Physics of the Saturnian Theory

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Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby mharratsc » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:24 pm

I just got through reading Mr. Talbott's [url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2238]Forensics of Comparative Mythology[/url2] (excellent reading), and it occurred to me that- whereas I do understand the basics of the physics described for the evolution of the Saturnian theory- I've never really heard it expounded upon.

Topics like:

1. Would Saturn have 'given birth' to Venus when it was still a star, or did it occur while it was a gas giant? Charge equalization events were still being seen in recorded human history- I presume that modern man arrived after Venus' birth or else we'd have seen entries of the event in the annals of myth.

2. Was the alignment relative to Saturn indicative of planetary ages? Would Earth be the oldest of the siblings then? Why the huge disparity between the compositions of the three planets? Why does 'old' Earth have such a diverse composition, and yet 'younger' Mars looks like an ancient wasteland?

3. What was the geometry of the 'capture event'? Given 'the eternal purple twilight of day' myth- was Earth forcibly removed from Saturn's stellar atmosphere? Did it immediately land at the orbital radius we currently occupy, giving us enough heat for life to continue without major adaptation?

Just wondering if any of this stuff had been covered somewhere already, and if so- where could I find it?

Mike H.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby moses » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:08 pm

Might I suggest that we start a "Saturn System" section of the forum.
Seems the "mad ideas" keeps people from posting in the "new ideas"
section and the speculation involved in this subject makes it undesirable
for the other sections.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby davesmith_au » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:20 pm

Mike I know it's difficult to supress all the natural questions which first arise when giving thought to the Saturn theory, but on the face of it it appears such a preposterous proposition that it needs careful explaining to be given any consideration at all.

Unfortunately every time we've entertained forum discussion of the theory, others have quickly jumped in with their "superior understanding" or a "better theory" of their own, which quickly denegrates proper discussion of the theory concerned.

I would ask for patience - which I know we've asked for plenty of times before - as Dave Talbott is very close to having finished the first segment of Symbols of an Alien Sky. This has been developed from the rough-cut versions posted to You-Tube with changes according to the feedback he has received.

The questions you ask may or may not even be answered to any degree yet, and until people understand the full nature of the work, open discussion of those sorts of questions leads quickly into speculation which is far removed from any scientific or forensic methodology, and thus the impact or implications of the theory are lost amongst the flood of "my theory is ... " which inevitably follows.

For those who have a genuine interest in knowing more about the theory, first wait until the Symbols (part 1) is published, and then perhaps some properly constrained discussion may be entertained. And then also people will be able to see why the Saturn theory is linked so explicitly with Electric Universe theory.

Cheers, Dave.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby StevenJay » Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:47 am

davesmith_au wrote:For those who have a genuine interest in knowing more about the theory, first wait until the Symbols (part 1) is published, and then perhaps some properly constrained discussion may be entertained. And then also people will be able to see why the Saturn theory is linked so explicitly with Electric Universe theory.

A few years ago, I purchased the Remembering the End of the World DVD, not realizing until after the fact that it was made before the electric universe connection had been made. At first, I was a bit put off by that, but I quickly got over it. I figured, ah well, it's a tidbit of financial support for, what I consider to be, a good cause (not too many of those around these days). The point is, I was immediately enthralled by the theory being presented and, having already plunged headlong into the concepts of EU and PC in general, I easily made the connection between David's ST and the EU.

I agree with others here that a Saturn Theory board should eventually be made available with the same guidelines that are required of most of the other boards. Meaning that any postings that deviate from those guidelines simply get moved to the NIAMI board (or simply axed when appropriate). Even though there's already quite a bit of info on the subject available, a LOT of questions still arise (many of which will undoubtedly remain permanently in the domain of educated conjecture). So I, for one, am really looking forward to the release of part one and its discussion! :)
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby moses » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:59 pm

Let's say that Jno Cook can't resist a discussion of the Saturn System
and joins the forum and posts to the Saturn Theory board. Now he has
developed a theory that in many or most ways differs from Dave T's
theory. Does his postings get put on the NIMI section or ejected ?
Do planet X people get similar treatment ? After all, there is a
connection between planet X and the Saturn System. Just exactly what
are we afraid of in an uncensored discussion ? The Saturn System goes
to the heart of all religions, and will cause pain to many people.
To say that our father in heaven means Saturn in the sky in olden days
is sure to upset people. Does this mean we have to pussy-foot around ?
No pain - no gain !
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:11 pm

Mike:
Physics of the Saturnian Theory
I just got through reading Mr. Talbott's Forensics of Comparative Mythology (excellent reading), and it occurred to me that- whereas I do understand the basics of the physics described for the evolution of the Saturnian theory- I've never really heard it expounded upon.

Topics like:
1. Would Saturn have 'given birth' to Venus when it was still a star, or did it occur while it was a gas giant? Charge equalization events were still being seen in recorded human history- I presume that modern man arrived after Venus' birth or else we'd have seen entries of the event in the annals of myth.
2. Was the alignment relative to Saturn indicative of planetary ages? Would Earth be the oldest of the siblings then? Why the huge disparity between the compositions of the three planets? Why does 'old' Earth have such a diverse composition, and yet 'younger' Mars looks like an ancient wasteland?
3. What was the geometry of the 'capture event'? Given 'the eternal purple twilight of day' myth- was Earth forcibly removed from Saturn's stellar atmosphere? Did it immediately land at the orbital radius we currently occupy, giving us enough heat for life to continue without major adaptation?

* Velikovsky was first, I think, to suggest that Venus was "born" within the last few thousand years from one of the gas giants. He felt that myths do suggest that humans witnessed its birth. He thought it was ejected from Jupiter, while the Thunderbolts team members seem largely to consider that it was ejected either from Saturn, or it's a toss-up between any of the gas giants, or that it simply became visible during the Saturn Age.
* I haven't heard anyone suggest that the alignment of the planets under Saturn during the Saturn Age, with Venus close to Saturn, Mars next and Earth farthest away, all in a line under the south pole of Saturn, was in order of age. So the ages of Mars and Earth aren't clear, except that they're obviously considerably over 5,000 years old. Cardona has said that humans witnessed flareups of Saturn as far back as 20,000 years at least. The last flareup, maybe 5,000 years ago, saw Saturn transition from a brown dwarf star to a gas giant in the Solar System. The atmospheres of Earth and Mars appear to be under 50,000 years old, based on the abundance of radioactive nitrogen at Mars and the abundance of helium in Earth's atmosphere. It's interesting that today's TPOD acknowledges that Mercury may be only ten thousand years old or even less, based on the fact that it still has a thin atmosphere.
* I think Cardona's or Talbott's idea is that the last flareup of Saturn occurred when Saturn reached the orbit of the asteroid belt. At that point the Earth may have flipped over, putting Jupiter on Saturn's throne [from an Earthly perspective], and within a few centuries the system broke up completely. Jupiter and Saturn would then have moved out to more distant orbits, while the small planets moved to inner orbits. Earth would then have gone through a cooling period on its way from the protective environment of Saturn at the orbit of the asteroid belt on its way to the present orbit. This info comes mostly from the magazine, Kronos, published in the late 70s through early 80s and other sources. One good source is http://kronia.com/thoth.html .
* You can also get a lot of tidbits of info from Thornhill's site, http://holoscience.com
& http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp& ... 7557fadcb8
etc.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby StevenJay » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:34 am

moses wrote:Let's say that Jno Cook can't resist a discussion of the Saturn System and joins the forum and posts to the Saturn Theory board. Now he has
developed a theory that in many or most ways differs from Dave T's theory. Does his postings get put on the NIMI section or ejected ?

I would think that it would depend on the methodology used to arrive at said theory. If it's mostly opinion-based, or arrived at via a tiny sampling of "evidence" gleened from a very limited investigation, then, in a word, "Yes." The internet is literally awash with material authored by folks who think "research" involves nothing more than a few Google searches and that's it. :roll:

moses wrote: Just exactly what are we afraid of in an uncensored discussion ?

Well, as DS pointed out:
on the face of it [the Saturn Theory] appears such a preposterous proposition that it needs careful explaining to be given any consideration at all.

So, as I see it, it comes down to credibility and focus. If someone joined this forum for the express purpose of expounding on the merits of mainstream gravity-centric cosmology while, at the same time, deriding the EU model, that person and his input would be subject to the very same fate.

I'm a pretty opinionated guy, as many of my posts here clearly illustrate. But even I can appreciate the value of admin's position on this. And I'm not just saying that because I happen to give the ST a lot of credence. This is one of the most open, honest and intelligent forums I've ever experienced, which I find to be very refreshing. I, for one, would like to see it remain that way.

Also, having one's material moved to the NIAMI board isn't meant as some sort of punishment. It's merely a means of keeping other boards and threads on track and focused.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby moses » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:34 pm

So, as I see it, it comes down to credibility and focus. If someone joined this forum for the express purpose of expounding on the merits of mainstream gravity-centric cosmology while, at the same time, deriding the EU model, that person and his input would be subject to the very same fate.
StevenJay

Why would a Saturn System section be dedicated to newcomers to the idea ?
Just make a newbies subsection. The great depth of the implications of the
Saturn System needs consideration. And then there is the nailing down of
the detail of the configuration and the interactions of the planets in this
configuration. It is painful stuff and bound to produce conflict, but way
too important to let such matters control the expression and consideration
of all things involved in the Saturn System.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby mharratsc » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:37 pm

Wowzers- didn't realize I'd open up such a can of worms here! :shock:

I can understand literally everyone's perspectives posted here, and I'll certainly defer to wiser heads in the matter about which direction to take the whole line of questioning.

I guess I was just sort of anticipating some general musings on the general physics of how everything could've broken up and realigned and whatnot, I dunno... :\

Regardless, I appreciate the candor of the replies ('specially Dave) and I'll do my best to hold my curiousity while answers are sorted out! ;)

Mike H.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:50 am

davesmith_au wrote:Mike I know it's difficult to supress all the natural questions which first arise when giving thought to the Saturn theory, but on the face of it it appears such a preposterous proposition that it needs careful explaining to be given any consideration at all.

Unfortunately every time we've entertained forum discussion of the theory, others have quickly jumped in with their "superior understanding" or a "better theory" of their own, which quickly denegrates proper discussion of the theory concerned.

I would ask for patience - which I know we've asked for plenty of times before - as Dave Talbott is very close to having finished the first segment of Symbols of an Alien Sky. This has been developed from the rough-cut versions posted to You-Tube with changes according to the feedback he has received.

The questions you ask may or may not even be answered to any degree yet, and until people understand the full nature of the work, open discussion of those sorts of questions leads quickly into speculation which is far removed from any scientific or forensic methodology, and thus the impact or implications of the theory are lost amongst the flood of "my theory is ... " which inevitably follows.

For those who have a genuine interest in knowing more about the theory, first wait until the Symbols (part 1) is published, and then perhaps some properly constrained discussion may be entertained. And then also people will be able to see why the Saturn theory is linked so explicitly with Electric Universe theory.

Cheers, Dave.


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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:26 pm

* Mike, I responded to all 3 of your initial questions. Aren't my answers of any interest?
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby nick c » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:20 pm

hi Mike,
Just wondering if any of this stuff had been covered somewhere already, and if so- where could I find it?


For starters and easy on line access try:
[url2=http://www.kronia.com/thoth.html]Thoth Newsletter[/url2].
There is wealth of information on the Saturn theory and its' intracacies. Especially, Talbott's series', "Saturn Theory, Overview" and "Velikovsky's Comet Venus" as well as numerous other articles.

Otherwise in published material, there is Cardonna's God Star and Flare Star.
Numerous articles in the journals Aeon and Kronos.

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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby allynh » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:08 pm

I just saw this on BBC World News America.

New ring around Saturn. 8m miles in diameter and 3m miles wide, only visible in the infrared.

How well do we know the planets in our galaxy? Saturn is the one with the mysterious and rather beautiful rings.

But today astronomers announced that they have found a huge new ring around the planet, eight million miles from Saturn, a ring so large that it could fit one billion planet earth's inside it.

If it's so huge, how could we have missed it for so long?


New ring detected around Saturn
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/w ... 296066.stm

I captured some of the images just in case the video goes away over time.

01.jpg
The new ring.


02.jpg
How it would look if visible.


03.jpg
The moon that moves through the ring, Iapetus, dark on one side, light on the other.


04.jpg
Scale of the ring to Saturn.


This is fun stuff. The EU guys need to look at this and see what's going on before they do the video release of "Symbols of an Alien Sky." You've got a major ring that is in "dark mode" that may have been lit up like crazy during the Saturn Event.

Wow!

The AP has a video on Youtube as well.

NASA Discovers Giant Ring Around Saturn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LbL0QjxdU

This is from the AP on Yahoo.

NASA telescope discovers giant ring around Saturn

Wed Oct 7, 11:47 am ET

PASADENA, Calif. – The Spitzer Space Telescope has discovered the biggest but never-before-seen ring around the planet Saturn, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory announced late Tuesday.

The thin array of ice and dust particles lies at the far reaches of the Saturnian system and its orbit is tilted 27 degrees from the planet's main ring plane, the laboratory said.

JPL spokeswoman Whitney Clavin said the ring is very diffuse and doesn't reflect much visible light but the infrared Spitzer telescope was able to detect it.

Although the ring dust is very cold — minus 316 degrees Fahrenheit — it shines with thermal radiation.

No one had looked at its location with an infrared instrument until now, Clavin said.

The bulk of the ring material starts about 3.7 million miles from the planet and extends outward about another 7.4 million miles.

The newly found ring is so huge it would take 1 billion Earths to fill it, JPL said.

Before the discovery Saturn was known to have seven main rings named A through E and several faint unnamed rings.

A paper on the discovery was to be published online Wednesday by the journal Nature.

"This is one supersized ring," said one of the authors, Anne Verbiscer, an astronomer at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. Her co-authors are Douglas Hamilton of the University of Maryland, College Park, and Michael Skrutskie, also of the University of Virginia.

Saturn's moon Phoebe orbits within the ring and is believed to be the source of the material.

The ring also may answer the riddle of another moon, Iapetus, which has a bright side and a very dark side.

The ring circles in the same direction as Phoebe, while Iapetus, the other rings and most of Saturn's other moons go the opposite way. Scientists think material from the outer ring moves inward and slams into Iapetus.

"Astronomers have long suspected that there is a connection between Saturn's outer moon Phoebe and the dark material on Iapetus," said Hamilton. "This new ring provides convincing evidence of that relationship."

The Spitzer mission, launched in 2003, is managed by JPL in Pasadena. Spitzer is 66 million miles from Earth in orbit around the sun.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby bboyer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:06 pm

allynh wrote:
02.jpg

Click image for larger view


Guess it could be the vestige of what is being termed in EU Saturn Theory as Proto-Saturn. Interesting speculation anyways.
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Re: Physics of the Saturnian Theory

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:38 am

Allyn:
You've got a major ring that is in "dark mode" that may have been lit up like crazy during the Saturn Event.

* The last EU theory I heard on Saturn's rings are that the rings that were visible around Saturn in the Golden Age were not the same rings that are visible today. I don't know at what point they think Saturn acquired its present rings, but I suppose they think it was during or after the breakup of the Saturn system.
* I saw on one of the satellite channels lately that the outer rings are mostly pure ice, while the inner rings are mostly dust and rocks. I think Enceladus is spewing ice into the outer rings right now. So the inner rings may have been captured during the breakup. I guess Io spews some kind of stuff, maybe sulphur, into Jupiter's ring. Uranus has rings too, from its moon geysers I think.
* One TPOD http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch ... erings.htm showed that Saturn's and Uranus' rings are very similar.
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