Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby bboyer » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:01 pm

David Talbott wrote:<snip>

Wherever the purely mythological content demands reverence, it is an obstacle.

A thought to consider. Is it possible that the greatest spiritual teachers, though working within cultural habits and traditions that did indeed trace to the foundations of myth, actually freed themselves from the historic inertia of myth? In their own terms, the myths typically presented themselves as divine--the word of God, or a god, speaking to them. Inherent in this was the image of an angry man in the sky, an inescapable mythical character that none of us would be pleased to call "dad."

To me, it is awe-inspiring to realize that the core teachings of Jesus or the Buddha (however one might view historical origins or contexts) are virtually free from mythology. And I'd say the same thing about the most impressive teachers in the world today. It's a somewhat arbitrary choice, but consider the Dalai Lama. This visionary and teacher of simple virtues is neither a product of mythology nor a missionary for mythology. The same could be said of many others of extraordinary insight around the world, all of whom, following their own paths, came to remarkably similar views. And it is not unreasonable to see their teachings as the purest of human insights, entirely liberated from mythology.

David Talbott


I can't thank you enough for this succinct translation into words related to one of my own more profound personal recognitions (fognitions :) ). Of course, it required that I walk the path through the mystifying tangle of myth and symbols to reach that point of stillness that resulted in ... nay, allowed... the realization.

Namaste, and merci bien M. Dave
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby bboyer » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:39 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:<snip>

.... (I have picked up Ariadne's thread; I have heard the song of the Siren) but I have been blundering about for several decades.

<snip>



Ditto. Particularly the blundering aspect. :lol:

Highest regards,
bryan (aka arc-us)
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:03 am

David.

Wherever the purely mythological content demands reverence, it is an obstacle.

If it demands anything, it is respect. Iagree that there is no no need for reverence.

Inherent in this was the image of an angry man in the sky, an inescapable mythical character that none of us would be pleased to call "dad."


That is only the Abrahamic concept of god which is in any case a conflation of several aspects or levels of the divine. Some of the Gnostic groups were scathing about this labelling Him as an incompetent psychopath. (I'm reminded of Michael Palin in one of the Python films: 'Oh Lord, smite them, in thy mercy'.)
In some traditions/versions of the Ancient Wisdom what we (generally speaking) call 'god' is part of Creation and doesn't appear until about the 3rd step.
The Egyptians used the word neter for what we moderns call a god.

To me, it is awe-inspiring to realize that the core teachings of Jesus or the Buddha (however one might view historical origins or contexts) are virtually free from mythology

The core teachings of Jesus (himself a mythological figure -the is no historical record of such a person (outside of much later xtian writings). Christ = christos - annointed one, or Enlightened one = a buddha. The core teachings are those of the Ancient Wisdom. JC used parables (analogy). In the Gospel of Mark, for example, he explicitly tells the disciples that for the masses faith is enough and he will teach them in parables. But to the disciples he will give the key to the parable and teach them the true or inner meaning.
This is how the Ancient Wisdom have been handed down throughout history. That is what the, for example, Greek Mystery traditions were about (Eleusinian, Orphic, etc). These institutions (closed down by the xtians) were also known as Mystery Schools - knowledge was taught in them. They were not cults - certainly not in the modern sense of the word. Thales, Pythagoras and Plato, to name but three, were all initiated into the Greek mysteries and they all later went to study in the Egyptian mysteries. Socrates, according to my sources, was invited to be intitiated into one of the Greek schools but declined because one of the rules was that there were some some things which couldn't be revealed to the masses. Socrates believed that knowledge should be free and freely available to everyone. (This is just one of the reasons why he is my all time personal hero).
If you check out the etymology of the word myth you will find it has little to do with the content of a story, eg. it is not necessarily about matters divine. It is more to do with a type of literary format, if you will.
The Dalai Lama's teachings do not originate with the Dalai Lama (as I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge). What he is teaching is his interpretation of a body of recieved knowledge.
Given that there is only the Eternal Now then no 'human' has or will ever come up with anything original. All ideas, thoughts etc, have existed in potentio since the moment of creation. All we do is 'remember' (you have to go 'online' to access the data - or to stretch the analogy to breaking point, we down here are using 'dial-up' (brain) when with a bit of patience and practice, we can use (wireless) broadband (mind) and connect to the UWW (Universe Wide Web)).
I expect that arc-us will appreciate that last bit more than you David. ;))

In the words of U.G. Krishnamurti: 'you are just the thought of a thought'.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:46 pm

Ditto. Particularly the blundering aspect. :lol:


Don't know about you but I found the blundering the easier part.

Speaking of Sirens, are you familiar with 'Song To The Siren' by Tim Buckley? He did two versions, one acoustic where he sings like a young white guy (which he was) and one where he sings like an older black guy (that's the one to listen to). This Mortal Coil and the Cocteau Twins also do passable versions. Here's the lyric:

Song To The Siren
(Tim Buckley)

Long afloat on shipless oceans
I did all my best to smile
'Til your singing eyes and fingers
Drew me loving to your isle
And you sang:
"Sail to me
Sail to me
Let me enfold you.
Here I am
Here I am
Waiting to hold you".

Did I dream you dreamed about me?
Were you hare when I was fox?
Now my foolish boat is leaning
Broken lovelorn on your rocks,
For you sing: "Touch me not, touch me not, come back tomorrow":
O my heart, O my heart shies from the sorrow"

I am puzzled as the newborn child
I am troubled as the tide:
Should I stand amid the breakers?
Or should I lie with Death my bride?
Hear me sing: "Swim to me, Swim to me, Let me enfold you.
Here I am, Here I am, Waiting to hold you".

It's my current 'anthem' for when I struggle against the current. He certainly knew his Homer and his symbolism. Do you know what it was that the Sirens offered? It wasn't wine, women and song or sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll.
It was wisdom.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby bboyer » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
Ditto. Particularly the blundering aspect. :lol:


Don't know about you but I found the blundering the easier part.

<snip>
It's my current 'anthem' for when I struggle against the current. He certainly knew his Homer and his symbolism. Do you know what it was that the Sirens offered? It wasn't wine, women and song or sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll.
It was wisdom.


Well, blundering comes fairly natural for me. :roll:

No, I was not aware of the song. I enjoyed the lyrics, thank you. And I certainly do understand your closing remarks about struggling against the current and the offer of wisdom. Contemplating a bit on it, I would add that perhaps the Siren (the singularity not being lost on you? 8-) ) has the potentiality of introducing one to the ... wellspring ... from which wisdom itself flows. Perhaps a willingness to suspend the chase for a moment ("when you were hare and I was fox"), maybe the hare will come willingly to the fox, should the fox relax his natural seeking bent? I like that, "Swim to me, Swim to me, Let me enfold you. Here I am, Here I am, Waiting to hold you." Oh, what deception our minds could make of that. Fatal Attraction! :lol: Reminds me of the line from the flick, Jacob's Ladder:

Louie wrote:"(Meister) Eckhart saw hell, too. You know what he said? He said the only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life ... your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you he said. They're freeing your soul. So the way he sees it, if you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth. It's just a matter of how you look at it, that's all."

Louie
Jacob's Ladder motion picture
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:28 am

Hi arc-us
Glad you enjoyed the song and I enjoyed your comments upon it.
Re Jacob's Ladder: I watched it only a few months ago on the recommendation of a friend. I enjoyed the film and the one scene which has stuck in my mind is the very one you quote in your post. I found the oncept intriguing.

It's funny how since I started upon this path, various tunes in my collection can be seen in a new light.
Just a few:
Dory Previn Mythical Kings and Iguanas
Steve Earle The Seeker
Loudon Wainwright III Between
The Who The Seeker
Joni Mitchell Circle Game

Thanks again for your posts, they're always appreciated.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby bboyer » Mon May 26, 2008 6:58 am

I really liked this response from kovil, borrowed from here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=607&start=45#p6104 Re: what is charge?

kovil wrote:What is charge?
I answer with a question - What is Energy?

Charge is a potential energy that is frustrated by not reaching equilibrium or equalization.
Therefore Charge is Frustration, and the Universe is made of frustration
,

when it rains the water is trying to get to the center of the earth, but the rocks are in the way,
the rocks are also trying to get to the center of the earth, but the metallic core is in the way,
the earth is trying to get to the center of the sun, but with little inter solar system resistance it keeps orbiting,
and the sun is trying to get to the center of the galaxy, etc.
But that's gravitational frustration.

Energy frustration is opposite electric charges separated by a distance beyond what they can jump to equalize.

Energy frustration is exhibited by Charge, the potential energy of attraction or repulsion.
We use the analogy of charge existing within a field to describe how charge behaves and acts.
Physics describes very well how charges behave and act, yet what charge truly is remains a subject of debate over descriptions.


In a philosophical description Charge is seeking a state of undividness with its opposite charge, that of charge equalization.

In a mathematical description of Charge it is an amplitude away from zero that maintains itself over time.


In a Dobsonian cosmological description Charge is the manifestation of the Infinite (Energy) within the Undivided (the Space field) and exhibiting the principle of undividedness (the attraction of gravity, and the attraction between opposite electrical charges) amongst itself (the opposite charges).

How we describe Charge and Energy will continue to find new metaphors of description, the mathematics will remain the same for how charge and energy behave in reality, but what charge and energy are at their primary level of manifestation in existence will keep being a puzzle directly related to our perception methods and means.


One would need to review the 1st page of this thread I think to appreciate the context within which I, personally, grasp kovil's statement tho' he may not himself contextually relate it in the same way. "The Frustrated Universe." ;) I like that, for reasons which will probably be obscure to many, particularly if they were to get hung up on the more narrowly defined sense of the concept of frustration as commonly used. Anyways, thanks kovil for your insight.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby StefanR » Mon May 26, 2008 7:25 am

Therefore Charge is Frustration, and the Universe is made of frustration,


Sounds a little like Empedokles.
Who says in a by me badly cropped way that originally the four elements where bounded by Love in a Sphere.
But Hate drove them apart, thereby creating the sky, the sun and the stars, the sea and the earth. But Love was not set down and gathered again a part of the spreaded elements, and by that formed life. And when the living beings had some time of existence, Hate again divided the elements and caused death. In this cycle of life and death the elements for ever remained the same. And when the individual man putted trust in Hate, he would be punished by banishment out of the house of the gods and had to live a long series of lives. Only when (re)turning again to Love, he would also be able to return to the house of the gods.


"The Frustrated Universe."


Maybe something like ?? ;) :
The Unobstructed Universe
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon May 26, 2008 7:39 am

StefanR wrote
Sounds a little like Empedokles.


That's exactly what I thought as I read it.
It's a yin-yang thang.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Mon May 26, 2008 10:42 pm

In reference to the Sirens, there's a link that may be helpful when considering what the ancient sky looked like:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/porph ... lation.htm

It's a translation of the Greek, Porphyry on the Thirteenth Book of the Odyssey.

"For Saturn, and his sphere, are the first of the orbs that move contrary to the course of Coelum or the heavens. Certain powers, however, descend both from Heaven (or the inerratic sphere) and the planets. But Saturn receives the powers of Heaven and Jupiter the powers of Saturn."
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue May 27, 2008 10:50 am

soulsurvivor wrote:In reference to the Sirens, there's a link that may be helpful when considering what the ancient sky looked like:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/porph ... lation.htm

It's a translation of the Greek, Porphyry on the Thirteenth Book of the Odyssey.

"For Saturn, and his sphere, are the first of the orbs that move contrary to the course of Coelum or the heavens. Certain powers, however, descend both from Heaven (or the inerratic sphere) and the planets. But Saturn receives the powers of Heaven and Jupiter the powers of Saturn."


Hello Soulsurvivor,
Thanks for the link - an old favourite of mine.
Taylor's footnote gives an alternate interpretation:
(
10) Porphyry, though he excelled in philosophical, was deficient in theological knowledge; of which what he now says of the castrations of Saturn and Heaven is a remarkable instance. For ancient theologists, by things preternatural, adumbrated the transcendent nature of the Gods; by such as are irrational, a power more divine than all reason; and by things apparently base, incorporeal beauty. Hence in the fabulous narrations to which Porphyry now alludes, the genital parts must be considered as symbols of prolific power; and the castration of these parts as signifying the progression of this power into a subject order. So that the fable means that the prolific powers of Saturn are called forth into progression by Jupiter, and those of Heaven by Saturn; Jupiter being inferior to Saturn, and Saturn to Heaven.—See the "Apology for the Fables of Homer" in Vol. I. of my translation of Plato.


I agree with Taylor that the 'genital parts must be considered as symbols of prolific power', however, the final sentence (in purple) is not clearly written and seems somewhat at odds with that preceding it. I do not understand how something which has been castrated can 'call forth' anything. My understanding of this, gleaned from various other sources, is that the castration of Heaven (Ouranus) by Saturn means the power is now with the latter. Likewise Saturn's castration by Jupiter sees the power handed to Jupiter.
To my way of seeing things, these represent the change of ages or aeons. Ouranus was the Golden Age, Cronos the Silver and Zeus the Bronze. We are now in the Iron Age with no successor to Zeus. This accords pretty well with the Vedic Yugas in that we have moved further away from direct intercourse with heaven.

And yes, I know Dave Talbot et al consider the Golden Age to be that of Saturn, and yes, I know that some ancient writers mention this too.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Wed May 28, 2008 9:53 am

"castrated" as in the two (male and female) become one within the same body.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed May 28, 2008 11:16 am

soulsurvivor wrote:"castrated" as in the two (male and female) become one within the same body.


Sorry, you've lost me there. Which male and female in which same body?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby junglelord » Wed May 28, 2008 3:21 pm

Thats a Hermaphrodite....
:lol: :lol:
did I spell that right?
:?
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: Recovered: The Electricity of Life - a personal view

Unread postby StefanR » Wed May 28, 2008 4:01 pm

I was thinking more of a eunuch. ;)

Don't go asking me for spelling, I'm teribel.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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