Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Lethosh
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by Lethosh » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:26 am

Greetings all, I have joined this site only recently.

I read Velikovsky back in the 70s, and discovered the EU hypothesis about 10 years ago. One thing and another have pulled me away over the years, but I'm back to the EU, which I am convinced "has wheels."

It was asked, on p. 2 of this thread, if Intelligent Design is testable. Not long ago, I watched an ID video in which Michael Behe said that it is indeed testable: all one need do is produce, through undirected means, organic matter from inorganic.

Anyway, I've seen it proven in many different ways that the evolutionary model doesn't work. It has been falsified in at least 5 different ways, which I could discuss if anybody wants to get into that; but I expect that those are waters most here may have already swum through.

Story time: a few months ago I was confronted with the assertion that modern archaeological discoveries had disproved the historicity of the Hebrew/Christian scriptures. Being a Theist, I wanted to know if it was true, so I researched it, only to discover that there was a raging battle between the Skeptics and the Biblicists, and the battle still rages. While relating this to a friend, I was informed of a documentary called "Priviledged Planet," which I see has already been cited on this thread. So I dug into ID theory, and I believe that I have come to a reasonably satisfactory understanding of it. However, there came a day when it occurred to me that ID was accepting (at least for the sake of argument) uniformitarianism. And that is unsatisfactory to me, so I looked up Electric Universe, and have been studying up all over again, and have come to the conclusion that EU is where science needs to go, because it squares with reality better than any other hypothesis. That said, I'm still a Theist, and there are passages in my Bible that still intrigue me to this day, such as the sun standing still in the sky, and Hezekiah's sundial moving backward.

I realize that what I am describing above is more story than science, but I'm quite ready to talk about both, and hope to do so, because the story that the best EU science can uncover looks pretty exciting, compelling, and worth talking about, to me.

chrimony
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by chrimony » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:17 pm

Lethosh wrote:Greetings all, I have joined this site only recently. [..] Story time: a few months ago I was confronted with the assertion that modern archaeological discoveries had disproved the historicity of the Hebrew/Christian scriptures. Being a Theist, I wanted to know if it was true
As an atheist, this is the kind of thing I'd debate against you, but keep in mind the site's policy against discussing religion. Unless you want to discuss an academic issue from a non-religious standpoint that has direct bearing on the EU, topics like the above don't belong here.

jtb
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by jtb » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:17 am

Lethosh wrote: there are passages in my Bible that still intrigue me to this day, such as the sun standing still in the sky, and Hezekiah's sundial moving backward.
Velikovsky's discussion of Joshua's long day and Hezekiah's sundial moving backward were instrumental in me finding the EU website. Joshua said "sun stand thou still"; not "Earth still thy rotation". "The Principle" is a documentary in theaters by Robert Sungenis arguing that either Earth is stationary and the universe revolving; or, vise versa. Science demonstrates that either scenario is possible.

Sungenis also published a book entitled "Geocentrism 101" with a summary of the scientific evidence, and sources, in easy to understand language.

fosborn_
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by fosborn_ » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:08 pm

chrimony wrote:
Lethosh wrote:Greetings all, I have joined this site only recently. [..] Story time: a few months ago I was confronted with the assertion that modern archaeological discoveries had disproved the historicity of the Hebrew/Christian scriptures. Being a Theist, I wanted to know if it was true
As an atheist, this is the kind of thing I'd debate against you, but keep in mind the site's policy against discussing religion. Unless you want to discuss an academic issue from a non-religious standpoint that has direct bearing on the EU, topics like the above don't belong here.
I think that's best left up to the moderators. I didn't see any lines were crossed. Use the report button if its offensive. IMO
Its an ID thread...
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov

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nick c
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by nick c » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:36 pm

I asked a question on page 2 of this thread
....how is "Intelligent Design" testable? Can we think of a test that will falsify the hypothesis? Nobody to my knowledge has ever proposed such a test, and is not falsifiability a key tenet of science?
In 7 pages of posts nobody has shown how Intelligent Design, as a scientific theory, can be tested whereby a certain result would constitute a falsification.

So, I am inclined to think that it is a matter of faith/religious belief and is therefore beyond the scope of this forum.

See the Forum Rules and Guidelines:
The discussion of political and religious matters is to be discouraged, except when clearly relevant to the discussion in progress.
Have we gotten all we are going to get from this topic? I am inclined to lock the thread, can anyone make a case for its' continuation?

fosborn_
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by fosborn_ » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:46 pm

nick c wrote:I asked a question on page 2 of this thread
....how is "Intelligent Design" testable? Can we think of a test that will falsify the hypothesis? Nobody to my knowledge has ever proposed such a test, and is not falsifiability a key tenet of science?
In 7 pages of posts nobody has shown how Intelligent Design, as a scientific theory, can be tested whereby a certain result would constitute a falsification.

So, I am inclined to think that it is a matter of faith/religious belief and is therefore beyond the scope of this forum.

See the Forum Rules and Guidelines:
The discussion of political and religious matters is to be discouraged, except when clearly relevant to the discussion in progress.
Have we gotten all we are going to get from this topic? I am inclined to lock the thread, can anyone make a case for its' continuation?
I maybe way off base, but I think you initially kept this thread on the rails, and seems like a great deal of effort went that direction. This is in the area of the human question. And the major paradigm shift EU requires, is going to inspire this level of noble discussion.This is a valuable thread, that may assist in that transition, if they (new members, or first time readers) can contribute with questions and the testing their assumptions.
I do think there are many potential contributions to be made by fresh influx of new members. And hope you might reconsider not locking this thread. What I think is most valuable about this forum, is the willingness to not through the baby out with the bath water, hence a great deal of patience with people's learning curves.
Thanks for putting it out for discussion.

So since I really stepped in this time, Ill offer this last ditch effort for sacrifice;
Maybe a falsification, if the universe wasn't universal, if a completely different physics could exist in the same universe. Big Bang theories say there would be a different physics before inflation. ID uses classical metaphysics to create the concept of existence, hence the necessity of a sustainer of it. If you even need the word in your vocabulary( existence) your relying on that metaphysics that philosophy is built on. Which the sciences are built on. Which EU tries to return to its original methods. IMO
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov

jtb
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by jtb » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:46 am

Hi Nick, I'll take a crack at the falsifiability of Intelligent Design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan.
All airplanes are “intelligently designed”. This statement may be falsified by observing a single airplane designed by “dumb luck”, the opposite of intelligent design. (I guess an example of dumb luck would be a bird designed through evolution)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law
A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspects of the universe. ...Laws … are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation.
By definition, it appears that intelligent design is a scientific law. Some may argue the point, but every airplane I have observed seems to be intelligently designed. I'd hate to fly in one designed by dumb luck.

Lethosh
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by Lethosh » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:06 am

Well.

I had hoped that better ability would be exhibited in distinguishing between personal story and science.

My case for the continuation of this thread is that ID & EU could stand to compare notes, test each others' thinking.
I think there needs to be a synthesis between the two schools. Both have compelling critiques against the current moribund cosmology.

ID needs EU so it can break free of the stultifying effects of curved space-time, black holes, expanding universe, ignorance of the strongest force in the universe, dark matter, dark energy, multiverses, and, of course, evolution in its already falsified common descent and undirected speciation.

EU needs ID also. This case is harder to make, but not impossible. Since ID has correctly and successfully critiqued the current paradigm, EU would benefit from its findings, such as irreducible complexity and the significance of code in DNA. EU already uses inference to the best explanation, as does ID.

They both need each other to call each other out when they make leaps beyond logic. ID needs to hear from EU that critique of the current paradigm is enough, and the demand by the current paradigm to "have something to show for it" is nonsense, as Wal Thornhill said at a recent EU conference. EU needs to hear from ID that, if we indeed do not have the means to determine the age of the universe, then it's not logical then to declare that the universe has always existed, which I've heard two different EU scientists say within minutes of saying the former.

Iron sharpens iron.

fosborn_
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by fosborn_ » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:59 am

then it's not logical then to declare that the universe has always existed, which I've heard two different EU scientists say within minutes of saying the former.
Are you implying an infinite universe is a falsification of ID?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov

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robinrenee
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by robinrenee » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:10 pm

[quote="Lethosh"]

"... if we indeed do not have the means to determine the age of the universe, then it's not logical then to declare that the universe has always existed, which I've heard two different EU scientists say within minutes of saying the former."

I think that our difficulty lies in the fact that we are biological creatures. We have a beginning and an end; therefore, we cannot fathom any construct without a beginning or end. Just because we are finite and constrained by time ... does not mean that the universe is not infinite and timeless.

Lethosh
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by Lethosh » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:12 pm

fosborn_ wrote:Are you implying an infinite universe is a falsification of ID?
Not even close. I think that ID could stand to realize that the big bang has been falsified, and stop using it as supposed proof for their claims when other evidence works better.
robinrenee wrote:Just because we are finite and constrained by time ... does not mean that the universe is not infinite and timeless.
Nor does it mean that the universe is infinite and timeless. What I am saying is that it would be best for EU & ID scientists to admit that we just don't know, and leave it at that, until evidence shows otherwise.

See, it pains me that ID uses some bad science from that quantum mechanics school as part of their argument. It's only going to get proven wrong, and they're going to have to go back to the drawing table. The sooner the better.

"The Priviledged Planet," for example, states as proof such things as eclipses proving that light bends, and therefore space curves, and this is supposed to prove, using bad science, that Earth is in a uniquely priviledged location for life and discovery. Well, light looks like it bends because it's refracted, so it's not really evidence after all.

So I accept the thesis of ID, but I wish they wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot by using bad science. I'm convinced EU is the physics of the future. So a synthesis is needed. But now I'm repeating myself.

Webbman
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by Webbman » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:31 pm

cant be that intelligent, unless this is some kind of test.....
its all lies.

LunarSabbathTruth
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by LunarSabbathTruth » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:16 am

Lethosh wrote:....

ID needs EU so it can break free of the stultifying effects of curved space-time, black holes, expanding universe, ignorance of the strongest force in the universe, dark matter, dark energy, multiverses, and, of course, evolution in its already falsified common descent and undirected speciation.

EU needs ID also. This case is harder to make, but not impossible. Since ID has correctly and successfully critiqued the current paradigm, EU would benefit from its findings, such as irreducible complexity and the significance of code in DNA. EU already uses inference to the best explanation, as does ID.
.....
Some excellent points there.

ID is basically mainstream science with the relatively minor modification of applying probability and statistics to deduce the presence of a Designer. Everything else is "off-the-shelf" geology and cosmology. I will also add "off-the-shelf" history to the list - "the ancients saw the exact same skyscape we see today; they just had an active imagination", etc.

On the other hand, sometime in the future EU may find that it has painted itself into a corner. Although some make an effort to separate it from "Big Bang Creationism", the question of "Where does the current come from" may become significant, and the answer "We will probably never know" may not be satisfactory.

- joe

fosborn_
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by fosborn_ » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:54 pm

On the other hand, sometime in the future EU may find that it has painted itself into a corner. Although some make an effort to separate it from "Big Bang Creationism", the question of "Where does the current come from" may become significant, and the answer "We will probably never know" may not be satisfactory.

- joe
my highlight

I always have put faith in plasma instability, it eluded fusion power generation for decades. It doesn't seem to need the chicken or the egg question.

I'm thinking Nick C s clarity apply s to this discussion;
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... 188#p84530
The EU position is that there is no evidence that the universe had a beginning or any boundaries. That postulating a birth to the universe, is simply beyond our present state of knowledge and/or our abilities to make observations.
Its this kind of science that gets me all excited about the constant mysteries we can be aware of and be filled with wonder about.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov

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robinrenee
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Re: Intelligent Design in an Electric Universe?

Unread post by robinrenee » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:40 pm

the question of "Where does the current come from" may become significant, and the answer "We will probably never know" may not be satisfactory.
It worked for the Big Bang theory....and dark matter... and dark energy...

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