorance. If all it took to understand ancient Egypt was the taking of things a face value and a little common sense then surely even the scholars would have worked it out after over a century of trying?

I don’t know what you are on but good luck with this and your dismissal of academic scholars. As you seem to have sorted everything out in regards to the ancients perhaps you should write a book and inform us all.
I smoke pot but one does not need to be on anything in order to meditate. Again you are arguing from ignorance and prejudice. I have not sorted out everything in regards to the ancients. On the contrary, I still have much to learn unlike you who, armed with Velikovsky, taking things at face value and a little common sense, have all the answers. My purpose in this thread (and others) was and is try to show that there is more to understanding an ancient culture than the simplistic literalist approach. This is especially true of the Egyptians. I don’t have the ego either to write a book or to write-off some of the greatest minds that humanity has thus far produced.

Although I hasten to add, I'd be very reluctant to purchase any book written by somebody in an "altered state of consciousness." Personally, I like to sit with the real world.
There you go again with your ignorance and prejudice. Are you suggetsing that it is possible to go to a non- or un- real world?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby The Aten » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:23 pm

Grey Cloud:

The question here is very simple and rather than trying to blind me with your none academic waffle please provide a very simply answer to what is a very simple question.

Let me make start the sentence for you.

The Egyptians coloured the Sun (or whatever you believe the ubiquitous red disk found on almost every tomb and temple wall the length and breath of the Nile to be) red, some with a yellow ringed cobra because...

I can answer this in two lines, and I've no need invoke the surreal, as follows...

The Egyptians coloured the Sun red, some with a yellow ring incorporating the uraeus because it appeared red with a highly charged yellow corona that literally spat fire and venom (Occam's razor).

Alternatively, show me one single golden glaring sun with a complete set of sunrays from ancient Egypt. We are looking for is a golden glaring ball as I would draw it, as a child would paint draw it, as most people would paint it (present company accepted). in other words, and staying in the real world, where's the sun?

Gary Gilligan http://www.gks.uk.com/
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:33 pm

The Egyptians coloured the Sun red, some with a yellow ringed cobra because...
… in accord with their highly-developed philosophy they represented things symbolically rather than literally in accordance with some simplistic theory.
How’s that?

You really think that your answer passes the test of Occam’s Razor?

To what non-academic waffle were you referring? And where did I invoke the surreal?

Consider this: If your theory is anywhere near correct then it should be reflected in all the world’s mythologies etc. Is it?
I subscribe to the view, which is not my own theory, that underlying all the world’s mythologies etc is one philosophy. I can support this with concrete examples from the world’s ancient literature etc.
(By 'mythologies etc', I mean mytholgy, philosophy, scriptures, ancient writngs generally, and anything else ancient that bears upon the subject).

On a more general note. I have read umpteen theories by neo-Velikovskians and they all share certain traits. No two of them agree yet each author is convinced that they, and only they, are correct. The standard of scholarship is more akin to journalism than scholarship per se. They invariably dumb-down ancient thinking to their level rather than try to raise their game to the level of the ancient thinkers.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby The Aten » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:44 am

GC,

As you have duly observed the Egyptian Sun is rarely a perfect circle, it is many times shown ‘squashed,’ as can be seen in Matt’s original post above and the link below. A quick Google will elicit many others.

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images/hathor_seth.jpg

Why was this? Is this also “in accord with their highly-developed philosophy” of representing things symbolically? Or could there be a very simple explanation drawn from actual real world observations? Could it be as I contend in accordance with some very simplistic theory – I think so!

The Sun isn’t a perfect sphere; its true shape is slightly squashed, very similar to the ‘squashed’ Egyptian Red Sun.

NASA spacecraft finds the Sun is not a perfect sphere (Oct 5, 2008)
Quote:

“Scientists using the RHESSI spacecraft have measured the roundness of the Sun with unprecedented precision. They find that it is not a perfect sphere. During years of high solar activity the Sun develops a thin "cantaloupe skin" that significantly increases its apparent oblateness: the Sun's equatorial radius becomes slightly larger than its polar radius.”

“During active phases of the solar cycle, these ridges emerge around the sun’s equator, brightening and fattening the “stellar waist.”
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/oblate_sun.html

Coincidence that the sun is 'squashed' similar to many Egyptian suns?

I don’t think so. How on earth could the Egyptians be aware of the fact that sun is slightly squashed unless actually drawn from physical observations? If we are merely dealing with “highly-developed symbolism” as you contend why not simple draw a perfect circle? This would undoubtedly be easier and quicker to draw (a marker and a bit of string).

This fully corroborates my stance, even down to the fact that the sun’s waist fattens during periods of increased solar activity. In other words, the very stuff that hazed the sun red also ‘fed the sun,’ thus increasing solar activity, resulting in a fattening of its equatorial regions - a squashed red sun.

To pre-empt the possibility of you perhaps invoking observations of a fattened red sun at sunset. This would contradict your whole “highly-developed philosophic symbolism” scenario. Inasmuch, if deriving from the sun’s ‘oblateness’ at sunset then we’re back to the question of where’s the corresponding daytime suns?

>>You really think that your answer passes the test of Occam’s Razor?

I’m in no doubt, but others can decide for themselves.

The Red Sun, cobra (CME) caught in action lashing out 'spiting fire and venom' along with golden bursts of flesh (“gold the flesh of the gods”).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/3157251517_3af1e7362c.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UPTKfhGvyoM/SmUM6I1Bn6I/AAAAAAAAG_s/pQW5QocvgXI/The%20Sun%20-%20Handle-shaped%20Prominence_thumb%5B2%5D.jpg?imgmax=800

How's about you put down the pipe down and join me in the real world ;)

An Ancient World in Chaos!

Gary Gilligan

http://www.gks.uk.com/
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:32 am

On 7th December I wrote:
1. Why do the Egyptians never show the Sun as circular?
On 8th December you wrote:
The Egyptians do show the sun circular! Even in hieroglyphic form it represents either the sun, day or time (How to read Hieroglyphs, Collier & Manley)
Now on 10th December you write:
As you have duly observed the Egyptian Sun is rarely a perfect circle, it is many times shown ‘squashed,’ as can be seen in Matt’s original post above and the link below.
You ask why this is. The short answer is: I don’t know. As for your answer involving oblateness and CMEs, are you suggesting that the Egyptians could see this with the naked eye?

How's about you put down the pipe down and join me in the real world?
I rarely smoke pipes nor do I smoke pot all the time. Again, your constant use of the term ‘real world’ displays your ignorance of modern consciousness studies or modern philosophy of the mind, as just two examples. What constitutes the ‘real’ is still very much open to debate in academia. Similarly there are numerous scientific studies on meditation, its effects and benefits etc. Some ancient recommendations:

"Then only will you see it, when you cannot speak of it; for the knowledge of it is deep silence and suppression of all the senses." Hermes Trimegistus (Lib. x.6)


'If any man makes search for truth with all his penetration, and would be led astray by no deceiving paths, let him turn upon himself the light of an inward gaze, let him bend by force the long-drawn wanderings of his thoughts into one circle; let him tell surely to his soul, that he has, thrust away within the treasures of his mind, all that he labours to acquire without. Then shall that truth, which now was hid in error's darkening cloud, shine forth more clear than Phoebus's self. For the body, though it brings material mass which breeds forgetfulness, has never driven forth all light from the mind. The seed of truth does surely cling within, and can be roused as a spark by the fanning of philosophy. For if it is not so, how do ye men make answers true of your own instinct when teachers question you? Is it not that the quick spark of truth lies buried in the heart's low depths?
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/to ... vision=div
Consolations of Philosophy Boethius Bk III, pp93-4.


Still the mind and the mud settles.
Do nothing and action comes of itself.
Tao Te Ching, 15. Bart Marshall trans.


Once again I have answered your questions, now will you do me the courtesy of answering the question I posed in my last post? To wit:
If your theory is anywhere near correct then it should be reflected in all the world’s mythologies. Is it?

I also stated:
I subscribe to the view, which is not my own theory, that underlying all the world’s mythologies etc is one philosophy. I can support this with concrete examples from the world’s ancient literature etc.
Here’s a couple of snippets pertaining to the Americas from mainstream scholars.

The people of the Southwest, along with the Southeast had full-time religious leaders with shrines or temple buildings. Most Native Americans believe that in the universe there exists an Almighty, a spiritual force that is the source of all life. The Almighty belief is not pictured as a man in the sky, but is believed to be formless and exist in the universe. The sun is viewed as the power of the Almighty. They are not worshipping the sun, but praying to the Almighty, and the sun is a sign and symbol for that. Native Americans show less interest in an afterlife unlike the Christians. They assume the souls of the dead go to another part of the universe where they have a new existence carrying on everyday activities like they were still alive. They are just in a different world.

http://inkido.indiana.edu/w310work/romac/swrelig.htm


IROQUOIAN COSMOLOGY
By J. N. B. HEWITT
From the Twenty-First Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology, 1899-1900
Washington D.C., Government Printing Office [1903]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/iro/irc/irc02.htm
[This is a century old so full of racism and cultural imperialism etc. GC]

A fact of great importance made evident in these texts is that anthropic persons, called man-beings in the accompanying translations, were, in Iroquoian thought, the primal beings. They were the first to exercise the functions and to experience the lot of their several kinds. Sometimes these first beings have been called the prototypes of the things of like kind which are to-day.Some of these beings were mere fictions, figures of speech made concrete and objective. They were not beasts, but they belonged to a rather vague class, of which man was the characteristic type. To speak with the logicians, no other deduction from the intension and the extension of the term oñgwe, man-being), appears sufficiently broad to set forth the true interpretation of the personages the narrative of whose lives and acts constitutes the subject matter of these texts. Among these primal beings may be named Daylight, Earthquake, Winter, Medicine, Wind, or Air, Life (germination), and Flower. So it seems evident from this fact that beast powers, the so-called beast gods, were not the first beings or chief actors at the beginning of time.

Beast gods appear later. In the development of Iroquoian thought, beasts and animals, plants and trees, rocks, and streams of water, having human or other effective attributes or properties in a paramount measure, were naturally regarded as the controllers of those attributes or properties, which could be made available by orenda or magic power. And thus began the reign of the beast gods, plant gods, tree gods, and their kind. The signification of the Iroquoian term usually rendered into English by the term "god" is "disposer," or "controller." This definition supplies the reason that the reputed controllers of the operations of nature received worship and prayers. To the Iroquois god and controller are synonymous terms.



Tulan and the Other Side of the Sea:
Unraveling a Metaphorical Concept from Colonial Guatemalan Highland
Sources
Frauke Sachse, University of Bonn
Allen J. Christenson, Brigham Young University

Colonial K'iche'an texts from the Guatemalan
highlands reflect a high degreeof poetic
complexity and exquisiteness. In particular, the
text of the Popol Vuh from the mid-16th century
relates the mythology and history of Postclassic
highland Maya culture in the form of continuous
parallel couplets, complex stylistic constructions
and symbolic language. But the other preserved
texts as well, the títulos, testaments, etc., are rich
in figurative conceptsand metaphors.
Translations of these Colonial texts have to
account for the difficulties that arise when
rendering this figurative metaphorical language
into formats and concepts that are
understandable in the chosen reference
language
.


The K'iche'an sources are teeming with
metaphorical concepts, the meaning of which
still remains quite opaque
. Many of those
metaphors have not survived in modern
K'iche'an languages or have never been recorded
in the Colonial dictionaries. Moreover, it has to
be allowed for that the modern meaning of
specific phrases or word images that continue to
be used might not correspond to their Classic
usage – and, indeed, there are many examples of
semantic reanalysis in modern Maya languages
that would not match with their Colonial
dictionary entries. In other instances, ideas and
concepts persist in contemporary oral traditions,
or we find them as literal translations into
Spanish. But their interpretation still remains
opaque, even though we might not be well aware of
it when analysing the sources. And as we shall show
in this paper, it is particularly challenging to
distinguish metaphor from literal meaning
.

….
In our search for
continuities, we should always be cautioned against
undue optimism when weaving ethnographic and
linguistic evidence from Colonial and contemporary
times into a single line of reasoning with different
types of evidence from the precolonial era (i.e. from
archaeological, epigraphic and iconographic
sources). Spatio-temporal divergence has to be taken
into account when attesting continuity. And with
respect to metaphorical analysis, the "lumping" of
evidence from different times and regions – and in
particular even from different languages – seems to
be an especially questionable undertaking.

Although the concrete narratives may vary
within the Maya area and throughout time,
creation is the central paradigm in Maya
mythology. The basic ideas and cornerstones of
the Maya ideology of origin seem to be
consistent from the late Preclassic period
through the Spanish conquest (Coe 1989, Taube
1993, 1996, 2004; Freidel et al. 1993, Schele &
Mathews 1998; Saturno et al. 2005). We under-
stand that in the Maya world view all creation
involves the underlying concept of birth from a
primordial sea in darkness. The world came into
being because the earth and the mountains arose
from the sea and the sky was lifted up from the
water. Creation thus involves "dawning."
The
dawn of the world as much as the dawn of
humanity finds an analogy in the concept of the
maize sprout that shoots out of the ground, from
the dark watery underworld into the light. The
life cycle of the maize plant is the archetypal
metaphor for Mesoamerican creation mythology
it pervades modern Maya oral traditions and
finds expression in precolonial Maya
iconography in the form of the narrative that
pictures the death, rebirth and resurrection of
the Maize God
(see Taube 1985, Carlsen &
Prechtel 1991:28).
With regard to the last two highlighted parts, I’m sure you recognise the similarities with the Egyptian creation myth and the story of Osiris.
The above are from what I have lying around on this computer. I could furnish examples from other continents but I haven’t the time to do the digging.

Incidentally, Schwaller has some interesting things to say about gravity, EM and positive and negative ions (though he doesn’t use the word ‘plasma’). He also mentions catastrophe which he recognises as being cyclical.

Looking forward to seeing your evidence from other cultures.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby mague » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:12 am

The Egyptians believed that the heart, rather than the brain, was the source of human wisdom, as well as emotions, memory, the soul and the personality itself. Notions of physiology and disease were all connected in concept to the heart, and it was through the heart that God spoke, giving ancient Egyptians knowledge of God and God's will. For this reason it was considered the most important of the body's organs.


Perception of the universe with the heart:

Orange moon
Green stars
Woman with flower

There has to be a "scientific" link between consciousness, emotion and (plasma) mythology, else we dont get the true meanings of the ancients expressions. Consciousness and emotion do not exclude mighty thunderbolts. However, it might be that an egyptian is describing one thunderbolt as "scary" and the other one as "friendly". For example cold lightblue and warm orange. The heart centered egyptian would probably describe those qualities of energy in different colors and forms.

Lets look at some Maya visual expressions.
There is nothing sharp or egdy. No matter what evil they depicted, it was round-ish and tended to be organic. If you travel to Mexico and talk to the natives you will recognize that they pronouce the spanish language in a very soft way; the total opposite of how the people in spain/europe pronounce it. Those mindsets and the consciousness/emotional world of the persons are the keys to a broader understanding.

If we cant leave the intellectual point of view for a while, we can not really recognize what the ancients depicted. This is almost as crossing the border of two dimensions...
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Orlando » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:38 am

You have a knack for invoking this stuff Mague :D

I was thinking about the first sentence and came up with this.

Reflecting on my childhood I had lost our mother when I was 10 years old,
I was raised Roman Catholic and spent much time with my Grandparent in these early years.
A sense of anger, disappointment and a flood of Emotions consumed me.

Stopping there I realized that All people used analogies and metaphors and I came to associate that with Mythology;
A story or tale or rhymn or joke that reaped or led ones curiosity to examine a scenario in a different light so to speak.

What invoked people all around the Globe to carve these symbols? And their relevant timing?

It was relevent importance to survival based instincts forgetting all their personal views and selflessly recording these in a way and language that would and could communicate with any being with the senses to contemplate them.

Their spirits were moved to a state of mind and spirit that overwhelmed their emotions, to witness a symbol or event so profound that it warranted recording for future kind.

A craftsman/ Artisan is usually remembered for their attention to detail and the amount of diligent effort in crafting their piece(s)

So I imagined some people at different parts of the globe rushing emphatically, full of Inspiration carving into stone some 6 inches or so, Imagine the motivation involved, the drive to preserve that Experience and its Importance.

I have come to understand that there are things from our ancestry as whole that where meant to preserve life lessons, they were aware of the divide of communication, a picture is worth a couple of mega-bytes or more depending on our resolution.

Anyways I can go on and on, so scientifically I think that we as a Plasma phenomena use our sensory perception to intake data, some data causes an emotional reaction to which causes chemical reactions and gives us emotional states, we use experience to make sure that one or more of our senses were not tricked and we can reflect and formulate and process the Data to ensure our safety.

All data that resonates with the processed data+experiences gives us knowledge, while the process of appling that knowledge will be based on our Intent.

Our Brain a total sensory input device
Knowledge the Mathematics in processing all the sensory data
Experience the Application of the summed data

The Spirit is the Intent and beauty of truth resonating in our whole being and with our nature.

Thinking itself is tied to our will, we must be carefully with the information we take into it.
Thinking manifests into Action, Action reveals thoughts, displays ones will and Intent.

Finding that Plasma exists every where in all of nature to some degree or another I have come to realize that it carries the seeds and nutrients for matter to manifest in cycles by its very nature.

I have no other means to express it by words, but what I feel is Beauty, and that's good enough for me.

Sorry for the Rant, just expressing what I feel.

Peace
Or
Teach me a fact and I'll learn; Tell me the truth and I'll Believe;
Tell me a Story and it will live in my Heart forever--

Native American Proverb
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Callesen58 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:13 am

Egyptian mythology gets boring fast. Lets instead have some Scandinavian / North European mythology.

Especially the myths revolving around Gefjon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefjon

In chapter 5 of Ynglinga saga (as collected in Heimskringla), an euhemerized prose account relates that Odin sent Gefjun from Odense, Funen "north over the sound to seek for land." There, Gefjun encountered king Gylfi "and he gave her ploughland." Gefjun went to the land of Jötunheimr, and there bore four sons to a jötunn (whose name is not provided). Gefjun transformed these four sons into oxen, attached them to a plough, and drew forth the land westward of the sea, opposite to Odense. The saga adds that this land is now called Zealand, and that Gefjun married Skjöldr (described here as "a son of Odin"). The two dwelled in Lejre thereafter. From where Gefjun took the land that formed Zealand, a lake was left behind call Lögrinn, and the saga posits that the bays in lake Lögrinn correspond to the nesses of Zealand.


A reoccurring theme in legend and folktale consists of a man or, more often, a woman who is challenged to gain as much land as can be traveled within a limited amount of time. This motif is attested by Livy around 1 CE, 5th CE century Greek historian Herodotus, and in folktales from Northern Europe. In six tales from Jutland, Denmark and one from Germany a plough is used similarly as in Livy's account, though the conditions are often met by walking or riding.[21]

Hilda Ellis Davidson points out a tale from Iceland that features a female settler "whose husband had died on the voyage out, establishing her claim to a piece of land by driving a young hiefer round it." Davidson notes that in Landnámabók, this is recorded as a recognized method for a woman to claim land, and the work further details that "she might not possess more than she could encircle in this way between sunrise and sunset on a spring day." Davidson comments that "this sounds like a ritual taking over of land rather than a legal requirement, like the custom of men lighting fires when taking new land, and it is possible that the women's custom was linked with the fertility goddess."[22] In addition, Davidson notes that Zealand is the most fertile region of Denmark.[22]

Davidson further links folk customs recorded in the 19th century involving ploughs in Northern and Eastern Europe to practices involving Gefjon from the heathen period. Davidson points out that in eastern Europe, a custom is recorded in Russia where women with loosened hair and clad in white would assemble and drag a plough three times around their village during serious disease outbreaks. In Western Europe, yearly ploughing rituals occurring in England and Denmark in preparation for spring sowing which are, in eastern England, held on Plough Monday after the Christmas break. Gangs of young men dragged round a plough, while taking various names. Davidson states that "Gefjon with her giant sons transformed into oxen seems a fitting patroness of ceremonies of this kind."[23]

Davidson finds similar elements and parallels in non-Germanic traditions, such as a folktale regarding the Lady of the Lake from Wales recorded in the 19th century. In the tale, the Lady brings forth a "a herd of wondrous cattle" from the water after she consents to marrying a local farmer. Years later, he unwittingly breaks conditions that she had laid down. As a result, the Lady returns to her dwelling beneath the lake, and calls for her cattle to accompany her, calling them by name. In one version of the tale, the Lady calls forth four gray oxen who were ploughing in a field six miles away. Responding to her call, the oxen dragged the plough with them, and the gash in the land that the plough produced was said to have once been clearly visible.[23]

A woman was recorded in 1881 as having claimed to recall that people once gathered at the lake on the first Sunday of August, waiting to see whether or not the water would boil up as an indication that the Lady and her oxen would make an appearance. Davidson notes that "here again a supernatural woman is linked both with water and ploughing land."[24]

Davidson states that in Germanic areas of Europe, traditions also exist of supernatural women who travel about the countryside with a plough, examples including Holde and Holle (from the western and central regions of Germany) and Berchte and Perchte in traditions from upper Germany, Switzerland, and Austria. Davidson explains that "they were frequently said to travel with a plough around the countryside, in a way reminiscent of the journey of the fertility goddess to bless the land in pre-Christian times, and on these occasions they might be accompanied by a host of tiny children; it was suggested that these children who died unbaptized, or human offspring replaced by changelings, but another possibility is that they were the souls of the unborn." Davidson details that some local tales feature the plough breaking down, the supernatural woman gaining assistance from a helper, and the supernatural woman giving him wooden chips, only for the chips to later to turn to gold.[25]

Regarding the plough and Gefjon, Davidson concludes that "the idea behind the taking of the plough round the countryside seems to be that it brought good fortune and prosperity, gifts of a benevolent goddess. Gefjon and her plough thus fit into a large framework of the cult of a goddess associated with fertility of both land and water."[25]



This one is more interesting than Egyptian mythology, for the simple reason that it can be proved. There should be signs of electrical activity on either Zealand or Southern Sweden, anything from oil to carved rock.
The only 12-19 on this forum (15 to be exact), as per the survey.
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:30 am

Hi Callensen58,

Would you care to expand a bit on your post? It is difficult to know what your point is.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby mague » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:55 am

I got another one about colors and materials.

My question once was, why is there a Maiz god in Mayan mythology ?

The answer was simple but enlightening:

We are supposed to take only as much as we need to live.
If we eat eggs, nuts or honey, then we have to steal them.
If we eat meat and roots we have to kill for it.
But maiz is dead and free. Its is golden and given by the gods.

That moment i recognized that all grain dies and then turns golden.
We can eat it without stealing or killing. Its free food and grain
is one of the main sources of food all over the planet.

Thats why anything golden, be it organic or metallic, is
the flesh of the gods.
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Re: Plasma Mythology forum discussion

Unread postby Callesen58 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:50 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Callensen58,

Would you care to expand a bit on your post? It is difficult to know what your point is.


Scandinavian mythology has it that Zealand,http://www.sologstrand.dk/images/ferie/DK/regionkort-9-pic.gif, was ploughed out from Southern Sweden. While Egyptian Mythology is mostly drawings and hieroglyphs, which are hard to prove are connected to electrical phenomenea, it should be easy to prove if there is actually truth in the myth regarding Zealand, which could pretty much only be caused by electricity.

Physical myths are generally easier to prove to be connected to electric phenomenea, but less likely to be taken serious by the Mainstream.
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the legend of Gefjon

Unread postby MattEU » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:58 pm

Callesen58, you got to help us out a bit with the geology, the area and the history of skandiland places.

the legend of Gefjon certainly sounds like having been inspired from EUology. there are similar legends from around the world about mountains being moved and on Malta we have a crater where the material was moved to form an island, so there are other variations of the events.

can you find out more about the 2 areas? i had a quick look and Lake Mälaren certainly has what i would think are EU creation features, it looks like a lightning strike or lichtenberg figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La3-demis-malaren.png). An area of the country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergslagen is also famous for its mineral deposits and unique minerals, a likely sign of EU activity and transmutations.

"However, since modern maps show a similarity between Zealand and the Swedish lake Vänern, it is sometimes identified as the hole left by Gefjun." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealand_%2 ... al_origins
Just curious if they do they look the same, is this true?

i had a look at the link http://www.sologstrand.dk/images/ferie/ ... -9-pic.gif and it is really confusing, took me ages to work out that it is not a sea or a lake i am looking at (dark blue) but is an island.

Poetic Edda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefjon#Poetic_Edda

this might be worth investigating, seeing what the versions say in the oldest versions not translated into english (so you dont get the old "lost in translation")

..steam rising from the swift-footed bulls.
The oxen bore eight
moons of the forehead and four heads,
hauling as they went in front of
the grassy isle's wide fissure...


Loki
Be silent, Gefion! I will now just mention,
how that fair youth thy mind corrupted,
who thee a necklace gave,
and around whom thou thy limbs didst twine?

Loki spake
Be silent, Gefjun! for now shall I say
Who led thee to evil life;
The boy so fair gave a necklace bright,
And about him thy leg was laid.

i have zero clue about the poem but these could be EU references, of course it could be absolutely nothing at all to do with the EU and just about a pearl necklace or something similar.i think you will need to study it and tell us what it says. could the Loki bit be a reference to some sort of plasma discharge event? or do i just see EU things everywhere?
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