symbolism, modern and past psychology

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:06 am

Hi bdw000,
Thanks for the 'Q' thing - I remember it now.

You wrote:
... study of the NT is strictly for entertainment purposes...There is simply no real use for any of it. A biblical scholar has recently devoted an entire book to saying just that, how much a waste of time it is (good book!).
There is knowledge in the NT as there is in the OT. Personally, I don't bother much with either as it too much bother to extricate it. Did the biblical scholar mention sybolism, allegory etc? Did he notice the similarities between the story of Jesus and countless other Hero journey stories from around the world? Did he remark upon the similarites between the teachings of Jesus and, say, Buddhism or Daoism?

You wrote:
Although, if you consider that ALL religion probably is nothing more or less than the deliberate manipulation of large numbers of humans, it might have a bit of practicality about it (just to know some of the details).
Religion, or more correctly religious ceremonies, were originally a method of altering one's state of consciousness. This was done through rhythmic chanting/music, ritual gestures, imbibing in the local 'herb' or 'brew', the location and acoustics of the temple etc. Religion was also originally a personal pursuit. It was
and is up to the individual to put in the effort. It was never designed to be a production-line. The teachings of all the great teachers say the same thing - the Truth is within. It is about personal effort and letting go of things. People do not want to make the effort and want to
accumulate things.
By the time of kali yuga people had become lazy and wanted others to do their thinking for them. The priests also became lazy and arranged things so that the minimum effort was required on their part.

People go to the movies and the circuses to be entertained so that they don't have to think for themselves and to forget about their life as a drone. They go because the system tells them to go.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:24 pm

Hi Mague,

Re the chakras, my fault but I meant correspondence with the planets rather than humans as such.
As far as the Jesus and conspiracy thing, have you read Dostoevsky's Brothers Kamarazov, specifically chapter 5 The Grand Inquisitor? The G.I. makes some great comments about going into the desert among other things. In fact it addresses several of the topics you mentioned in your post. It can be read here (in English):
The Grand Inquisitor
http://www.hermes-press.com/grand_inquisitor.htm
A great piece of writing. Works on several levels but the mostly revolve around the question of choice. Who is the guilty party here?

We will have to agree to disagree over the question of judgement. I also disagree that one can alter creation; I see it that one can only create, whether it is pandemonium or paradise, it is still creating. Given that daemons are part of the Universe too, the problem is ours not
the Universe's.

Having watched about an hour's worth of the Arrivals, I think I understand what you were getting at about the pyramid. Incidentally I thought that the Arrivals was the work of some seriously disturbed, very ignorant, people.

You wrote:
The virtual reality bubble called human culture is going to implode. It implodes because the ruling class has not clue at all anymore.
I see all knowledge as currently breaking down. Postmodernism and Deconstruction destroy existing knowledge and replace it with nothing except technicalese gibberish. Pop-culture debases everything it touches. Even tv adverts are complete computer-generated fantasy. All part of the plan (Logos) though, different age, different knowledge-base. The Bull of Dharma is regaining his feet.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:54 pm

Hi Stefan,
I was thinking more of your jpgs. May I proffer the following advice?
One who knows others is wise.
One who knows self is enlightened.
One who masters others is strong.
One who masters self is powerful.
One who makes a backup still has his images.

[Grey Cloud with a little help from Laotzu :oops: :) ]

Who is the painting by?
Apollo: Apoluon - the purifier. (From Cratylus).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:33 pm

I was thinking more of your jpgs. May I proffer the following advice?


Most gracious, some knowledge does seem to come from age and experience, both of which I'm still lacking for sure, but luckely you are most altruistic and compassionate in sharing in what you have plenty ;)

Who's the painting of?
Bartolomeo Manfredi
Bartolomeo Manfredi (baptised 25 August 1582–12 December 1622) was an Italian painter, a leading member of the Caravaggisti (followers of Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio) of the early 16th century.

http://art-image-studies.blogspot.com/2007/04/bartolomeo-manfredi-apollo-and-marsyas.html

Thank you for the verse LaoCloud, I shall try to give some Tao by Cleary, very nice (btw your signature is Laotze too, right?)
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:02 pm

Hi Stefan,
Thank you. My signature is indeed Laotzu but I'm not that good at following it. 'Sidetracked' is my middle name.
Nicholas Poussin is the artist to look out for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Poussin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_in_Arcadia_ego

And for a Judi Trott look-a-like
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Lilith.JPG
Snakes alive! :shock: :lol:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Stefan,
Thank you. My signature is indeed Laotzu but I'm not that good at following it. 'Sidetracked' is my middle name.
Nicholas Poussin is the artist to look out for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Poussin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_in_Arcadia_ego

And for a Judi Trott look-a-like
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Lilith.JPG
Snakes alive! :shock: :lol:

Poussin is nice for sure, last year I went to the dungeon of doom to see Raphael (very nice too)
http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Schede/SDRs/SDRs_03_02_020.html

O no, not Judi!! Away thou Snake!
Image
In this depiction of a myth, the Great Cat performs an heroic deed by killing Apophis, the evil snake.
http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/egypt/egcr08e.shtml
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:29 pm

"A path that can be verbalized is not a permanent path, terminology that can be designated is not constant terminology"

Taoism , in many forms, has long had an important role in the development of Chinese civilisation, particularly in the fields of natural science, medical arts, and psychology. An extremely complex phenomenon, taoism has used many media of expression and influenced many realms of thought and action through its long history. Among its modes of prohection and spheres of influence may be counted philosophy, politics, religion, folklore and mythology, satire and other forms of humor, visual art and design, poetry, music and song, drama and fiction, herbal and psychosomatic medicine, physical education, martial arts, military strategy, and alchemy, both material and spiritual.
In view of this remarkable profusion of forms, any attempt to establish historical links joining every one of the forms of activity that have been labeled Taoist meets with formidable problems. (...) Moreover, Taoist literature has noted for over two thousand years the existence of degenerations and aberrations under the rubric of the Tao; thus an assumed link between different forms of Taoism may well be one that has in fact lapsed, or one that was from the beginning fabricated by false analogy.

While it is beyond the scope of the present study to enter very far into the maze of taoist history, it is of some interest to glance at a few outstanding manifestations of Taoism while pursuing this theme of adaptation to the times. For example, one of the oldest texts of Taoism, presented in the form of a divination manual, was composed in a time when divination was formally considered a branch of government. Later, in an era when all serious thinkers wrote in the subject of political and social science, another classic appears in a formthat can be read as a treatise on political and social theory. during a period marked by the accelerated rise of hegemonism and tyranny, yet another text appears libertarian, even libertine and anarchic. Under similar conditions, with the rise of militarism, a classic manual of military strategy advocates a policy of minimal expenditures of lives, energy, and material. satire and fantastic poetry appear during a time of social upheavel and decay of an old order along with its world view; grass roots political organization emerges under the same conditions. Religious texts come to the fore during the growth of Chinese Buddhist churches, and collections of sayings of Taoist adepts paralell similar developments in Ch'an Buddhist literature. Martial arts are refined in an era marked by the overthrow of an alien dynasty as well as by repeated popular uprisings. Colloquial drama and fiction transmitting Taoist ideas appear during a time of growth of vernacular literature. Most recently, secularized Taoistic teachings are published as therapeutic arts after an anti-religious communist revolution.
This is, of course, a very simplistic picture of Taoism, somewhat in the spirit of Taoist imagery itself, designed to evoke a certain point of view and not to define historical fact. The historical origins of Taoism, like nearly everything else about it, are extremely obscure, veiled in allegory and myth; it may be that much of the material relating to the question of origins consists of, or is interlarded with, initiatory lore, the understanding and application of which would vary according to cicumsatnces. Sometimes Taoism is called the Huang-Lao teaching, after two important figureheads of the teaching alleged to have lived thousands of years ago; but even these people are presented in tradition as transmitters rather than originators of Taoistic teachings. Certain cultural prototypes often associated with observation, contemplation, and experiment; other teachings are attributed to spiritual revelations. A Taoist encyclopedia says that "Taoism" antedating all formulations is found in a recondite realm of mind where the customary divisions of thought do not exist.

In a sense, it might be possible to interpret the presence of so many marvels and wonders in Taoist lore as an indication of interest in human possibilities. It is often been observed, moreover, that much the same descriptions of extraordinary powers alleged to be available through esoteric knowledge are to be found all over the world. What is perhaps more significant than such possibilities is their effect on the world, and some esoteric traditions stress the issue of the use and function of supernormal knowledge and power more than the mere fact of their possibility. within Taoism, the question of the actual individual and collective benefit or harm deriving from the exercise of knowledge and power led some practitioners to subordinate everything in their path to the quest for permanent stabilization of consciousness.

Among the practitioners were the Taoist of the schools which became to be known by the name of Complete Reality. Complete Reality Taoism, which arose as a distinct movement between the 11th and 13th centuries, was concerned with the totality of experience and with furthering human progress in the realms of both conventional and ultimate truth. This concern manifested itself accordingly in both social and mystical practises, as the followers of Complete Reality strove to encompass what hey considered to be the essence of Buddhism and Confucianism as well as Taoism.
The impact of Complete Reality Taoism was very powerful, and in some areas it superseded the aged and failing schools of Ch'an Buddhism, which had for centuries exerted enormous influence on Chinese civilisation. To be sure, Complete Reality Taoism had much in common with Ch'an Buddhism, notably including concentrated meditation exercises and the practice of introducing fresh views of traditional teachings. Among the literary formats used in the projection of Complete Reality Taoism was the vocabulary and imagery of alchemy, one of the most ancient and widespread realms of interest in China, now adopted by these new Taoists as an allegory for a process of inner transformation and sublimation. One of the classics of this spiritual alchemy, Understanding Reality, is still considered a basic document of Taoist mental science.

From book II of Understanding Reality : Sixty-four verses modeled on the number of signs in the I Ching :

[62] On life and death (2 verses)

Take the door of death for the door of life;
do not take the gate of life as the gate of death.
If you comprehend the killing mechanism and understand reversal,
then you will know that blessing is born within injury.

[63]

The origins of calamity and fortune depend on and inhere in each other,
just as shadows and echoes follow forms and sounds.
If you can reverse this mechanism of enlivening and killing,
calamity will turn to fortune in the time it takes to turn over your hand.

(if needed I can provide the commentary)


I will leave it at this for now, there are some more related things, but all has it's time, perhaps.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:11 am

Hello Grey Cloud,

Grey Cloud wrote:
Re the chakras, my fault but I meant correspondence with the planets rather than humans as such.


Many people connect chakras to "external" stuff like planets. Personally i can not see that. For me the chakras of an entity are individual. I wasnt taught about them by humans, so my understanding might be a bit different.
Charkras are about "programming" and configuration. They are not written in stone. Every concept is something like a chakra. Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis is not only a intellectual mind pattern. It is part of a chakra configuration. Just like greek philosophy or roman lifestyle or or or. You load a though into a chakra and you will start to act in a certain way. Its is almost like a computer program. You load humanism and will act like a humanist, load imperialism and you will act like it.

Personally i was taught about the chakras of a body concerning its health. Thats why i dont know much about the more abstract features. However, the sun has no direct influence on the solar plexus. They are somehow relatives, but if the chakra there is disturbed, then it wasnt sun who disturbed it. It is all within the persons body and very close environment. Regarding the programming, the solar plexus chakra is about dealing with the trinity which is directly connected to the will. The forces of father, son and holy spirit. In common words you (the son), god (father) and the chi (holy spirit) all have their free will. When you make up your mind about those forces it happens in this chakra. The chi wants to go this way, god wants you to go that way and your ego wants to go somewhere as well. The balancing of this triangle results in your will. If you cant balance it your will is zero. (For the atheists this is true as well if you exchange god with the higher self)
Oh Lord, wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Thats it basically. ;) Ego wants a Mercedes. The question is if you have the power to go to a shop and buy one and does god agree with your wish ? Maybe god tells you that cars are poisoning the environment ? Or maybe he agrees but you cant get your butt of and go to a shop. If you cant balance it your will is frozen and nothing happens.
On the dark side you can override god and send your mother to buy the car. This is where sickness crawls in. The solar plexus chakra is powering the heart. Without a well balanced solar plexus your heart is not powered sufficient and turns weak. First sign is usually the loss of emotions. I think this is describing well how the "devil" is trying to control people !? ;) To heal this it is helping to open the chakra to the physical sun indeed. The configuration will change if you let the sunshine in. But it will completely alter your previous reality. It *really* does.

The whole chakra system of a body is more complex. But i thought this was a good example. Concerning planet earth or other entities it is not certain that there are the same chakras with the same functions. This is because everything has its own function/destiny in the universe.

The Kundalini... i d like to compare it to a processing pulse. A PC has a processing frequency of 2.4 Gigaherz for example. It is able to process code with every pulse. The Kundalini is a steady flow but contains pulses as well. Contrary to a PC the Kundalini transports multiple layers of pulses.
Some are fast, others are very slow. We have a proverb saying: "Gods mill is grinding slow sometimes"
Means some pulses have an incredible high frequency and causes create effects in "real time", while other causes take a long or very long time until they create effects. This is true for everything. Earths current "big pulse" is going to end soonish which also means that the program, consisting of the code in all of her chakras, will end. The next pulse is a new program.


Grey Cloud wrote:Having watched about an hour's worth of the Arrivals, I think I understand what you were getting at about the pyramid. Incidentally I thought that the Arrivals was the work of some seriously disturbed, very ignorant, people.

Really ? Was it that shocking/weird ? Well, the series was inspired by a much more "crazy" series and is the synthesis of it. I liked the 2nd a lot. But i have two faces and watch both sides at once :) Sometimes it requires a laughing and a crying eye to get the essence of the theater :) :(

Image
We seek to understand that within our Antinous is the nature of the Great Cosmic Pan, and also the Little Cloven-hoofed Pan of Mantineia.


Did you know that Harlequin is the derivation of Hellechino which means "little devil" ?


Grey Cloud wrote:
The virtual reality bubble called human culture is going to implode. It implodes because the ruling class has not clue at all anymore.
I see all knowledge as currently breaking down. Postmodernism and Deconstruction destroy existing knowledge and replace it with nothing except technicalese gibberish. Pop-culture debases everything it touches. Even tv adverts are complete computer-generated fantasy. All part of the plan (Logos) though, different age, different knowledge-base. The Bull of Dharma is regaining his feet.


Within your framework i think i can agree. But you may take it more literal. Once a cause had its effect an event is done. The pyramid is not part of the original earth program, it was planted into it long ago. Once the old pulse finished the old program the pyramid looses any meaning. All that is based on the pyramid will loose any meaning. Anything based on the pyramid will literally implode, because the cause is gone. And it doesnt matter how hard a potential conspiracy tries to re-implement it. The program was executed. Once finished earth re-configures and the pulse is carrying it away from earths system and the universal evolution is assimilating it. Pyramid Game over...
Since mainstream doesnt know how consciousness works i am curious what will happen if a basic key of it vanishes. All i can think of is an implosion ;)
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:48 am

Hi Mague,
Thanks for the comments about chakras. I will keep them in mind whenever I come across stuff about chakras.

About kundalini, you wrote:
Means some pulses have an incredible high frequency and causes create effects in "real time", while other causes take a long or very long time until they create effects. This is true for everything. Earths current "big pulse" is going to end soonish which also means that the program, consisting of the code in all of her chakras, will end. The next pulse is a new program.
I enjoyed this. It is more or less what I got from Nonnus' description
of Typhon in his 'Dionysiaca'. To me it was evident not only in his description of the physical or real time actions but also in the symbolism. As for cause and effect, see below.

About the Arrivals, you wrote:
Really ? Was it that shocking/weird ? Well, the series was inspired by a much more "crazy" series and is the synthesis of it. I liked the 2nd a lot. But i have two faces and watch both sides at once Sometimes it requires a laughing and a crying eye to get the essence of the theater.
I didn't find it shocking or weird, just crap. I've watched most of the documentaries which they ripped off to make their series.
I have 'more faces than a town hall clock' and always watch these things at several levels. None of the levels detected anything worth remembering in this series. To me it was just another variation on the usual Abrahamic nonsense of a bunch of ignorant, frightened, nobodies, saving the world on behalf of their omnipotent god who is somehow incapabale of doing it for himself. The Abrahamic religions are anathema to me as they represent practically everything I loathe and nothing of the values which I hold.
What was the series which inspired the Arrivals?

You wrote:
Once a cause had its effect an event is done.
Symbolically, this is what the Fates (or Norns) represent. They are the recorders of cause and effect. All the causes and effects woven together create the fabric of the physical world. The Fates don't decide destinies, they only maintain the Law. There are passages in the Iliad which make this quite clear. Even Zeus cannot pull rank on Clotho. There is a fantastic passage which I tried, unsuccessfully, at the weekend, to find, involving an angry an rude Zeus attempting to bully Clotho into terminating someone's thread. I'll have another look for it. There is another scene in the Iliad where Zeus knows that his mortal son Sarpedon (I think) is going to die in the fighting and Zeus is tempted to save him but Hera reminds her husband why this is impossible.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:50 am

Correction regarding the Fates: It should be Atropos not Clotho. :oops:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:40 am

Hi Stefan,
Interesting post about Taoism. I thought you might be interested in Cardona's analysis, from "Darkness and the Deep" http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophi ... rkness.txt
Apparently, it's all the planet Saturn. :o :shock: :?

4. Tohu Wa Bohu
...
What the words of Genesis are therefore telling us is that, in the beginning,
that is, as far back as man can remember, Saturn fashioned the land, which
was formless and empty, while the spirit of the same Saturn moved over the
darkened waters.
...
This is similar to what the Roman Ovid had to say concerning the creation as
believed in by his countrymen. "All nature was Chaos"..."Earth, Air, Water
heaved and turned in darkness." Likewise, the Chinese philosopher Lao-tze
(Lao-tse or Lao-tzu) had it stated that:

"There is something chaotic yet complete which existed before heaven and
earth. Oh how still it is and formless, standing alone without changing,
reaching everywhere without suffering harm. Its name I know not. To
designate it I call it Tao.

Or, in a different translation:

"Before Heaven and Earth existed There was something nebulous silent,
isolated, standing alone, changing not, eternally revolving without
fail, worthy to be the Mother of All Things. I do not know its name and
address it as Tao.

On this all-embracing First Principle, Lao-tze based an entire philosophy
whose influence on Chinese thought, art and literature, despite its varying
interpretation, has been prodigious. But that its basic idea derives from the
primeval events with which we are presently concerned, there seems to be no
doubt.

Cardona repeats the same nonsense in God Star, without, seemingly, having actually read the Tao Te Ching (his references are to other books). :roll:
Here's the full verse:
Formless no-thing,
Precedent of heaven and earth.
Timeless, unchanging, solitary, silent.
It is the mother of the ten thousand things.

I do not know its name.
I call it Tao.
If forced to describe it,
I call it great.

Great implies vast reaches.
Vast reaches implies far away.
Far away implies return.

Tao is great.
Heaven is great.
Earth is great.
Man, too, is great.
In the realm there are four greats,
and a noble man is one.

Man follows the way of earth.
Earth follows the way of heaven.
Heaven follows the way of Tao.
Tao is the great Way.
[Tao Te Ching 25. Bart Marshall trans.]

Lao Tzu says that talk of Tao has no flavour. Cardona says it tastes of Saturn. There again, Cardona says that everything tastes of Saturn.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby StefanR » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:04 am

GreyCloud wrote:Interesting post about Taoism. I thought you might be interested in Cardona's analysis, from "Darkness and the Deep"
Apparently, it's all the planet Saturn.


Mmm, very interesting. I wonder how you came up with that link, I'll have to give it a read, as it is not a small task to read such big texts.
But let me play a little with the Marsyas-info and some Chuang-tze for the fun of it all, like carnaval:

THE IDENTITY OF CONTRARIES
Tzŭ Ch‘i of Nan-kuo sat leaning on a table. Looking up to heaven, he sighed and became absent, as though soul and body had parted. Yen Chê‘ng Tzŭ Yu, who was standing by him, exclaimed "What are you thinking about that your body should become thus like dry wood, your mind like dead ashes? Surely the man now leaning on the table is not he who was here just now."
"My friend," replied Tzŭ Ch‘i, "your question is apposite. To-day I have buried myself. . . . Do you understand? . . . Ah! perhaps you only know the music of Man, and not that of Earth. Or even if you have heard the music of Earth, you have not heard the music of Heaven."
"Pray explain," said Tzŭ Yu.
"The breath of the universe," continued Tzŭ Ch‘i, "is called wind. At times, it is inactive. But when active, every aperture resounds to the blast. Have you never listened to its growing roar? Caves and dells of hill and forest, hollows in huge trees of many a span in girth,—these are like nostrils, like mouths, like ears, like beam-sockets, like goblets, like mortars, like ditches, like bogs. And the wind goes rushing through them, sniffing, snoring, singing, soughing, puffing, purling, whistling, whirring, now shrilly treble, now deeply bass, now soft, now loud; until, with a lull, silence reigns supreme. Have you never witnessed among the trees such a disturbance as this?"
"Well, then," inquired Tzŭ Yu, "since the music of Earth consists of nothing more than holes, and the music of Man of pipes and flutes, of what consists the music of Heaven?"
"The effect of the wind upon these various apertures," replied Tzŭ Ch‘i, "is not uniform. But what is it that gives to each the individuality, to all the potentiality, of sound? . . . Joy and anger, sorrow and happiness, caution and remorse, come upon us by turns, with ever-changing mood. They come like music from hollowness, like mushrooms from damp. Daily and nightly they alternate within us, but we cannot tell whence they spring. Can we then hope in a moment to lay our finger upon their very cause?
Image
http://www.carnaval.com/saturnalia/
"But for these emotions, I should not be. But for me, they would have no scope. So far we can go; but we do not know what it is that brings them into play. ’Twould seem to be a soul; but the clue to its existence is wanting. That such a power operates is credible enough, though we cannot see its form. It has functions without form.
"Take the human body with all its manifold divisions. Which part of it does a man love best? Does he not cherish all equally, or has he a preference? Do not all equally serve him? And do these servitors then govern themselves, or are they subdivided into rulers and subjects? Surely there is some soul which sways them all.
"But whether or not we ascertain what are the functions of this soul, it matters but little to the soul itself. For, coming into existence with this mortal coil of mine, with the exhaustion of this mortal coil its mandate will also be exhausted. To be harassed by the wear and tear of life, and to pass rapidly through it without possibility of arresting one's course,—is not this pitiful indeed? To labour without ceasing, and then, without living to enjoy the fruit, worn out, to depart, suddenly, one knows not whither,—is not that a just cause for grief?
"What advantage is there in what men call not dying? The body decomposes, and the mind goes with it. This is our real cause for sorrow. Can the world be so dull as not to see this? Or is it I alone who am dull, and others not so? . . . There is nothing which is not objective: there is nothing which is not subjective. But it is impossible to start from the objective. Only from subjective knowledge is it possible to proceed to objective knowledge. Hence it has been said, 'The objective emanates from the subjective; the subjective is consequent upon the objective. This is the Alternation Theory.' Nevertheless, when one is born, the other dies. When one is possible, the other is impossible. When one is affirmative, the other is negative. Which being the case, the true sage rejects all distinctions of this and that. He takes his refuge in God, and places himself in subjective relation with all things.
"And inasmuch as the subjective is also objective, and the objective also subjective, and as the contraries under each are indistinguishably blended, does it not become impossible for us to say whether subjective and objective really exist at all?
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"When subjective and objective are both without their correlates, that is the very axis of Tao. And when that axis passes through the centre at which all Infinities converge, positive and negative alike blend into an infinite One. . . Therefore it is that, viewed from the standpoint of Tao, a beam and a pillar are identical. So are ugliness and beauty, greatness, wickedness, perverseness, and strangeness. Separation is the same as construction: construction is the same as destruction. Nothing is subject either to construction or to destruction, for these conditions are brought together into One.
"Only the truly intelligent understand this principle of the identity of all things. They do not view things as apprehended by themselves, subjectively; but transfer themselves into the position of the things viewed. And viewing them thus they are able to comprehend them, nay, to master them; and he who can master them is near. 1 So it is that to place oneself in subjective relation with externals, without consciousness of their objectivity,—this is Tao. But to wear out one's intellect in an obstinate adherence to the individuality of things, not recognising the fact that all things are One,—this is called Three in the Morning."
"What is Three in the Morning?" asked Tzŭ Yu.
"A keeper of monkeys," replied Tzŭ Chi, "said with regard to their rations of chestnuts, that each monkey was to have three in the morning and four at night. But at this the monkeys were very angry, so the keeper said they might have four in the morning and three at night, with which arrangement they were all well pleased. The actual number of the chestnuts remained the same, but there was an adaptation to the likes and dislikes of those concerned. Such is the principle of putting oneself into subjective relation with externals.
"Wherefore the true sage, while regarding contraries as identical, adapts himself to the laws of Heaven. This is called following two courses at once.
"The knowledge of the men of old had a limit. It extended back to a period when matter did not exist. That was the extreme point to which their knowledge reached. The second period was that of matter, but of matter unconditioned. The third epoch saw matter conditioned, but contraries were still unknown. When these appeared, Tao began to decline. And with the decline of Tao, individual bias arose."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/mcm/mcm06.htm

THE MYSTERIOUS IMMANENCE OF TAO
Prince Hui's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand, every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of his knee, every whshh of rent flesh, every chhk of the chopper, was in perfect harmony,—rhythmical like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, simultaneous like the chords of the Ching Shou.
"Well done!" cried the Prince; "yours is skill indeed."
"Sire," replied the cook, "I have always devoted myself to Tao. It is better than skill. When I first began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me simply whole bullocks. After three years’ practice, I saw no more whole animals. And now I work with my mind and not with my eye. When my senses bid me stop, but my mind urges me on, I fall back upon eternal principles. I follow such openings or cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the animal. I do not attempt to cut through joints: still less through large bones.
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"A good cook changes his chopper once a year,—because he cuts. An ordinary cook, once a month,—because he hacks. But I have had this chopper nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the whetstone. For at the joints there are always interstices, and the edge of a chopper being without thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness into such an interstice. 1 By these means the interstice will be enlarged, and the blade will find plenty of room. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen years as though fresh from the whetstone.
"Nevertheless, when I come upon a hard part where the blade meets with a difficulty, I am all caution. I fix my eye on it. I stay my hand, and gently apply my blade, until with a hwah the part yields like earth crumbling to the ground. Then I take out my chopper, and stand up, and look around, and pause, until with an air of triumph I wipe my chopper and put it carefully away."
"Bravo!" cried the Prince. "From the words of this cook I have learnt how to take care of my life."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/mcm/mcm08.htm
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:06 am

StefanR wrote:

THE MYSTERIOUS IMMANENCE OF TAO
Prince Hui's cook was cutting up a bullock. Every blow of his hand, every heave of his shoulders, every tread of his foot, every thrust of his knee, every whshh of rent flesh, every chhk of the chopper, was in perfect harmony,—rhythmical like the dance of the Mulberry Grove, simultaneous like the chords of the Ching Shou.


Hello,

it boils down to the triangle of the solar plexus chakra then ?

Image

This is the opera in Frankfurt. The inscription translates to: For truth, beauty and the good. The TAO then is the art of balancing those ?! If we care for those in our life we navigate the TAO ?
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby mague » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:20 am

Grey Cloud wrote:What was the series which inspired the Arrivals?

The series is gone. The creator of it is mentioned in the #51 outro.

Grey Cloud wrote:
Once a cause had its effect an event is done.
Symbolically, this is what the Fates (or Norns) represent. They are the recorders of cause and effect. All the causes and effects woven together create the fabric of the physical world. The Fates don't decide destinies, they only maintain the Law. There are passages in the Iliad which make this quite clear. Even Zeus cannot pull rank on Clotho. There is a fantastic passage which I tried, unsuccessfully, at the weekend, to find, involving an angry an rude Zeus attempting to bully Clotho into terminating someone's thread. I'll have another look for it. There is another scene in the Iliad where Zeus knows that his mortal son Sarpedon (I think) is going to die in the fighting and Zeus is tempted to save him but Hera reminds her husband why this is impossible.


I never thought of this, but it is true. Did you know that the germans (tribe) knowed the Norns too ?
I found a nice picture...
http://www.hellenica.de/Griechenland/Mythos/Bild/AtroposClothoLachesisThuman.jpg

The picture shows well how they are again the (left to right) truth, beatuty and the good ;)
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Re: symbolism, modern and past psychology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:06 am

Hi Mague,
Nice images of the opera house andthe Norns.
'Truth, beauty and the Good' is the essence of Plato's philosophy.

Re the Fates, the reason they are associated with prophesy is that they can 'read' the tapestry.
The Norns:
Nuremberg, once known as Nornenberg, Norn's Mountain, is where the three Norns were said to live. They answered to no one. The two great deity-families of the Nordic-Germanic world, the Vanir and the Aesir, were themselves subject to this ancient female triad, for the Norns were older than the oldest god. Among themselves, the oldest and original Norn was Urd -- other variants of her name include Wurd (Old High German), Wryd (Anglo-Saxon, commonly translated as "Fate"), Weird (English), Urth, Urtha, Urdr, Urda, Ertha -- our word "earth" is derived from her. She was the Norn of destiny.

The second sister was Verthandi, "Being," or the one who governed the present moment. The third was Skuld, often translated as "Necessity," as in the "necessity" of repaying "a debt that all must pay" -- i.e., death. Thus, Skuld was the death-Norn who determined the length of each life. It was said that when Doomsday arrived, it would be Skuld who would lay the death-curse on the whole universe. Interestingly, shamanic-bard-poets known as skalds were Skuld's servants -- in their hands was the creation of visionary literature.

The three Norns were known collectively as Die Schreiberinnen, "the Writing Women," who wrote the on-going book of Destiny in which they revealed the deep secrets of the universe. They were the "three mysterious beings" of the Prose Edda -- High-One, Just-as-High, and Third. Sometimes they were depicted spinning the webs of fate but this is a Graeco-Roman influence from myths of the Three Fates, or Moirai. The Norns originally carved records of each destiny into staves of wood. They were writers, not spinners.

They lived in a womblike cave under Yggdrasill, the great ash that was the World Tree. Near their cave was the cosmic wellspring of life, destiny, and justice -- Urdarbrunnr, the "Well of Urd."
http://www.mythinglinks.org/euro~west~i ... berg2.html


Everything true, beautiful or good comes from the heart (the centre). It is Dionysus' heart which is rescued by Athene after he is dismembered by the Titans.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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