Free will

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Free will

Unread postby lw1990 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:38 pm

Allow me to present you a very unpopular notion, that there is no free will.

Most of humanity believes in some form of free will; for humans, that is, but not for most other lifeforms on Earth, especially things like plants, even though both plants and humans have the same building blocks such as atoms, DNA, cells, etc.

Even insects like roaches are not thought to have free will, even though they have a brain.

So why is it such a one-sided topic? On one side, you have 99.999% of humanity believing in some degree of free will - even people who call themselves deterministic often voice the notion that 'although we are consistent with the laws of physics, we are somehow more than the sum of our parts in terms of cause and effect'.

I would like to draw attention to the scientific data regarding the existence of all things: how things at the human-sized scale behave, things like inanimate objects, lifeforms in general, and various macro-scale parts of nature like the weather. All of these things, with the exception of humans, are generally believed to be entirely void of contra causal free will to any degree. Yet, as soon as a lifeform becomes exactly as complex as a human being, this contra causal free will notion becomes not only plausible, but overwhelmingly 'truthy' to the population at large, scientists, philosophers, etc.

Why is this?

I consider myself one of the rare few who denounce free will to any extent - viewing myself, other animals, insects, plants, all other lifeforms, artificial intelligences of today and the future, cells, atoms, synapses, etc. as puppets to the laws of physics, even if its complexity escapes our mental grasp - complexity and our innate desire to feel important does not mean nature suddenly breaks its pattern (the same pattern of physical puppetry we see in all less-intelligent lifeforms and artificial intelligences). The line gets blurred the more complex the intelligence (living or not). It's harder to see if a chimp has no free will than a roach, or roach vs bacteria, and so on. Why do we think that when the line gets very blurry that suddenly the pattern breaks and free will arises? Why do we not even contest this idea so that there is a more balanced 50/50 split of belief in the population? Is this question not fundamentally important to the nature of our existence? Forget what you 'need' the answer to be, seek the truth no matter what your current self thinks the answer 'should' be or 'has' to be for you to sleep well at night. The truth doesn't care about your feelings.

I am extraordinarily tired and weary of being the only person, not only in a room, but even on entire continents of the web who has any rational sense of human behavior at the fundamental level. It's maddening that such an obvious and apparent deduction is not given any time of day by 99.999% of the worlds population.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby moses » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:07 pm

People that think that they have made a decision through their own free will are probably deluded. That is because physical forces have probably made the decision. Then the self jumps up and claims it. But is there a non-physical source of action.

Materialism definitely says no, but dualism says yes. It is a matter of looking for such a non-physical source of action within us. Experiencing is non-physical. Experiencing is connected to brain nerve impulses, which are the source of action. Usually brain nerve impulses induce experiencing, such as colour, scent, etc. But this connection leaves open the possibility that action, as brain nerve impulses, are produced through that connection to the non-physical. This could be free will.

Materialism says that experiencing is physical. So it is only by consideration of what exactly is experiencing that a decision can be made. The self may determine that there is within a source of action that lies beyond the self. The self may claim this source as part of itself, but still action will be fixed unless there is input from the non-physical. Better to define the self as physical such as ideas and beliefs and as the physical source of emotions.

If one translates ancient writings into the word 'experiencing' instead of 'consciousness' then those writings indicate a divine connection to experiencing, and so experiencing becomes a source of divine action in us. One might call this free will.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Free will

Unread postby jacmac » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:26 pm

It seems to me lw1990, that your status as one of the .001% of all of us is ample evidence that
you do have free will to come to your very own conclusion.
Ironic isn't it.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby lw1990 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:46 am

Either we feel like we are in control, but are actually puppets to physical laws in every way, or not. It is an either-or thing and yet 99.999% of the population is overwhelmingly siding with the notion we are not puppets (like a rock or plant or insect is). I don't care about your own personal beliefs, does this not seem like a huge problem?

If you lay out the evidence suggesting that we are puppets to physical laws vs the evidence suggesting we are not, an unbiased conclusion would be that we are puppets. Humans have a knee-jerk emotional reaction to that. Knee-jerk emotional reactions don't have anything to do with the truth. How much simpler can it be that emotional bias is clouding reason here? And instead of focus on that, so far, two more people have put the emotional blindfold on.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby jacmac » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:27 am

In my opinion, You have your brain tied in a knot.
There is no need to create an all or nothing situation.
Either we feel like we are in control, but are actually puppets to physical laws in every way, or not

Physical laws do not tell you what to do.
They describe what happens in different circumstances.
While walking you may trip.
If not able to get your footing quickly you will fall.
Gravity does not tell you where to walk.

This is my last comment on this topic.
Jack
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Re: Free will

Unread postby lw1990 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:45 pm

Even though you are completely off your rocker judging from previous posts, what you said at least seemed to be somewhat lucid this time, so I'll respond

Either something is true, or it isn't. This is a valid question, you said there's no need for this question in a poorly constructed sentence, your opinion is useless to everyone.

Physical laws do not speak to me. I don't hear voices in my head like you seem to. But they definitely tell every atom that makes up my body how to behave. Add up all of those behaviors, and you have me and my behavior. Obvious, factual, and to contest otherwise goes against all of the collective scientific understanding mankind has today.

You have an emotional-knee jerk reaction to this obvious conclusion, this point-blank logical deduction. I can't help you with your emotional stability, or inability to acknowledge the truth when it punches you in the face. I can only tell you that your pathetic quips have no substance, which you already know but it's all you can offer.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby D_Archer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:01 am

I am not sure why OP thinks 99,9% thinks that free will definitely exists or believes in it, this has been a philosophers debate for a long time and no conclusion is reached yet. And a lot of people in the world are religious and if you ask them they would probably believe in fate (and thus not free will)

I do sense that it could be a yes or no, free will exists or not, if it does exist that would be great, if it does not exist then free will is an illusion to us, would that really matter?

Always good to restate what the definition of free will is >

Dict. >
"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

In philosophy:
"
The ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily. For many philosophers, to believe in free will is to believe that human beings can be the authors of their own actions and to reject the idea that human actions are determined by external conditions or fate. (See determinism, fatalism, and predestination.)
"

If you say free will does not exist than you are also saying that predestination exists... how would you want to prove the opposite of free will?

Regards,
Daniel
- Shoot Forth Thunder -
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Re: Free will

Unread postby jacmac » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 am

Even though you are completely off your rocker judging from previous posts,

in a poorly constructed sentence, your opinion is useless to everyone.

you said there's no need for this question in a poorly constructed sentence, your opinion is useless to everyone.

You have an emotional-knee jerk reaction to this obvious conclusion,

I can only tell you that your pathetic quips have no substance, which you already know but it's all you can offer.

Five great reasons why I should entertain your ideas further......NOT.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby lw1990 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:38 am

@d_archer
many religions who say that their deity has a plan for everyone and such do not imply that this plan is 100% detailed by their 'creator', otherwise what would be the point in asking for forgiveness like in Christianity, and all of the other free will, good and evil, nonsense.

also that definition of free will truly sucks; free will as it is believed in folk psychology is simply the disbelief that everything is caused by atomic interactions and physical laws which are fixed and static, and outside of our influence. Some people take that disbelief really far, some barely go further than that, but all are equally irrational arguments, and most arguments center around humanity or human thoughts, beliefs, etc. They don't really care if a squirrel is a sort of isolated god of their own fate, but they sure want themselves to be. This ideological virus of believing in the self as apart from nature, in having a soul, good and evil existing, etc. is the root of division among humanity - more so than even religion or fascism and things like that. In every family, in every culture, people are divided by scales of right and wrong, punished and shaped by a savage-like misunderstanding of human existence. We have more emotional intelligence concerning our dogs today than we do our fellow humans. We can atleast realize that a dogs behavior of peeing indoors can be fixed by training it to do otherwise in a humane manner, rather than blame the dog for just being an objectively bad dog on its own volition. Not so much the case for humans - well, if they are older than a toddler, for some reason that's the age limit of current human savages' ability to see the strings that move them around like puppets.

anyway, I don't think predestination exists at all - I think there is only one way the universe can 'unfold' because the same physical laws are acting on each state of the universe, and nobody planned it out, nobody and nothing knows what comes next (although we make partial predictions based on patterns), and it's definitely not 'pre-' determined, computed, or anything.

@jacmac lol, you used one quote twice
there are plenty of nutjobs that live in this subforum and the mad insights forum, you are one of them, sorry, I really don't care if you entertain my arguments, I would not expect someone like you to be mentally capable of reason
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Re: Free will

Unread postby nick c » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:25 pm

lw1990,
Personal attacks and name calling are not acceptable argument techniques on the TB Forum.
Please refer to the Forum Rules and Guidelines
Personal or ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated, under any circumstances. If you disagree with something which has been posted, address the post, not the poster.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby jacmac » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:37 pm

lw1990 you got that right.
I used one quote twice.
Oops, I was in a hurry.
My bad.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby Webbman » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:44 am

Certainly you lack free will since I know where your idea comes from.
The secret to the universe is a rubber band.
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Re: Free will

Unread postby prioris55555 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:20 pm

i'm the puppet master
now someone bring me a cheese danish
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Re: Free will

Unread postby toni » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Our brain is a mechanism that can sense motion around itself. Our thinking in reality is just sensing. It can imitate, copy, reason and that's all it does. Most sense the outside world and interpret it through its own logic and reasoning and then reflect it back. Very few can see the world and use their talents, wisdom and knowledge to benefit the world with something totally new. It requires desire, dedication, discipline and very hard work.
Or, they could sit on the couch and do nothing.

Regards,
Toni
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Re: Free will

Unread postby prioris55555 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:00 am

The way we experience this realm most intensely is thru the physical body. When we die, the mind survives and still senses. We know that because ghosts exist. The brain is like an interface receiver/transmitter that allows our spirit to interact with this realm. The real unknown is why we would even come back into a body e.g. natural, addicted, hypnotized, tricked, forced, voluntary ... and have our spirit trapped into physical matter again.
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