How did ancient peoples know "so much"?

[junglelord]

Magnificent, reminds me of Fuller. Structure and Function cannot be seperated. The form of charge, which is distributed and not a particle or a wave, is non material, like the magnetic field, but it has observable structure. This fractal design just hit me today. The Earth with the Van Allen Belts is the EM Toroid surrounding the ES sphere, and so it is with APM and the e-....then I though again, OMG its all the same.....then I saw your house...I bet your mind can resonate with the Earth in an amplified way via that structure....yes thats what I believe.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Nick and Alton,
I'm not really convinced by either of your definitions but with hindsight I don't think that there is necessarily any difference between 'engine' and 'machine'. I've read of 'war machines' and 'engines of war' with both phrases pertaing to the same dinguses - trebuchets, catapults etc.
The man for either or both is Archimedes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes ... inventions - he even had a heat-ray! I've read a Roman account of the seige of Syracuse. The Romans were not happy about what he did to their ships.

[altonhare]

Hi Nick and Alton,
I'm not really convinced by either of your definitions but with hindsight I don't think that there is necessarily any difference between 'engine' and 'machine'. I've read of 'war machines' and 'engines of war' with both phrases pertaing to the same dinguses - trebuchets, catapults etc.
The man for either or both is Archimedes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes ... inventions - he even had a heat-ray! I've read a Roman account of the seige of Syracuse. The Romans were not happy about what he did to their ships.

Of course, as with any lingo, terms were probably used loosely at one point or another and differently by various peoples. If a group were to decide on a clear distinction between "engine" and "machine" it seems intuitive to me to distinguish them by a state change of matter. Of course if no society every decided to make the distinction clear then that doesn't mean much .

[junglelord]

Confused tongues...I believe that is the Tower of Babel.

[Jaythree]

The piano was an orange/red baby grand that stayed with the house since it was built. The acoustics were fairly neutral, despite the open space and 20 ft high plate glass walls. In a couple of places, though, you could whisper something and hear it on the opposite side of the house.

[mague]

Hi Nick and Alton,
I'm not really convinced by either of your definitions but with hindsight I don't think that there is necessarily any difference between 'engine' and 'machine'. I've read of 'war machines' and 'engines of war' with both phrases pertaing to the same dinguses - trebuchets, catapults etc.
The man for either or both is Archimedes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes ... inventions - he even had a heat-ray! I've read a Roman account of the seige of Syracuse. The Romans were not happy about what he did to their ships.

How about the original text. Is it latin or greek ? Does it use different words for machine and engine ? And if so, what do they mean in context of their own language ? What is a windmill in the native lanuage context ? Which part of the windmill is machine and which part engine ?

[StefanR]

The man for either or both is Archimedes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes ... inventions - he even had a heat-ray! I've read a Roman account of the seige of Syracuse. The Romans were not happy about what he did to their ships.

And not to forget of course :

Hero (or Heron) of Alexandria (Greek: Ήρων ο Αλεξανδρεύς) (c. 10–70 AD). was an ancient Greek mathematician who was a resident of a Roman province (Ptolemaic Egypt); he was also an engineer who was active in his hometown of Alexandria. He is considered the greatest experimenter of antiquity[1] and his work is representative of the Hellenistic scientific tradition.[2]

Among his most famous inventions were the first documented steam-powered device, the aeolipile, and a windwheel, constituting one of the earliest instances of wind harnessing.[3][4] He is said to have been a follower of the Atomists. Some of his ideas were derived from the works of Ctesibius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

THE PNEUMATICS OF HERO OF ALEXANDRIA
http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/

Heron of Alexandria
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

[GaryN]

I always 'wanted to believe', about the Bosnian pyramids, that is.
I have had some previous communication with Mr Osmanagic concerning some of the South American pyramids he had explored. Though there is very little written about it, even some of the smaller ones have similar passage and chamber layouts to the Egyptian pyramids inside, with odd angles and sloping floors, often just big enough for a person to navigate, and very hot and claustrophobic. IMO, these, like the Egyptian pyramids, are machines, not monuments.
Being as Mr Osmanagic is an engineer, and I being quite familiar with Autocad, I had asked him about the lack of blueprints or plans or even rock engravings for construction of the Egyptian pyramids. You just don't start building something like a pyramid without plans, and we both agreed that the plans required for the big pyramids would require many thousands of drawings, or more computing horsepower than is found in the average engineering office.
This latest news about the Bosnian structures, though bound to be disputed, would seem to show that the materials science of the inhabitants of the time was quite advanced. The only organic item, a piece of wood found in the tunnels underneath the pyramids, has been carbon dated to over 30 thousand years. Time for a rewriting of history?

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/en/index.ph ... CRETE.html

[nick c]

Hello GaryN,
I am convinced that Egyptians built the pyramids by themselves, there is plenty of evidence.
-Stones have quarry marks
-the quarries are known
-some stones are "signed" by the (definetly Egyptian) work gangs
-though the golden age of pyramid building is the 4th dynasty of the Old Kingdom, pyramid building continued through out Egyptian history
-there is an evolution of design and building technique in the various pyramids peaking with the Great Pyramid
-there are ancient references to building of pyramids
-while the structures are amazing in magnitude, the pyramid design is
in itself basic, stacking stones on top of stones
-external and internal structure varies between pyramids
-there is very little air space (chambers) in pyramids, most are pretty much solid (blocks of) stone, some have chambers underneath the structure
-pyramid, megalithic structures, and mound building I would say arose around the world as a reaction to past catastrophes, the pyramid or mound is the world mountain
-they served an economic need, and were in effect vast public works projects providing off season employment for farmers and served to unify the nation under a central government
-there is an evolution of design from mastaba, to step pyramid, to true pyramid
-some pyramids had design flaws: their is evidence that the pyramid at Meidum collapsed while under construction, [url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Mendelssohn]Mendelsohn[/url2] [The Riddle of the Pyramids (1974 )]has shown that the blocks were inaccurately cut, causing the structure to collapse because of plastic flow. It was the first attempt to make the transition from a step pyramid to a smooth sided at the disirable angle of 52 degrees. Nothing else was ever built at Meidum, the site was, presumably, cursed. The Bent Pyramid at Dashur, which is believed to have been under construction at the same time was revised, the lower half is at 54 degrees and the upper half at 43 degrees, adjusting the angle of the sides to prevent a collapse as occurred at Meidum. The next pyramid, also at Dashur, was built entirely at the safe angle of 43 degrees. Later, the three pyramids at Giza were built at the angle of 52 degrees, the stones exquisitely squared preventing another calamity as at Meidum. The Egyptians learned pyramid building by trial and error.
-I would assume that blueprints were on rolls of papyri and have not survived, there are very few extant Old Kingdom papyri
-Do you have a source for that 30,000 year radiocarbon date? It is very unlikely, even if there were such a result it would never be published because Egyptologists censor any radiocarbon dates that don't comply to accepted chronology, it would likely be discarded as "contaminated." If it does exist than it merely substantiates the ineffectiveness of radiometric dating. Whenever radiocarbon dating has been put to a test it has failed.
see:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... rbon#p9353

nick c

[GaryN]

Hi nick c,

Here is the link to the RC dating test:

http://www.icbp.ba/documents/reports/AP ... rt_14C.pdf

I agree that the accuracy of all c14 testing may be in doubt, we just don't know enough about what has happened over time that could have rendered all methods of assesing the age of any substance useless.

I can also accept that many structures were built by ordinary humans, but feel that they may have been built in an attemp to copy already existing structures from much further back in history. As for just 'stacking stones on top of stones', we obviously have very different views on the complexity of these structures!

[kevin]

nick c,
I consider that the pyramids, that are a global phenonoma, with lots of them here in the UK, silbury hill the most famous, but many more, are constructions to manipulate the aether flows locally about them.
They do employ concrete in various mixes using local gravel , clay and lime, they are then covered in alternative layers ala reich with organic and inorganic materials.
They are sited to match precisely the local matrix lattice , and the materials are utilised that interact with the aether, especially limestone which is predominately composed of zillions of cocoliths, tiny flying saucer shaped remnants which act just as flying saucers do.
The nonesense about burial is aveil to shroud the encoded manipulation of the aether.
Concrete is merely a method of making large stones out of smaller grains of desired materials.
The objective is to both store up the potential, and use it locally, both physically and in the journey between life and death, with subsequent re-birth locally desired.
Kevin

[lizzie]

Kevin said: The nonesense about burial is a veil to shroud the encoded manipulation of the aether. Concrete is merely a method of making large stones out of smaller grains of desired materials. The objective is to both store up the potential, and use it locally, both physically and in the journey between life and death, with subsequent re-birth locally desired.

LOL, Kevin! Right on target as usual! After all, it probably takes a dowser to know a dowser!

Pyramid Power: The Secret Energy of the Ancients Revealed
http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780892811069-7

Pyramid Power, the secret energy harnessed by the ancients, preserves food stuffs, amplifies thought forms, and increases sexual vitality. Here is the latest fabulous and provocative information on pyramids around the world, instructions on building your own pyramid, and suggested experiments.

Pyramid Double Helix - 11/01/97
http://keelynet.com/unclass/hardy1.htm

Mary and Dean have written two excellent books, Pyramid Energy and a revised edition available from them at the address at the end of this file. It is one of the best books on pyramid energies that I have read primarily because it involves the use of energy to form what has been termed 'Standing Columnar Waves.' It also deals with patterns that seem to influence energy for specific effects.

Imagine three pyramids, the ones on the left and right are identical with smooth sides. The pyramid in the middle is a stepped pyramid commonly called a Ziggurat. All three pyramids have a shaft leading from the base down underground. These vertical shafts all connect to a common horizontal shaft. The walls of these shafts and the corridor were covered with these mystery tiles.

Doug said the pyramids on the left and right were normal pyramids while the center one was a ziggurat (stepped). Now if energy was in fact somehow received or transmitted by such a stepped pyramid, it would function as a lens commonly termed a FRESNEL. Therefore, it appeared to be some form of SCALAR INTERFEROMETER with the left and right pyramids acting as either transmitters or receivers and the center acting as a concentrating lens or targeting lens.

These tiles lined the connecting corridors between all three pyramids and would seem to be some form of channel for a very high intensity energy. Interestingly enough, in Mary and Dean's many trips to Egypt, they have found several interior anomalies in the Cheops pyramid that are commonly known, yet from their research, they have come up with a new twist on what these anomalies were produced by or used for.

I will not go into great detail as it is covered quite well in their fascinating book, however, Mary and Dean feel that the Ark of the Covenant was an energy accumulator that was used in conjunction with the pyramids.

They cite a mysterious channel in one large room of Cheops which would perfectly fit the Ark. But the best twist yet is a recessed chamber which is cut into the wall in such a fashion that the Ark would fit directly in the largest lower space. That chamber is stepped in a pyramid type fashion also and is marked with SPIRALLING SCORCH marks that run to the top of the chamber!

Mary and Dean believe that the Ark was charged and placed into this recessed chamber. When the Ark was triggered to release its accumulated energy, it discharged upwards and formed the spiralling configuration that is now seen as the scorch marks on the wall.

What is a Fresnel
http://www.seleconlight.com/index.php?o ... view&id=90

They are called a ‘Fresnel’ because they use a ‘Fresnel’ lens, recognised by the characteristic ‘stepped’ moulding on one face and the texturing on the other, named after its designer, Augustin Fresnel.

This Fresnel lens produces a very even light that is soft at the edges and tends to project a soft shadow. Because the edge of the light is soft, it is not absolutely precise and will blend easily with the edges of other Fresnels to give smooth stage coverage.

The Tesla Magnifying Transmitter
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tmt.htm

The Magnifying Transmitter by Nikola Tesla : "...It is a resonant transformer with a secondary in which the parts charged to a high potential, are of considerable area and arranged in space along ideal enveloping surfaces of very large radii of curvature, and at proper distances from one another thereby insuring a small electrical surface density everywhere so that no leak can occur even if the conductor is bare. It is suitable for any frequency,from a few to many thousands of cycles per second, and can be used in the production of currents of tremedous volume and moderate pressure, or of smaller amperage and immense electro-motive force. The maximum electric tension is merely dependant on the curvature of the surfaces on which the charged elements are situated and the area of the latter."

In the Tesla's Magnifying transmitter, the energy is continuously bounced back and forth between the earth and the reflecting capacitance at a rate timed to a natural rate of the earth.

Nikola Tesla has said in a patent about improvements relating to the Transmission of Electrical energy: ".....Stated otherwise, the terrestrial conductor is thrown into resonance with the oscillations impressed upon it just like a wire. More than this, a number of facts ascertained by me clearly show that the movement of electricity through it follows certain laws with nearly mathematical rigor. For the present it will be sufficient to state, that the earth behaves like a perfectly smooth or polished conductor of inappreciable resistance, with capacity and self-induction uniformly distributed along the axis of symmetry of waves propagation and transmitting slow electrical oscillations without sensible distortion and attenuation. Besides the above, three requirements seem to be essential to the establishment of the resonating condition.

Nikola Tesla, Scalar Electromagnetics, Free Energy From The Vacuum and Scalar Interferometers
http://cosmiclifesite.com/id28.html

A scalar interferometer has two antennas (transmitters), they transmit scalar EM waves to create an energetic effect in the target area. The scalar EM waves travel in the curvature of space-time and not in three dimensional space, there is no distance and time restraint. The EM waves can contain different hidden dynamics to create different desired energetic effects.

Scalar interferometers can:

- In the "exothermic" mode, delivers a blast of energy the level of a nuclear explosion to the target area, killing every living being instantly. The power setting can be adjusted freely. At a lower power setting, it can disable all enemy weapon control electronics and render those weapons totally useless.

- In the "endothermic" mode, it can suck energy out of the target zone and deep freeze the entire area.

- By using both the "exothermic" and "endothermic" modes, it can perform weather engineering, such as creating earthquakes, hurricane, storm, abrupt temperature change, drought, etc.

- In the "Mind-snapper" or also called "Psycho-energetic" mode, it can disrupt the electromagnetic mind-body connection of a human being, depends on the power setting, causing him to lose consciousness or being hypnotized, or just die instantly.

- Its EM waves dynamics can contain varies human disease EM patterns and make the entire target area populace sick, or die, when functioning in the "bioenergetics" mode.

[altonhare]

Just a light-hearted reprieve from all the dh00m and g100m.

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur

[cloop]

What a great thread! I'm particularly interested in the construction side of things and would like to throw a few things into the mix.
Firstly on the subject of moving blocks of stone, sailors of yore would know that 'jerking' a rope gets more work done than any amount of steady pulling. Hence a drum beating out the rythmn or some musical device.
Secondly on artificial stone; I once, some years back, came across a web site on the Great Pyramid from France or at least some of the content was. They where suggesting that the blocks where nearly all cast in place, evidently in some blocks could be seen the remains of labourers lunches, chicken bones I think they said. I have somewhere in my collection of photos a picture of the hole that is in a side of the Pyramid that has a stairway in it and even before I knew about the French theory, I recognised 'casting' marks on one of the exposed block ends. Namely the surface had the look of those coarse fibre mats. Sisal? Papyrus? Jute? I suspect they had a strong but easily moved wooden frame covered with said mat, no form ply back then I believe and they simply poured bags of crushed and broken rubble into it and performed whatever alchemy they had back then to harden it. See;
/www.geopolymer.org/category/archaeology
http://survive2012.com/cosmic_ray_shelters.html for more and also on the theory that it and others where used as cosmic bomb shelters!
I've only scanned the last few pages of this thread, but I think I didn't see any mention of the Pryamid as a pump, coupled with water and canals and barges, locks etc as a way of facilitating its construction! No need for ramps that would have contained more material than the actual pryamid. They suggest that the stones where all barged in using one face and using the perimeter stones as a ponding arrangement, hence some reports of levitation and horns. I'd imagine a viewer (Greek) of the construction site, might think the Egyptians had magical powers if they could see blocks of stones seemingly floating into place accompanied with horns blowing; the lock master or if you prefer a modern analogy, the crane dogman just doing his job. The lower levels where filled by aquaduct and then using the ginormus pump they had built, the Kings 'Tomb', the upper levels where built and the locks, canal where filled. The pump may have been powered by something as prosaic as Accia resin dust or as exotic as hydrogen made from power produced from an Arc of the Covenant, emphisis on the word 'ARC' as in electrickery.
There is talk of blocks being 'planed' at the quarry by using Garnet imbedded in the path and walls to the barge. Garnet or diamond embedded saws for cutting and drilling set in resin. Also for machining the perfect round fillets on some bases of some buildings. The barges would have been hollow, like two hulls and the blocks would have been slung or sat on ledges. Now here's a new thought thanks to this thread and the mention of iron, perhaps thin iron ledges so they could be floated in the minimum amount of water, ballast to adjust the height/draft of said barge. I'm sorry I don't have a web address for you, a search should find it again easily and if I spot it amongst my files I'll post it. Google 'Pryamid as a pump' and something will be there. du oh.
In South America there are those 'mysterious' stone balls, well to my mind they are nothing but ball bearings for moving stones, maybe the stones where lifted onto the balls using similar stuff to Wallington.
Oh and by the way Cymatics is the science of vibration made visble, e.g. a sand covered metal plate stroked with a violin bow.

[altonhare]

Apparently my link goes to today's non-sequitur, not the particular day I wanted. Here's the actual link, with the comic that is funny in the context of this thread:

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2009/12/07