How did ancient peoples know "so much"?

[kevin]

Altonhare,
If You grasp what I say here, you may understand how a flying saucer works ,. and becomes invisable as it does.
The objects do not move towards each other, it is the circulating flows of aether around them that move towards each other.
The objects are acting symbiotically with the aether flowing, and cause a restriction about themselves.
Dependant upon the chirality and celluler structure of the spheres will result in an attraction.
if you reverse the circulation about one sphere, it will result in a push between the spheres been found, if you were to increase the circulation about either sphere in it's normal direction, you can increase the attraction, then the smaller sphere will be deemed as been heavier, it won't actually alter at all.
Kevin

[kevin]

Altonhare,
It is You that cannot comprehend about the aether, YOU therefore cannot comprehend of what I am waffling about.
To those that can comprehend of the aethers way's, I will make somewhat sense to them.
Kevin

[altonhare]

Altonhare,
It is You that cannot comprehend about the aether, YOU therefore cannot comprehend of what I am waffling about.
To those that can comprehend of the aethers way's, I will make somewhat sense to them.
Kevin

Unfortunately this is the argument of authority, that everyone else out there (especially the skeptics!) are simply incapable of understanding what they're doing. They write you off if you haven't had 4 years of physics undergrad and at least 4 years of physics grad. Even after this milestones are met, just try and question them and they'll tell you that you don't understand, you're a crank, etc.

Fortunately for them they live in the 21st century, full of amazing gadgets and technology, which they can lay claim to. Whereas in past centuries more people would be skeptical of such elitism, technology has rendered them practically untouchable.

Unfortunately for you, Kevin, you have not produced any flying saucers or invisibility cloaks. I recommend you pursue these lines fastidiously and you may be promoted among the ranks of the great "physicists" of the modern era.

[altonhare]

Altonhare,
If You grasp what I say here, you may understand how a flying saucer works ,. and becomes invisable as it does.
The objects do not move towards each other, it is the circulating flows of aether around them that move towards each other.
The objects are acting symbiotically with the aether flowing, and cause a restriction about themselves.
Dependant upon the chirality and celluler structure of the spheres will result in an attraction.
if you reverse the circulation about one sphere, it will result in a push between the spheres been found, if you were to increase the circulation about either sphere in it's normal direction, you can increase the attraction, then the smaller sphere will be deemed as been heavier, it won't actually alter at all.
Kevin

Two objects A and B. Aether is flowing around them. They cause a "restriction about themselves". A restriction of what?

[kevin]

The earth is not tilting or rotating in a precessional manner.
The aether flows are spiral and the earth is going with the flows, as is everything.
All of creation is going with the flows, as this planet reachs a geometrical point where it skips onto another flo, it will possibly also apparently tilt to a new pole position, it won't actually move at all, it will be the angle it settles upon on the flow it clips onto, all the flows will be spirals, I doubt therefore there will be anything more than a 45 degree alteration in the pole, Unless a total reversal occurs, the total reversal will be far less chaotic than a partial one, it will be confusing as the sun and moon will appear to reverse directions.
The partial alteration is far more dangerous as the ice will melt rapidly, but freeze far slower, hence the sudden raise in sea levels globally, the weight of the ice will also cause land mass to sink, due to the earth been a thin hollow sphere, much like a balloon.
it will occur in an instant.
The suddenness may result in tsunami's as the liquid reacts at a different rate than the solids.
As this occurs pressures around the sphere will raise and fall to match the input and output pressures of the relevant alignments, hence continents will sink miles and mountains will rise instantly to match the pressure differentials.
Space is pressurised but to various amounts along the flow directions, those pressures are variable due to the resistance of other spheres in alignment with them
kevin

[kevin]

Altonhare,
the created mass does cause alteration in the local flow about itself, those flows are the no-thing flows.
The shape and inherant anguler refractive nature of the mass acts upon no-thing flows.
I do not need to build flying saucers or create invisability cloaks, we have those already.
Invisability is how the cloaked devices operate, and those that do KNOW desire to conceal, normally under the veil of military secrets.
Sight is not by linear means, it is via signal pathways between sender and reciever and those are spiral, if you have no spiral return spiral, to the observer the object will not be visable, it's all by field.
There could be a huge planet really close by, but if it's field caused it's spiral signal pathway to not align with here, it would not be visable, but it's effects will be noticable, as it's circulating field structure will cause interferance patterns in all adjoing patterns.
If I had gone to university, I would not KNOW these things, I would have had RAM memory inserted so solidly that any new information would be fought off by that RAM.
Funny how these names remind me of sheep(el)
Kevin

[altonhare]

The objects do not move towards each other, it is the circulating flows of aether around them that move towards each other.
The objects are acting symbiotically with the aether flowing, and cause a restriction about themselves.

Two objects A and B. Aether is flowing around them. They cause a "restriction about themselves". A restriction of what?

Altonhare,
the created mass does cause alteration in the local flow about itself, those flows are the no-thing flows.

Why did you switch from "object" to "created mass"? I am not trying to "be anal" and "catch you", I just want to know if:

A) You use them synonymously, i.e. they mean exactly the same thing

B) You decided, in retrospect, "created mass" was correct and object was not

C) You are trying to blend two different definitions into one word in order to cover all your bases and prevent falsifiability, i.e. you're being dishonest.

Only in the last case would I be "catching you", but you have to admit it's a possibility. The former two cases are also possibilities though so my question is not about being an anal jerk but rather understanding why the switch occurred, so that I can understand what's in your head.

[altonhare]

Also Kevin,

The explanation for what we see around us given by Bill and I is something nearly everyone can visualize and understand. Even a blind man can grasp it via tactile means. It explains everything we see around us. Assuming your theory is somehow capable of explaining everything around us (although you, personally, may be incapable of communicating it for some reason) why wouldn't we pick the simply visualizable 3D theory of Gaede and Hare, all else equal?

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Alton,
Thanks for that. I understand the theory/methodology. What is now confusing me is this: how did they decide on the original position, i.e. the position we are 23.5 degrees from?
I understand how it's done 'in the lab' but how or why did they arrive at a particular point on the Earth?

[nick c]

hello GC,

What is now confusing me is this: how did they decide on the original position, i.e. the position we are 23.5 degrees from?

I would think that would be determined by observing the Sun in its' changing position thru the course of the year, that is the seasons, which is of course the resulting effect of the Earth's 23.5 degree axial tilt. The Sun would move north until it reached 23.5 degrees (Tropic of Cancer) above the celestial equator, and then start to move south until it reached 23.5 degrees (Tropic of Capricorn) below the celestial equator, when it would change direction and start moving north and repeating the process. The celestial equator would be the mid way point in the Sun's oscillation, it would also be 90 degrees away from the celestial pole, around which all the fixed stars would circle.
Conceptual knowledge of the heliocentric solar system or axial tilt of the Earth, is not necessary, since they could have just been making observations (measurements) of the Sun's (apparent as viewed from Earth) changing direction at the solstices and its' farthest north/south position. A high degree of accuracy was attainable using simple instruments well within the technologies of many ancient peoples.

The equator is located at zero degrees latitude
[....]
On the equator, the sun is directly overhead at noon on the two equinoxes- near March and September 21. The equator divides the planet into the Northern and Southern Hemispheres.
The Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn each lie at 23.5 degrees latitude. The Tropic of Cancer is located at 23.5° North
[....]
The Tropic of Capricorn lies at 23.5° South of the equator
[...]
The tropics are the two lines where the sun is directly overhead at noon on the two solstices - near June and December 21.

http://geography.about.com/library/misc/blequator.htm
highlights added

nick c

[junglelord]

This is an amazing discovery of how the ancients knew so much. Also how they navigated the world over. The Cross and the Plumbline by Crichton Miller is an engrossing investigation into how ancient sacred symbols were the device of knowledge. Sacred Geometry again comes to light, not as some "new age" fluffy thingy, but as a important concept in how the ancients not only knew so much, but how they derived their knowledge....it was Sacred Geometry.



The Cross and the Plumbline

[nick c]

The ancient Egyptians used a tool called the merkhet, "the instrument of knowing," for timekeeping and alignment of buildings with the cardinal points.

merkhet1.jpg (6.76 KiB) Viewed 13138 times

The 'merkhet', the oldest known astronomical tool, was an Egyptian development of around 600 B.C. A pair of merkhets were used to establish a north-south line by lining them up with the Pole Star. They could then be used to mark off nighttime hours by determining when certain other stars crossed the meridian. The Merkhet, known as the "instrument of knowing" was a sighting tool made from the central rib of a palm leaf and was similar in function to an astrolobe. The merkhet was used for aligning the foundations of the pyramids and sun temples with the cardinal points, and was usually correct to within less than half a degree.
http://www.crystalinks.com/clocks.html

nick c

[altonhare]

Hi Alton,
Thanks for that. I understand the theory/methodology. What is now confusing me is this: how did they decide on the original position, i.e. the position we are 23.5 degrees from?
I understand how it's done 'in the lab' but how or why did they arrive at a particular point on the Earth?

I thought I covered the "particular point" with my pendulum explanation. They noticed that the pendulums swing rate increases maximally in one direction (north/south) and increases not at all in another direction (east/west). Taking swing rate measurements at three locations and assuming a spherical surface tells them the location at which the swing rate will be a maximum (equal to the earth's rotational rate), the "north pole". An identical location can be determined called the "south pole". A straight line through the two locations would be the earth's axis.

Were you talking about another "particular point"?

With regards to the "original position", this is essentially the sun's axis, so your question is asking how they knew how the sun's axis is oriented relative to the earth's axis. I covered this in my original post I believe:

Now let's try something more interesting. Every day mark where the tip of the stick's shadow falls at noon (half a solar day after sunrise, called "clock noon", not when the shadow is shortest, called "local noon"). Each day's mark will fall in a different spot and, after 365 days, you will have a figure 8 pattern. A clever person or people will conclude that the earth is tilted towards the sun, this is what gives rise to the figure 8 that emerges as the sun migrates back and forth across the celestial equator. Additionally, a scientific society will conclude that earth's orbit is not perfectly circular. Because the earth's rotation remains rock-steady but the orbital velocity of the earth increases as we approach the sun and decreases as we recede from it, the sun doesn't always reach its highest point in the sky at exactly clock noon every day. The sun gets to its highest point as much as 14 minutes late on one day and 16 minutes early on another. Four days a year local noon is equal to clock noon, corresponding to the top, bottom, and the middle crossing of the figure 8. These days fall, in our modern calendar, on April 15, June 14, September 2, and December 25th.

What nick said is also pertinent. I could go through the math behind this but I don't wanna unless you don't believe it can be done, nobody appreciated my math last time .

Essentially the width of the 0's in the figure 8 pattern are indicative of the quantity which the earth is tilted.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Nick and Alton,
Thanks, I think I've finally got it.

[mague]

The ancient Egyptians used a tool called the merkhet, "the instrument of knowing," for timekeeping and alignment of buildings with the cardinal points.

merkhet1.jpg

The 'merkhet', the oldest known astronomical tool, was an Egyptian development of around 600 B.C. A pair of merkhets were used to establish a north-south line by lining them up with the Pole Star.

merkhetrelief.jpg

nick c

The problem is, they havent build anthing worth mentioning since 600 B.C.