symbolism, modern and past psychology

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symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:24 am

Hi Mague,
You wrote:
Now, why does the cross fit well into the quadrangle ? Probably because the cross is a good mental form to hold balance while "something" tries to compromise your corners.
Something to do with this?
Dionysus.jpg
Dionysus


Here's an interesting little article which illustrates the difference between ancient psychology and its modern version:
"The Divergent Uses of Greek Philosophical Terms. By Platonic Philosophy and Modern Psychology:
Two Illustrations" [daimon and psyche]
http://www.prometheustrust.co.uk/Meadow ... terms.html

[You were correct about the 3 Moon phases. I discovered that the Greeks only had 3 phases -new face, full face and old face]
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:30 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Mague,
You wrote:
Now, why does the cross fit well into the quadrangle ? Probably because the cross is a good mental form to hold balance while "something" tries to compromise your corners.
Something to do with this?
Dionysus.jpg




Hello Grey Cloud,

i guess we are derailing again :)

Uhmm.. where to begin...

The asymmetric cross with or without a person hanging on it is not the true cross. While i have deep respect for Jesus we have to accept that he is not the beginning of time. His story just holds symbolic hints of a greater story.

As far as i can tell there was the knowledge that our mind is quadratic with four cornerstones. The egypt pyramids have a quadratic base, the root chakra has a quadratic shape, the medicine wheel is a circle but is divided into four sections.

Chakra
Medicine wheel
The emperor Look at his qubic throne ;)
The Mage As above so is below. And his utilities are on a quadratic table.

In modern terms we probably would say its a quadratic area with four holographic beamers in each corner. Each corner is connected to a basic instinct and with its basic instinct there is a basic fear. Most people agree that the primary basic instinct is the will to live. And its fear is the fear of death. They are inseparable tied together, or are just the two sides of the same coin. This part is extremely well known by modern mind science.

The two main cornerstones are will to live and will to find a partner/reproduce. Those two pillars are well known.
The High Priestress is sitting in front of them. Their names are Jachin and Boas. They both have been at the entrance to Solomons temple in Jerusalem ;) The priestess also displays the true cross. The virgin is the symbol for a unspoiled soul and pure reproduction in many cultures. The equal cross shaped like a plus sign.

People learned quite fast about mental attacks. It was recognized that your focus is able to defend you. The focus is much like a goalkeeper in front of his goal. The more players shoot a ball the less there is a chance that you catch all balls. It will exhaust your concentration/mental strength. It will literally overwhelm your mind and the balls will penetrate your quadrangle and compromise your free will. The best picture are the christian pictures of daemon attacks.

Haunted

Resistance and fight was futile. And so people learned to "retreat" into their self and think of the cross with the plus sign shape. Its not connected to the corners. Its mantra is: I am me. This works quite well since you dont connect to your cornerstones and therefor there is no vulnerability. Simple but effective.

The asymmetric cross is a different symbol. It describes the situation after your mind was compromised.
The Hanged Man is in a waiting position. People learned that it was best to wait and sacrify in humbleness once your mind was infected. Your life literally turns up-side down and you cant do much but wait till its over. Much like a flu ;) Your will to live and will to find a partner/reproduce are blocked. Your life is in someone else hands (or lest say uncontrolled. Not even by yourself) and you cant reproduce and love a partner, because you are infected => quarantine :D
The next step is Death Not necessary physical death. Its about a new start. Look at the two towers where the sun rises. They promise a new will to live and a new will to find a partner/reproduce.

Regarding Socrates and Plato there is a problem. Those guys have been initiates. There is a point where "daimon" is no longer an enemy and sometimes indeed is a "helper". We could say angels and daemons are the left and right hand of god. But this is not true for all humans. In so far Socrates and Plate most probably had a different view of "stuff" just as some shaman do not divert between angels and deamons. This is a very delicate topic. In a perfect world the daemons are just guardians. Any human on his spiritual journey to higher grounds has to bypass them. They guard certain key positions. In a not-so-perfect world this is more complexa dn about balance. I think those two greek philosophers lived in a rather perfect world. They have been elite in a great nation without industry and environmental pollution ;) Wine, sun, the oceanos and fresh air. Optimal conditions for a philosopher :D In that regard i agree with their definitions.
However, many people try to align to the daimons. Just as the guy from Harvard. Did he care about the souls of his probands ? Not at all, his message to the world is that he is willing to use his knowledge for fame and fortune. This is a classic deal with the devil. I hope he has read Goethe's The Sorcerer's Apprentice

Sir, my need is sore.
Spirits that I've cited
My commands ignore.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:30 am

Hi Mague,
You are right, we shouldn't derail the thread (I wouldn't want to lay myself open to accusations of riding rough-shod :D ). I'm thinking of opening a thread on symbolism in myth.
Suffice to say that Dionysus is the inverse of the Hanged Man (who is on a Tau cross). The reason why Dionysus' cross is asymmetrical is that a man's arms aren't as long as his legs. His feet are at the South, showing where he comes from, (the home of the gods). His head is at North, where the World Axis turns (spindle/mill stone) showing that he controls the Universe. His arms stretch to the East and West showing he is everywhere in the Universe (can touch all parts). He is Cosmic Man, he is humanity. It can also be interpreted as showing that the Universe is within Man (just another way of saying the same thing). The image I used is Orphic but Dionysus is none other than Osiris/Horus. Both are gods of agriculture and introduced the vine - hence the bread and wine thing. The Hanged Man is waiting to become Dionysus. He hasn't long to wait now as we are now on the ascending half of the cycle.

I'm quite happy to continue this via PM or email if you wish.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:25 am

Moving to here to avoid derailing :)

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Mague,
You are right, we shouldn't derail the thread (I wouldn't want to lay myself open to accusations of riding rough-shod :D ). I'm thinking of opening a thread on symbolism in myth.
Suffice to say that Dionysus is the inverse of the Hanged Man (who is on a Tau cross). The reason why Dionysus' cross is asymmetrical is that a man's arms aren't as long as his legs. His feet are at the South, showing where he comes from, (the home of the gods). His head is at North, where the World Axis turns (spindle/mill stone) showing that he controls the Universe. His arms stretch to the East and West showing he is everywhere in the Universe (can touch all parts). He is Cosmic Man, he is humanity. It can also be interpreted as showing that the Universe is within Man (just another way of saying the same thing). The image I used is Orphic but Dionysus is none other than Osiris/Horus. Both are gods of agriculture and introduced the vine - hence the bread and wine thing. The Hanged Man is waiting to become Dionysus. He hasn't long to wait now as we are now on the ascending half of the cycle.

I'm quite happy to continue this via PM or email if you wish.


They Dionysus cross reminds me of something different, it is the hanged man.

Isnt it typical that people start to drink once something spoiled their life ? Isnt that the hanged man ? Waiting and maybe drug the pain ? Interssting is the arrow on the bottom of the cross. It reminds me of a technique called grounding. Means getting the feet back on the ground, starting again. Also the head is realigning towards the stars. After your mind was shaked up you might have lost orientation. Grounding is a recalibration of your mental orientation.

Isnt it often that we drink a lot one night to make a cut and then start over the next day new ? Have a party, have a drink, have some fun with the ladies and tomorrow is a new day. Thats all party animal Dionysus :D and basically identical to hanged man, about realingning orientation. Interressting is Pan, isnt he a companion of bacchus ? He is a bit of a deamon but then a rather "friendly" one. He is a good symbol for releasign a hardened standpoint. Good and evil doent matetr while having a party. Fun, forgetting and loosen up hardened mind patterns is it..
mague
 
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:39 pm

mague wrote:They Dionysus cross reminds me of something different, it is the hanged man.

Isnt it typical that people start to drink once something spoiled their life ? Isnt that the hanged man ? Waiting and maybe drug the pain ? Interssting is the arrow on the bottom of the cross. It reminds me of a technique called grounding. Means getting the feet back on the ground, starting again. Also the head is realigning towards the stars. After your mind was shaked up you might have lost orientation. Grounding is a recalibration of your mental orientation.

Isnt it often that we drink a lot one night to make a cut and then start over the next day new ? Have a party, have a drink, have some fun with the ladies and tomorrow is a new day. Thats all party animal Dionysus :D and basically identical to hanged man, about realingning orientation. Interressting is Pan, isnt he a companion of bacchus ? He is a bit of a deamon but then a rather "friendly" one. He is a good symbol for releasign a hardened standpoint. Good and evil doent matetr while having a party. Fun, forgetting and loosen up hardened mind patterns is it..



There are some interesting similar figures following Pan, also notice the statues of the hanging Marsyas


Pan

Pan (Greek Πάν, genitive Πανός), in Greek religion and mythology, is the companion of the nymphs,[1] god of shepherds and flocks, of mountain wilds, hunting and rustic music. His name originates within the Greek language, from the word paein, meaning "to pasture".[2] He has the hindquarters, legs, and horns of a goat, in the same manner as a faun or satyr. With his homeland in rustic Arcadia, he is recognized as the god of fields, groves, and wooded glens; because of this, Pan is connected to fertility and the season of spring.

Origins

In his earliest appearance in literature, Pindar's Pythian Ode iii. 78, [4] Pan appears as the "agent", "guardian" or "attendant" of the Great Goddess (Cybele).

The parentage of Pan is unclear;[5] in some myths he is the son of Zeus, though generally he is the son of Hermes, with whom his mother is said to be a nymph, sometimes Dryope or, in Nonnus, Dionysiaca (14.92), a Penelope of Mantineia in Arcadia.[6] Following Plato's inventive etymology,[7] his name is sometimes mistakenly thought to be identical to the Greek word pan, meaning "all", when it is more likely to be cognate with paein, "to pasture", and to share an origin with the modern English word "pasture". Greek Pan and Indic Pushan might have a common, Indo-European or at least "Graeco-Aryan", origin. In the Mystery cults of the highly syncretic Hellenistic era[8] Pan is made cognate with Phanes/Protogonos, Zeus, Dionysus and Eros.[9]

Probably the beginning of the linguistic misunderstanding is the Homeric Hymn to Pan, which describes him as delighting all the gods, and thus getting his name.[citation needed] The Roman Faunus, a god of Indo-European origin, was equated with Pan. However, accounts of Pan's genealogy are so varied that it must lie buried deep in mythic time. Like other nature spirits, Pan appears to be older than the Olympians, if it is true that he gave Artemis her hunting dogs and taught the secret of prophecy to Apollo. Pan might be multiplied as the Panes (Burkert 1985, III.3.2; Ruck and Staples 1994 p 132[10]) or the Paniskoi. Kerenyi (1951 p 174) notes from scholia that Aeschylus in Rhesus distinguished between two Pans, one the son of Zeus and twin of Arcas, and one a son of Kronos. "In the retinue of Dionysos, or in depictions of wild landscapes, there appeared not only a great Pan, but also little Pans, Paniskoi, who played the same part as the Satyrs".


Mythology
The goat-god Aegipan was nurtured by Amalthea with the infant Zeus in Crete. In Zeus' battle with Typhon, Aegipan and Hermes stole back Zeus' "sinews" that Typhon had hidden away in the Corycian Cave.[11] Pan aided his foster-brother in the battle with the Titans by blowing his conch-horn and scattering them in terror. According to some traditions, Aegipan was the son of Pan, rather than his father.

One of the famous myths of Pan involves the origin of his eponymous pan flute. Syrinx was a lovely water-nymph of Arcadia, daughter of Landon, the river-god. As she was returning from the hunt one day, Pan met her. To escape from his importunities, the fair nymph ran away and didn't stop to hear his compliments. He pursued from Mount Lycaeum until she came to her sisters who immediately changed her into a reed. When the air blew through the reeds, it produced a plaintive melody. The god, still infatuated, took some of the reeds, because he could not identify which reed she became, and cut seven pieces (or according to some versions, nine), joined them side by side in gradually decreasing lengths, and formed the musical instrument bearing the name of his beloved Syrinx. Henceforth Pan was seldom seen without it.

Echo was a nymph who was a great singer and dancer and scorned the love of any man. This angered Pan, a lecherous god, and he instructed his followers to kill her. Echo was torn to pieces and spread all over earth. The goddess of the earth, Gaia, received the pieces of Echo, whose voice remains repeating the last words of others. In some versions, Echo and Pan first had one child: Iambe.

Pan also loved a nymph named Pitys, who was turned into a pine tree to escape him


Pan and music

Once Pan had the audacity to compare his music with that of Apollo, and to challenge Apollo, the god of the lyre, to a trial of skill. Tmolus, the mountain-god, was chosen to umpire. Pan blew on his pipes, and with his rustic melody gave great satisfaction to himself and his faithful follower, Midas, who happened to be present. Then Apollo struck the strings of his lyre. Tmolus at once awarded the victory to Apollo, and all but Midas agreed with the judgement. He dissented, and questioned the justice of the award. Apollo would not suffer such a depraved pair of ears any longer, and turned Midas' ears into those of a donkey. In another version of the myth the first round of the contest was a tie so they were forced to go to a second round. In this round, Apollo demanded that they play standing on their heads. Apollo, playing on the lyre, was unaffected, however Pan's pipe couldn't be played while upsidedown, so Apollo won the contest.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(mythology)

Satyr

In Greek mythology, satyrs (Ancient Greek: Σάτυροι, Satyroi) are a troop of male companions of Pan and Dionysus — "satyresses" were a late invention of poets — that roamed the woods and mountains. In mythology they are often associated with sex drive and vase-painters often portrayed them with perpetual erections.

Mythology

The satyrs' chief was Silenus, a minor deity associated (like Hermes and Priapus) with fertility. These characters can be found in the only remaining satyr play Cyclops by Euripedes and the fragments of Sophocles' The Tracking Satyrs (Ichneutae). The satyr play was a lighthearted follow-up attached to the end of each trilogy of tragedies in Athenian festivals honoring Dionysus. These plays would take a lighthearted approach to the heavier subject matter of the tragedies in the series, featuring heroes speaking in tragic iambic verse and taking their situation seriously as to the flippant, irreverent and obscene remarks and antics of the satyrs. The groundbreaking tragic playwright Aeschylus is said to have been especially loved for his satyr plays, but none of them have survived.

Satyrs are described as roguish but faint-hearted folk — subversive and dangerous, yet shy and cowardly. As Dionysiac creatures they are lovers of wine and women, and they are ready for every physical pleasure. They roam to the music of pipes (auloi), cymbals, castanets, and bagpipes, and they love to dance with the nymphs (with whom they are obsessed, and whom they often pursue), and have a special form of dance called sikinnis. Because of their love of wine, they are often represented holding winecups, and they appear often in the decorations on winecups.


In Greek mythology and art

In earlier Greek art, satyrs appear as old and ugly, but in later art, especially in works of the Attic school, this savage characteristic is softened into a more youthful and graceful aspect.

Older satyrs were known as sileni, the younger as satyrisci. The hare was the symbol of the shy and timid satyr. Greek spirits known as Calicantsars have a noticeable resemblance to the ancient satyrs; they have goats' ears and the feet of donkeys or goats, are covered with hair, and love women and the dance.

Although they are not mentioned by Homer, in a fragment of Hesiod's works they are called brothers of the mountain nymphs and Kuretes, strongly connected with the cult of Dionysus, and are an idle and worthless race. In the Dionysus cult, male followers are known as satyrs and female followers as maenads or bacchants.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyr

Silenus

In Greek mythology, Silenus was a companion and tutor to the wine god Dionysus. The name is derived from Silenoi, the followers of Dionysus.


Mythological stories

The Silenoi (Σειληνοί) were followers of Dionysus. They were drunks, and were usually bald and fat with thick lips and squat noses, and had the legs of a human. Later, the plural "silenoi" went out of use and the only references were to one individual named Silenus, the teacher and faithful companion of the wine-god Dionysus. A notorious consumer of wine, he was usually drunk and had to be supported by satyrs or carried by a donkey. Silenus was described as the oldest, wisest and most drunken of the followers of Dionysus, and was said in Orphic hymns to be the young god's tutor. This puts him in a company of phallic or half-animal tutors of the gods, a group that includes Priapus, Cedalion and Chiron, but also includes Pallas, the tutor of Athena.[1]

When intoxicated, Silenus was said to possess special knowledge and the power of prophecy. The Phrygian King Midas was eager to learn from Silenus and caught the old man by lacing a fountain from which Silenus often drank. As Silenus fell asleep, the king's servants seized and took him to their master.


In art

Silenus commonly figures in Roman bas-reliefs of the train of Dionysus, a subject for sarcophagi, embodying the transcendent promises of Dionysian cult.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus


Marsyas
In Greek mythology, the satyr Marsyas (gr. Μαρσύας) is a central figure in two stories involving music: in one, he picked up the double flute (aulos) that had been abandoned by Athena and played it;[1] in the other, he challenged Apollo to a contest of music and lost his hide and life. In Antiquity, literary sources often emphasise the hubris of Marsyas and the justice of his punishment.

In one strand of modern comparative mythography, the domination of Marsyas by Apollo is regarded as an example of myth that recapitulates a supposed supplanting by the Olympian pantheon of an earlier “Pelasgian” religion of chthonic heroic ancestors and nature spirits.[2] Marsyas was a devoté of the ancient Mother Goddess Rhea/Cybele, and his episodes are sited by the mythographers in Celaenae (or Kelainai) in Phrygia (today, the town of Dinar in Turkey), at the main source of the Meander (the river Menderes).[3]

When a genealogy was applied to him, Marsyas was the son of Olympus (son of Heracles and Euboea, daughter of Thespius), or of Oeagrus, or of Hyagnis. Olympus was, alternatively, said to be Marsyas' son or pupil.


The finding of the aulos

Marsyas was an expert player on the double-piped reed instrument pipe known as the aulos. In the anecdotal account, he found the instrument on the ground where it had been tossed aside with a curse by its inventor Athena, after the other gods made sport of how her cheeks bulged when she played. The fifth-century poet Telestes doubted that virginal Athena could have been motivated by such vanity,[4] but in the second century AD, on the Acropolis of Athens itself, the voyager Pausanias saw "a statue of Athena striking Marsyas the Silenos for taking up the flutes that the goddess wished to be cast away for good."".[5]


Marsyas and Apollo

In the contest between Apollo and Marsyas, the terms stated that the winner could treat the defeated party any way he wanted. Since the contest was judged by the Muses,[6] Marsyas naturally lost and was flayed alive in a cave near Celaenae for his hubris to challenge a god. Apollo then nailed Marsyas' skin to a pine tree,[7] near Lake Aulocrene (the Turkish Karakuyu Gölü), which Strabo noted was full of the reeds from which the pipes were fashioned.[8] Diodorus Siculus felt that Apollo must have repented this "excessive" deed, and said that he had laid aside his lyre for a while,[9] but Karl Kerenyi observes of the flaying of Marsyas' "shaggy hide: a penalty which will not seem especially cruel if one assumes that Marsyas' animal guise was merely a masquerade."[10] Classical Greeks were unaware of such shamanistic overtones, and the Flaying of Marsyas became a theme for painting and sculpture. His brothers, nymphs, gods and goddesses mourned his death, and their tears, according to Ovid's Metamorphoses, were the source of the river Marsyas in Phrygia, which joins the Meander near Celaenae, where Herodotus reported that the flayed skin of Marsyas was still to be seen,[11] and Ptolemy Hephaestion recorded a "festival of Apollo, where the skins of all those victims one has flayed are offered to the god."[12] Plato was of the opinion that it had been made into a wineskin.[13]


The wise Marsyas

The hubristic Marsyas in surviving literary sources eclipses the figure of the wise Marsyas suggested in a few words by the Hellenistic historian Diodorus Siculus,[16] who refers to Marsyas as admired for his intelligence (sunesis) and self-control (sophrosune), not qualities found by Greeks in ordinary satyrs. In Plato's Symposium,[17] when Alcibiades likens Socrates to Marsyas, it is this aspect of the wise satyr that is intended. Jocelyn Small[18] identifies in Marsyas an artist great enough to challenge a god, who can only be defeated through a ruse. A prominent statue of Marsyas as a wise old silenus stood near the Roman Forum.[19]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsyas
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/47960
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:03 am

Hi Mague,
Good move.
I have a set of the Ryder-Waite tarot cards.
The Hanged Man does not look unduly concerned with his predicament. He has a halo/corona around his head so he is illumined or enlightened and his hands are behind his back indicating that he is mental rather than physical (he does things with his head not his hands). His extended foot does not quite touch the ground (the material realm). His back is against the World Tree/Axis.

Your comments on 'grounding' were interesting. The first step in the Socratic method is to get rid of false assumptions (opinion). The second step is to get to the essence (as Socrates calls it) of the topic under discussion (e.g. virtue, love, justice). The third step is to use reason (not logic) to move forward to knowledge. (That's a very rough guide to the Socratic method).

As an aside (semi-humorous): Death (Thanatos) is carrying a flag which has a white rose on it. The white rose is the emblem of the county of Yorkshire in England (Kevin is from there). Across the Pennines (the 'backbone of England') is Lancashire (where I am from) which has the
red rose as its emblem. The white rose on the card is upside down.

The Magician. On his quadrilateral table he has the cup, sword, coin and staff representing the four estates (church, nobility, merchants, peasantry).

The High Priestess is Isis, mother of the world. She carries the Book of the Law (partially hidden).

Dionysus. The Greeks mixed their wine with herbs and spices and generally diluted it. Wine can be used in two ways. In moderation it is a relaxant, which aids in thinking/contemplation. In excess and combined with music it leads to 'ecstacy' (an altered state of consciousness) which is another way of getting to where you want to be.
On the negative side, the drunkenness alludes to the intoxication of the senses by the physical/material world.

Dionysus is 'twice-born'. First to a mortal mother(Semele); second from the thigh of Zeus (his father). He is also 'resurrected':
According to the myth, as a young child, Dionysos was kidnapped by the Titans, who lured him with marvellous toys. While he is gazing at his own image in a mirror, the Titans slice his throat with a sacrificial knife. The child-Dionysos is then cut up into pieces and first boiled,
then roasted. Zeus is attracted by the smell of cooking, and when he realises what is being cooked, he kills the Titans with a thunderbolt and resurrects Dionysos. According to some variants of the story, man then first appeared, born from the ashes of the burned Titans. So
Dionysos is the god who dies and is reborn, and from his death... his sacrifice, for the Titans follow correct sacrificial procedure when killing him, humanity comes into being.
http://www.dionysia.org/greek/dionysos/ ... nysos.html
In the above story, Athene rescues the heart of Dionysus and he is resurrected from it.
Dionysus is Man(kind). The above paragraph is full of symbolism:
The toys and mirror are the the physical or sensory world (maya).
His blood is his life energy which is poured into the Earth.
Boiled is Water and roast is Fire. Cut up is 'go forth and multiply'? Or, put another way, it is the same story as Genesis. The androgyne Dionysus is split into female (Water) and male (Fire).
Zeus' thunderbolt against the Titans represents the point at which this takes place (act of god?).
The point about it being a properly constituted sacrifice is saying that this was carried out as part of a natural (or Lawful) process. It is a descent not a 'Fall'. We are the 'Fallen Angels' (One-third of whom 'fell'. Of the individual human, one-third part is on Earth; one-third is still in 'heaven' and the middle third is the medium which joins the two opposites (Heaven and Earth) as per Plato and others. Brain, Athene and Hermes is the way I see it.
The story of Dionysus is absolutely chock-full of symbolism which I am slowly picking my way through. A few exmples. Dionysus is said to have been married to Ariadne (she of the golden thread) who I would identify as 'soul' and the above mentioned connection to Athene is suggestive of Reason or higher-mind. The Dionysus myth is very similar to that of Orpeus and I haven't quite maged yet to disentangle the two.
The pine tree (pineal gland) is associated with him. He is the god of theatre ('all the world's a stage'). The Shakespeare/Bacon play 'A Comedy of Errors' is an allegorical account of the Dionysus myth. (Athene is the 'spear-shaker' and also the muse of Bacon).
http://www.sirbacon.org/mcomedyerrors.htm
Although the Osiris/Horus story is the original, every Hero-Journey story from Herakles to Harry Potter is a variation of the theme of Dionysus.
I could write for days about Dionysus.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:55 am

The Flaying of Marsyas

ImageImage


A picture of a man being flayed alive is unsettling enough. Sontag refers to Titian’s classic image of Marsyas being flayed as an example. Marsyas is the flute player who engaged in a musical contest with Apollo, and having lost, was flayed alive by the god. Having won the contest, Apollo either flayed Marsyas alive while the unfortunate musician hanged on a tall pine tree, or else he let a slave from Scythia do this. And while his skin was stripped off the surface of his body that was but one wound, Marsyas complained: “Why do you tear me from myself? Oh, I repent! Oh, a flute is not worth such a price!” (Ovid, Metamorphoses, 6.385). It is told that the god quickly repented, and being distressed at his horrible deed, he broke the four strings of the lyre that he had discovered. Marsyas thus serves as an example of how unsettling it is to witness an image of someone being flayed alive. But Marsyas did not experience ecstasy. The images of Marsyas show a man in horrible pain.

Sontag explains that this picture of the Chinese man is unsettling because it refutes the modern opposition of pain and pleasure. It provides photographic proof of the compatibility of extreme pain and ecstatic exaltation. We immediately grasp for some way to explain and compartmentalize this image. Bataille helps by providing the following caption to the photograph:

These shots were published in part by Dumas and Carpeaux. Carpeaux claims to have witnessed the torture on April 10, 1905. On March 25, 1905, the “Cheng-Pao” published the following decree: “The Mongolian Princes demand that the aforesaid Fou-Tchou-Li, guilty of the murder of Prince Ao-Han-Ouan, be burned alive, but the Emperor finds this torture too cruel and condemns Fou-Tchou-Li to death by Leng-Tch’e (cutting into pieces) Respect this!” This torture dates from the Manchu Dynasty (1644–1911). (Bataille, p. 204)

Bataille explains in his text that he believes this to be “the most anguishing of worlds accessible to us through images captured on film.” But anguish is not the only experience evoked by this photograph:

What I suddenly saw, and what imprisoned me in anguish—but at the same time delivered me from it—was the identity of these perfect contraries, divine ecstasy and its opposite, extreme horror Religion in its entirety was founded upon sacrifice. But only an interminable detour allows us to reach the instant where the contraries seem visibly conjoined, where the religious horror disclosed in sacrifice becomes linked to the abyss of eroticism, to the last shuddering tears that eroticism alone can illuminate. (Bataille, p. 205)

Bataille’s primary interest in his book is the link between the “little death” offered by eroticism and “definitive death.” But let us not get distracted by eroticism right now, and instead explore the “identity of these perfect contraries.”

As Sontag mentions, the modern view is that pain and pleasure are directly opposed to each other. One excludes the other in a simple zero-sum game. Jeremy Bentham founded that most modern of ethical theories, utilitarianism, on just this hedonic calculus. Utilitarianism calculates the ethical value of an action by summing the pleasure created and subtracting the pain produced. This theory acknowledges that something could be both pleasurable and painful. But the possibility that something could be pleasureable because it is painful throws the theory into disarray. Subsequent modern philosophers have challenged parts of Bentham’s calculus. For example, John Stuart Mill thought some pleasures were higher, or qualitatively better, than others, but he did not challenge the opposition between pleasure and pain. This theme can be found in modern poetry as well. The first stanza of Emily Dickinson’s poem “125” is:

For each ecstatic instant
We must an anguish pay
In keen and quivering ratio
To the ecstasy.

The modern framework rationally balances pain and pleasure in terms of ethical value and of what is deserved. To understand one’s reaction to the photo of the ecstatic tortured Chinese man, one needs to look beyond this framework.

This photograph does not really show the simultaneous experience of pain and pleasure. It shows both pain and ecstasy. The Oxford English Dictionary defines ecstasy as “the state of being ‘beside oneself,’ thrown into a frenzy or stupor, with anxiety, astonishment, fear or passion.” So it is clear that ecstasy can be produced by unpleasant experiences. As they further explain, “The classical senses of [the Greek word for ecstasy] are ‘insanity’ and ‘bewilderment,’ but in the late Greek the etymological meaning received another application, viz., ‘withdrawal of the soul from the body, mystic or prophetic trance’; hence, in later medical writers the word is used for trance etc., generally. Both the classical and post-classical senses came into the modern languages, and in the present uses they seem to be blended” (OED Online, accessed 9-22-04). So ecstasy encompasses the mystical “state of rapture where the body was supposed to become incapable of sensation, while the soul was engaged in the contemplation of divine things.” The Chinese man does indeed appear as if he might be engaged in the contemplation of divine things.
,,,,,,,,
What is not modern about this image of the Chinese man, and what makes the viewer cringe, is its picture of “extreme suffering as a kind of transfiguration.” This simply does not compute in a secular and scientific world view. In this world, pleasure is good, and pain is bad. The notion that pain and pleasure can fold back onto each other in complex ways is absent. The ways in which pain and pleasure can annihilate the self and liberate one from the bounds of the ego are not included. One exception to this rule is an intriguing study that showed that noxious thermal stimuli produced activation in putative reward circuitry as well as classic pain circuitry. (Becerra, Breiter, Wise, Gonzales, & Borsook, 2001). The authors conclude that their data “support the notion that there may be a shared neural system for evaluation of aversive and rewarding stimuli.” Although this finding provides a possible physiological mechanism for the ecstasy of martyrs, it makes it no less disconcerting.
,,,,,,
So, gaze upon this disturbing image of the Chinese man and observe how it makes you feel. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/nov04/path1.htm
This can indeed be a disturbing picture, so be warned, but if one is accustomed to the newspapers and the images on the news, then ought to be able to proceed, if not then the text is sufficient
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:50 am

Hi Stefan,
Whoa there fella, whoa I say. This symbolism thread is not the one we discussed - any similarities are purely synchronistic. ;) I've been stitched up by this thread :shock: My name is on it because, I'm guessing, Arc-us put it there when he split it from his thread. (Not a problem BTW).
I've no pot but I'll have a go at Pan anyway.

My favourite part of the wiki article is how it maintains that Homer and Plato got their Greek wrong but modern, non-Greek experts have corrected them. The psychology involved there frightens me to death.
The 'fanciful etymology' of Plato is in his Cratylus. Plato reduces all the etymologies of the gods' names down to referring either to movement or mind. This is basically Heraclitean philosophy - flux and logos. The only two gods which Socrates explicitly refrains from doing are Aphrodite and .... Dionysus.
The Greeks loved puns and word-play (Cratylus is an exercise in it) so why both meaning of 'Pan' can't be correct is beyond me. Both meanings make sense in the context of the symbolism.

I see Pan as yin to the yang of nymphs. Nymphs are usually described by the experts as representing natural phenomena but I see them as representing ecosystems or environments. For example trees host birds, insects, monkeys etc.; rivers: fish, insects, mammals. There are nymphs of valleys, mountains etc, etc. The connection to Cybele (Earth) would seem to support this view. What the experts call 'phallic' gods are creative elements of Nature. The phallus is a seed-dispenser. Everything comes from a seed and every seed needs an environment where is can grow (the female part of the equation).

The confusion surrounding the origin of Pan appears to me to be largely a result of modern experts trying to find the 'correct' version. The symbolism reveals the commonality.
A relationship with Hermes would connect Pan to the highest level of mind, i.e. the divine.
Penelope:
"In folk etymology, Πηνελόπη is usually understood to combine the Greek word for "web" or "woof" (πήνη / pene), and the word for "eye" or "face" (ὤψ / ōps), which is considered the most appropriate for a weaver of cunning whose motivation is hard to decipher[5],..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope
Web = web of life. Woof (weaving) = the rich tapestry of life. Eye could be looking after nature and face the visible aspect/productions
of nature. (The cunning part is reference to Odysseus' wife Penelope).
Dryope.
"In Greek mythology, Dryope[1] (Δρυόπη) was the daughter of Dryops ("oak-man").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope
Oak-man = world tree.
[This and subsequnet quotes from Pan wiki in Stefan's post above]
"Aeschylus in Rhesus distinguished between two Pans, one the son of Zeus and twin of Arcas, and one a son of Kronos. "In the retinue of Dionysos, or in depictions of wild landscapes, there appeared not only a great Pan, but also little Pans, Paniskoi, who played the same part as the Satyrs".
Same Pan, different Age therefore different manifestation or aspect thereof.

"In Zeus' battle with Typhon, Aegipan and Hermes stole back Zeus' "sinews" that Typhon had hidden away in the Corycian Cave.[11] Pan aided his foster-brother in the battle with the Titans by blowing his conch-horn and scattering them in terror".
In Nonnus' Dionysiaca Zeus orders Pan to give his pipes to Cadmus to play. Cadmus had hitherto been playing his own pipes to entertain Typhon. Pan's pipes intoxicate the listener and are irresistible and Zeus wants Typhon to be intoxicated (unthinking) before he wades in with the thiunderbolts. Eros (the younger) is supposed to help by shooting Typhon with an arrow, also irresistible (Typhon is all ego - so he will become even more enamoured of himself). Eros bottles out and fails to turn up - love conquered by fear (Nonnus never misses a trick). Cadmus cons Typhon into giving him Zeus' sinews (which he returns to Zeus). Basically, Cadmus says to Typhon 'if you think I'm good with pipes you should hear my lyre playing. Unfortunately, Apollo destroyed my lyre [true] but if only I had some decent gut for strings
I could knock up a replacement'. What better 'gut'than the sinews of mighty Zeus, father of gods and men? The rest, as they say, is history. :D

"Echo was torn to pieces and spread all over Earth. The goddess of the Earth, Gaia, received the pieces of Echo, whose voice remains repeating the last words of others. In some versions, Echo and Pan first had one child: Iambe".
The first two sentences suggest to me cyclical time (descending). Or Brahma breathes out. Iambe is a goddess of verse, thus continuing the family's musical connection (harmony of nature, music of the spheres etc).

I can't work out the Pan versus Apollo thing. The key, I think, is in the symbolism of the lyre. It was originally invented by Hermes who gave it to Apollo as recompense for stealing his cattle (I think). The are stories involving the different number of strings on the lyre (e.g.
3, 7 and 10). I've not really looked at these, they just pop up now and again.

Silenus. If you recall the discussion we had about the Mysteries a few months back on the Ancient Textual's thread, this site came up:
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/time ... eries.html
'Scene 2' features Silenus. As an aside: I said at the time that what the experts were calling a maiden looked to me more like a mature woman. If you look at the image of Penelope in the wiki link above, you will see what I mean. I know one is Greek and the other Roman but I
stick with my view. I also think that Silenus bears more than a passing resemblance to Socrates.

Marsyas. This story I would turn inside out (ouch). Marsyas' musical ability means he is in tune or harmony with Nature (or the Universe). Apollo is an aspect of the Sun (not worked out what specific aspect yet) which is itself a symbol of the ultimate power (The All). Removal
of his skin means he is no longer confined to a physical body (or has at least made some sort of step up). In Genesis, straight after eating the 'forbidden fruit', Adam and Eve notice that they are naked and cover themselves with animal hides to cover their shame (they must have been British - the only Europeans who don't have a naked body). Adam and Eve have just entered the physical realm, the world of generation.

"In the anecdotal account, he found the instrument on the ground where it had been tossed aside with a curse by its inventor Athena, after the other gods made sport of how her cheeks bulged when she played".
That is just a scurrilous rumour. Nothing could detract from Athene's beauty. :lol: Judi Trott's maybe... :shock: (Stefan can explain that one )

"Classical Greeks were unaware of such shamanistic overtones, and the Flaying of Marsyas became a theme for painting and sculpture".
That's a bit rich coming from modern experts who can't see the shamanistic overtones in Plato despite thousands of them picking over his words for hundreds of years.

"Jocelyn Small[18] identifies in Marsyas an artist great enough to challenge a god, who can only be defeated through a ruse".
That's because she is a modern expert.

Stefan, you know Chinese martial arts, isn't there a style called 'drunken god'? And if there is, do you know the name of the god?
Last edited by Grey Cloud on Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:56 am

From Stefan's post about the 'death of a hundred cuts':
The Oxford English Dictionary defines ecstasy as “the state of being ‘beside oneself,’ thrown into a frenzy or stupor, with anxiety, astonishment, fear or passion.”
...
“The classical senses of [the Greek word for ecstasy] are ‘insanity’ and ‘bewilderment,’ but in the late Greek the etymological meaning received another application, viz., ‘withdrawal of the soul from the body, mystic or prophetic trance’; hence, in later medical writers the word is used for trance etc., generally. Both the classical and post-classical senses came into the modern languages, and in the present uses they seem to be blended” (OED Online, accessed 9-22-04). So ecstasy encompasses the mystical “state of rapture where the body was supposed to become incapable of sensation, while the soul was engaged in the contemplation of divine things".
See my comments about ecstacy in the Dionysus post above. And I would suggest that the experts have the Greek the wrong way around. The earlier people would asociate the word with the divine and the later with madness. The Orphic/Dionysian tradition predates Classical Greece by centuries at least.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:52 pm

Hi Stefan,
Whoa there fella, whoa I say. This symbolism thread is not the one we discussed - any similarities are purely synchronistic. ;) I've been stitched up by this thread :shock: My name is on it because, I'm guessing, Arc-us put it there when he split it from his thread. (Not a problem BTW).
I've no pot but I'll have a go at Pan anyway.

You could have fooled on that one, synchronicity or resonance, :? or even actions of an egregore :? ;)
As to stay with Mague, one's got to play with the cards one is dealt with
Lot's a pot here, enough to put in a black kettle
I'll get back to you on the flaying or dismembering of persons, but first the red and blue on the green
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:05 pm

but first the red and blue on the green
I'd sooner watch paint dry.
[For the heathens among you, he is talking about Liverpool vs Chelsea football match].
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:09 pm

GreyCloud wrote:The confusion surrounding the origin of Pan appears to me to be largely a result of modern experts trying to find the 'correct' version. The symbolism reveals the commonality.
A relationship with Hermes would connect Pan to the highest level of mind, i.e. the divine.

Although I'm not sure if Pan is immediately the highest level of mind, I agree with you that the names of the likes of Apollo, Pan,Dionysus,Marsyas/Sylenus, are all connected and intertwined
But I think it is more to do with the divisions of the soul and the connection of soul and matter/nature, the dissolution thereof and where the story of Marsyas is one of the soul/nature, Pan might be more the soul of man itself in particular and Dionysius as soul of Man in general and perhaps Pan as well, Apollo will have his place, as Zeus is the Soul of the Cosmos
Marsyas/Silenus as the most excellent soul in nature is ready to be flayed, but he is highest of the other satyrs who are confused and running still more after our senses, recall the story of Narcissus (also with Echo)
In that way one gets a golden chain running of soul enmattered to the Divine Soul, at least that's just a thought :?

As for drunken chinese gods, I do not know, I have no knowledge about that, for sure there are chinese martial arts style that have some 'drunken boxing'-forms but that is more kungfu/shaolin-stuff, as far as I know
Personally, what might be more interesting is the representation of the playing of the flute played even by Marsyas and the whole chain up to Apollo and Athena, as in the blowing of the air through the reeds, I remember faguely something suggesting the internal energy system of chi and prana, but I would have to look that up
That and the whole connection of the Mysteries with dancing and music, calls some connotations with Sufi and African dance ceremonies

There are several versions of the contest; according to Hyginus, Marsyas was departing as victor after the first round, when Apollo, turning his lyre upside down, played the same tune. This was something that Marsyas could not do with his flute. According to another version Marsyas was defeated when Apollo added his voice to the sound of the lyre. Marsyas protested, arguing that the skill with the instrument was to be compared, not the voice. However, Apollo replied that when Marsyas blew into the pipes, he was doing almost the same thing himself. The Muses [The Muses are referees in Hyginus' telling.] supported Apollo's claim, leading to his victory. [The two most elaborated accounts are in two mythographers of the second century CE, Hyginus ("Fabulae", 165) and Pseudo-Apollodorus' "Bibliotheke" (i.4.2); see also Pliny's Natural History 16.89.]

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/47960

"In the anecdotal account, he found the instrument on the ground where it had been tossed aside with a curse by its inventor Athena, after the other gods made sport of how her cheeks bulged when she played".

That is just a scurrilous rumour. Nothing could detract from Athene's beauty. :lol: Judi Trott's maybe... :shock: (Stefan can explain that one )

Oy! , it would be fitting talking about Dionysius, to call that on level with louds and geezers, but it might be more befitting to say that I placed Athena's refulgent eyes in the Tensegrity-thread :shock: ;)
By the way you've got company in your opinion and not
The finding of the aulos

Marsyas was an expert player on the double-piped reed instrument pipe known as the aulos. in the anecdotal account, he found the instrument on the ground where it had been tossed aside with a curse by its inventor Athena, after the other gods made sport of how her cheeks bulged when she played. The fifth-century poet Telestes doubted that virginal Athena could have been motivated by such vanity, [Telestes, Fr. 805, quoted in "Deipnosophistae"] but in the second century AD, on the Acropolis of Athens itself, the voyager Pausanias saw "a statue of Athena striking Marsyas the Silenos for taking up the flutes that the goddess wished to be cast away for good."". [Pausanias, i.24.1.]
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/47960
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:58 am

I d say the hanged man is a forced removal of duality. In modern words an attempt to deal with a schizoid mind. A moving back to the unity of your energy flow and connection to the world/universe.
The snake is often a symbol for evil because of its split tongue. We would probably call it hypocritical. But in a holistic view it is that a 2nd person starts to talk out of a body and a potential possession is happening. Ritual torture often is about making sure the possessing spirit is a good one. Physical pain weakens the original persons mind and shows much clearer the true nature of the possessing spirit.

It is also used to show how serious you are when asking a god for a favor.

Another point is self destruction and self punishment. As i read, many psycho criminals tend to punish themselves and often want to get caught. It is a build in function in our mind. With every sin (whatever that is..) we commit we more and more start to be self destructive. Biting fingernails is a soft version of this. Something troubles that mind and the mind starts to cannibalize its own body. Harder cases are people who really hurt themself with burning cigarettes or razor blades. However, this is all "Hanged Man" as in "Stuck until a solution is found". The feet are the entry point of energy. If we turn upside down , then we ask for a godly intervention, some energy from above.

Yoga has the reverse version Yoga has good answers. Posture influences mind. Every posture opens a different room in the mind house. Same position in a different way. I saw also pictures of african and australian natives resting on one foot while putting the sole agains the knee of the standing leg. Again a resting/waiting posture.


Personally i think the Faun comes closest to Pan. He has more or in neo-esoteric terms, a higher energy then the humans. The "human" faun is known for his way above average sexual activities. Pan got his flute while chasing a Nymph and is in general linked to nymphs. But it is not about sexuality, it is about his high energy level that reflects in anything he is doing. He is releasing energy all the time by playing the flute, by exhaling while making music. He is high consciousness and has a lot of power, which makes him godly. But the high power level is also forcing his livestyle, which makes him a bit of a deamon too. Not an evil one, but anything obssesive is part of the deamons domain, not matter if you need to exhale to regulate your steam or not. The obsession is part of the deamons domain.

Grey Cloud, about the magican. Those symbols may represent worldly groups like church and nobility. But first of all they represent the four elements and the four forces of them. The mage uses physical, spiritual, emotional and intellectual power to create hist world. Fire, water, earth and wind. A sword is nothing without the right will behind it. The right will has to serve the right ideal. But none of those will do anything without the power to make it real.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:46 am

Grey Cloud wrote:
Your comments on 'grounding' were interesting. The first step in the Socratic method is to get rid of false assumptions (opinion). The second step is to get to the essence (as Socrates calls it) of the topic under discussion (e.g. virtue, love, justice). The third step is to use reason (not logic) to move forward to knowledge. (That's a very rough guide to the Socratic method).


Very good example of what i call universal pattern. On the search for god and his rules people recognized that some things have the same pattern when you abstract them. It was/is thought that when such an abstract pattern is endless repeatable, then it is a godly rule.

Grey Cloud wrote:As an aside (semi-humorous): Death (Thanatos) is carrying a flag which has a white rose on it. The white rose is the emblem of the county of Yorkshire in England (Kevin is from there). Across the Pennines (the 'backbone of England') is Lancashire (where I am from) which has the
red rose as its emblem. The white rose on the card is upside down.


Its a lily. See egypt. Funny, water lilies are of the family Nymphaeaceae. ;)
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby bdw000 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:13 pm

Mague:
While i have deep respect for Jesus we have to accept that he is not the beginning of time. His story just holds symbolic hints of a greater story.


If this post is too off-topic for you guys please feel free to have it deleted. I post it only because I think someone here might find it a very good read. Not possible to make guarantees, of course.

Anyone who wants to see that "greater story" in more detail, with all the symbolism mapped out to known physical entities, I suggest trying to get ahold of the book CAESAR'S MESSIAH by Joseph Atwill:

http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Conspiracy-Invent-Second/dp/1569754578/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239317851&sr=8-2

Since you can only get expensive used copies at amazon, If anyone is really interested, you can buy a second edition, with important additions (in PDF), by emailing the author at joeatwill@aol.com. The price used to be $40.

If anyone is ever going to get credit for "figuring out Christianity," my guess is that Atwill is the one. If you feel even just a nagging bit of interest about this, I would suggest going for it. I've had two main pastimes for the last 20 years: "alternate" physics/astronomy (why I'm here), and "New Testament Criticism" (aka "debunking the NT"). Of all the NT books I've read (many of them very good), Caesar's Messiah is hands down the best. This guy's thesis is so wild EU theory looks tame by comparison :) Even if Atwill's interpretation of his data turns out to be incorrect, the DATA ALONE can be pretty amazing for people interested in the subject.



Cliff Carrington's "Flavian Hypothesis" page is also pretty good:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/3678/flavian.html

A fantastic one-page bit of NT humor is here (though not sure the casual reader will "get it"):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/3678/RIPoff.html
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