The Standard Model

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JaJa
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The Standard Model

Post by JaJa » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:45 am

Hi

I originally asked Nereid three questions in another thread and it was suggested I begin another thread. I hope this is the right forum.

I recently began a philosophy assignment which was constructed around three basic questions.

Question 1 was based on an article I read at Wikipedia less than two months ago here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

I quoted and referenced the article in which Sir Roger Penrose apparently said;
"Time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy. The singularity didn’t appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy – nothing"
However this quote from Penrose has since been removed and replaced with this;
In physics, the word nothing is not used in any technical sense either. A region of space is called a vacuum if it does not contain any matter, though it can contain physical fields. In fact, it is practically impossible to construct a region of space that contains no matter or fields, since gravity cannot be blocked and all objects at a non-zero temperature radiate electromagnetically. However, even if such a region existed, it could still not be referred to as "nothing", since it has properties and a measurable existence as part of the quantum-mechanical vacuum.
Just out of curiosity... how can a vacuum contain no matter and yet contain physical fields - isn't matter physical?

Anyway... my first question to Nereid was based on what I had quoted and referenced Penrose as saying for a university project;
What is nothing and has it ever been observed or measured either directly or indirectly?
My second;
Why is Time defined as a dimension when it seems to be a man-made concept used to measure change brought about by Motion. Without Motion - how could I define time?
And my third question relates to the "space" between atoms.
Is it empty in the literal sense?
Thanx

JJ
Omnia in numeris sita sunt

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JaJa
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by JaJa » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:45 pm

In relation to question (1) of this thread the closest I can get to unearthing the origin of my alleged Penrose quote on a Wikipedia page that claimed "nothing" existed before the singularity, the sources listed below are used on a number of websites which also used the quote in its entirety;

Steven W. Hawking, George F.R. Ellis, "The Cosmic Black-Body Radiation and the Existence of Singularities in our Universe," Astrophysical Journal, 152, (1968) pp. 25-36.

Steven W. Hawking, Roger Penrose, "The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology," Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, series A, 314 (1970) pp. 529-548.

Mark Eastman, Chuck Missler, The Creator: Beyond Time and Space, (1996) p. 11.

In an attempt to understand Penrose-Hawking reasoning and to see if they or anyone else was "coining" the term "nothing" in an attempt to explain a prior state of existence I looked at the following Wiki page;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

But alas I came across this...
The two most important types of spacetime singularities are curvature singularities and conical singularities. Singularities can also be divided according to whether they are covered by an event horizon or not (naked singularities). According to general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity.
So in terms of the Big Bang singularity... was it curvature or conical and was it covered by an event horizon or was it naked?

On another note (and i know this challenges Einstein - gulps) I have a problem with Space being combined with Time to define a dimension. In my second question I ask how does one define Time if Motion is absent. By lack of Motion I don't mean standing still on the planet because technically speaking that's not standing still, I mean a complete cessation of Motion.

JJ
Omnia in numeris sita sunt

Goldminer
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by Goldminer » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:08 pm

Hi, JJ:

You already know that absolute kelvin is pretty much the end of internal motion. These folks who "know" there was a Big Bang tickle me, like somehow they were there! I am just as adamant about no Big Bang, Black Holes, Dark Matter, Dark energy, going real fast to "travel backwards/forwards in time," etc. in opposition to the "true believer. If you present them with a little logic you become the object of a jihad.

Thinking of empty space is helpful for uncluttering one's thoughts on various propositions to clarify the logic involved as one steps through a situation. For example Lane Davis does a fine job of explaining a feared topic in this article: http://www.wbabin.net/ntham/davis.pdf. Maybe even goes where none have entered!

I think philosophizing all day on nothing pretty much returns nothing.
So in terms of the Big Bang singularity... was it curvature or conical and was it covered by an event horizon or was it naked?
Fancy words backed by obscure symbols. We're all impressed!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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JaJa
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by JaJa » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:41 am

Hi Goldminer;
You already know that absolute kelvin is pretty much the end of internal motion
I was talking in terms of atomic vibration... if an atom was brought to a complete standstill or frozen in place wouldn't that be worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize - it would certainly cause uncertainty for Heisenbergs supporters? My point about Motion is that it doesn't appear to have a beginning...
I think philosophizing all day on nothing pretty much returns nothing.
I know my questions seem futile...
Fancy words backed by obscure symbols. We're all impressed!
Wikipedia's words not mine :roll:

JJ
Omnia in numeris sita sunt

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Solar
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by Solar » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:40 pm

JaJa wrote:Hi Goldminer;
You already know that absolute kelvin is pretty much the end of internal motion
I was talking in terms of atomic vibration... if an atom was brought to a complete standstill or frozen in place wouldn't that be worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize - it would certainly cause uncertainty for Heisenbergs supporters? My point about Motion is that it doesn't appear to have a beginning...
I think philosophizing all day on nothing pretty much returns nothing.
I know my questions seem futile...

JJ
Well, there is no “vacuum.” To me, the confusion arises because one cannot say, refer to, or call, a region of space a “vacuum” if it contains and/or is composed of something. A “vacuum” is supposed to be an absence of “matter.” It is said that quantum-mechanical “virtual particles” are popping in and out of existence in said “vacuum” which directly contradicts the term. The author cites trying to construct one however the inability to shield gravity and the fact that absolute zero has not been achieved means that no matter how much “matter” one thinks they can exclude something still resides producing “latent heat.”

Whatever the nature, or phase, of the “matter” that does exist and/or comprises the remaining “space” allows for the presence (or production) of supposed “virtual particles” – said state, phase, or condition cannot be called a “vacuum” as something exist in order to produce said “virtual particles” and persist in radiating “latent heat.”

This, the nature of “space”, can get to be a heady topic but there are some things to consider with regard to these quandaries. For example:
The Nature of “Space”
James C. Maxwell understood the necessity of not having a ‘something comes from nothing.’ To that end he utilized “quaternion” space i.e. the electromagnetic potential field (or ‘field of potential’) which was subsequently assailed, removed - and -towards the rejection of which he said:
"... The invention of the Calculus of Quaternions by Hamilton is a step towards the knowledge of quantities related to space which can only be compared for its importance with the invention of triple coordinates by Descartes. The limited use which has up to the present time been made of Quaternions must be attributed partly to the repugnance of most mature minds to new methods involving the expenditure of thought ..." – Some Quternionic History
Just as certain frequencies have existed all along that can’t be seen with the naked eye; telescopes reveal fascinating activity occurring around stars and galaxies in the radio spectrum with plasma and electricity, electromagnetism, electric fields etc. Is it really that far of a stretch to consider that, as yet, not all of the phases and/or activities of “matter” can be, or have been, detected and/or deduced? Not to me. With Quaternions Maxwell considered “electric potential” (the “capacity” to do work) to be substantive ‘stuff.’ This was rejected (probably because it ascribes a quality to “space” such that “space” can ‘rotate’) just as the Aether was rejected by Einstein; despite the fact that he created his own version of a gravitational “space.”

It could not have been that ‘something sat in nothing’ or that ‘something came from nothing’ as WAMP’s theoretical impetus and vicarious confiscation of the mCBR has taught.
Cosmologically, it is rather obvious that the antigravitational property of 'latent heat' has tremendous implications. The reason why energy simultaneously unfolds Space and Time is due to a very primary property of defined energy states: that aside from secondary superimposition and phase coincidences, they tend to separate themselves from the continuum they compose, as if a minimum repulsion existed between the simplest units of energy. The deeper reason why the envelope of Space and Time does not and will not collapse is found precisely in the 'antigravitic' or 'repulsive' property of 'latent heat'. This is the deeper secret of it - which it has been Aetherometry's task both to unravel and to document. So if we are to address the problems of Space and Time as functions of energy, we must first understand they are functions of that 'latent' energy in massfree form. It is precisely this 'latent' energy in massfree form which, as scientists continue to attempt to cool down an atom in a trap to absolute zero, keeps stubbornly resisting; keeps using that atom as a pick-up antenna for the capture of 'latent heat' which the atom persistently converts into the little bursts of sensible heat it releases and which, for a mass of atoms, impede the researcher from ever being able to bring any atom to absolute zero. There is, in other words, a minimal thermal heat that atoms constantly propagate, vibrating with the waves of 'latent heat' that produce and unfold Space and Time. – Why speak of an aether
JaJa wrote:Why is Time defined as a dimension when it seems to be a man-made concept used to measure change brought about by Motion. Without Motion - how could I define time?
You are correct imho. “Time” is a manmade construct stemming from quantification of the duration of events induced by ceaseless motion. Without motion one could not establish the construct called “Time.” The question is; what is the nature of that which persist in radiating latent heat which *may* be that which is not only in motion; but may also induce motion in more dense objects?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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JaJa
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by JaJa » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:21 am

Solar

Thanx very much for taking the time to offer such an indepth explanation and links :D

Really... really appreciate it.

JJ
Omnia in numeris sita sunt

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klypp
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by klypp » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:50 am

Jaja, as you've noticed, Wikipedia is always changing - most of the time from bad to worse. So I take the definition of a singularity from a dictionary
A point of infinite density and infinitesimal volume, at which space and time become infinitely distorted according to the theory of General Relativity. According to the big bang theory, a gravitational singularity existed at the beginning of the universe. Singularities are also believed to exist at the center of black holes.
There is a fundamental rule in mathematics saying that you cannot go from the finite to the infinite or vice versa.
Guys like Penrose and Hawking break this rule all the time. The result is of course nonsense - or maybe in their case - ingenious nonsense.

"Infinitely distorted"? Wonder what that looks like?
Ah, the Thesaurus has it all:
distorted - so badly formed or out of shape as to be ugly
Infinitely ugly! I guess that would explain it...
No wonder this universe blew itself to pieces! :shock:

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JaJa
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by JaJa » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:21 am

Hi Klypp
Jaja, as you've noticed, Wikipedia is always changing - most of the time from bad to worse.
I'm amazed there was no reason given for said edit about Penrose' quote. If it was wrong or outdated because of a change in thinking then why not just say so, it really annoyed me because I had to re-write a project :evil:
There is a fundamental rule in mathematics saying that you cannot go from the finite to the infinite or vice versa.
I have heard this before but don't you get around that by saying its an undefined infinity or something, I'm no mathmatician but isn't this like trying to get a Prof to define a point... :(

JJ
Omnia in numeris sita sunt

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klypp
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Re: The Standard Model

Post by klypp » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:17 am

JaJa wrote:I have heard this before but don't you get around that by saying its an undefined infinity or something, I'm no mathmatician but isn't this like trying to get a Prof to define a point... :(
Infinity is not a number. You cannot perform mathematical operations on it.

In math terminology you'll find that undefined is used on expressions with ambigious or meaningless values. Your Prof actually confirmes what I said. ;)

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