Do they really think they know everything?

Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed? Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and forbidden questions in the sciences. Is peer review working? The perverse "consensus of leading scientists." Good public relations versus good science.

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by MrAmsterdam » Thu May 06, 2010 2:57 am

aliens versus politicians
A Russian MP has asked President Dmitry Medvedev to investigate claims by a regional president that he has met aliens on board a spaceship.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8662822.stm
Toronto, May 3 (IANS) Accusing world famous astrophysicist Stephen Hawking of spreading misinformation about threats from aliens, former Canadian defence minister Paul Hellyer claimed Sunday that extraterrestrials have actually been visiting earth for decades.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20100503/86 ... h-for.html
Somebody needs to mail professor Hawking! :D

Btw, I would love to see a talk between former Canadian defence minister Paul Hellyer and professor Hawking.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

JohnMT
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by JohnMT » Fri May 07, 2010 1:54 pm

Hi all,

(My "four-penny worth")

With great respect to the guy, I think that Stephen Hawking only knows what it is that he thinks he knows.

So, in a sense, he is absolutely right...albeit within his own parameters of understanding.

However, it is what he DOESN'T know that is seriously in question, hence these recent and somewhat dubious deliberations and speculations as to the possible existence of alien life-forms elsewhere etc.

Seems to me that Hawking is seriously running out of ideas (or has been watching too many 'Star Trek' programs etc), hence his plea.

To my mind, as with his perpetual persuance of the "apparent" existence of 'Black Holes' and all their mathematical derivatives etc, he unfortunately has nothing much left to fall-back-upon (as in a present participle), other than to now evoke the existence of other-worldly aliens.

As with the completely UNPROVEN notion of 'Black Holes' and now the possible existence of alien life-forms etc and within each subsequent conjecture (and pure conjectures they are), it appears that the "Scientific Method" (which is what "science" is supposedly based upon), has now been completely laid waste.

Unfortunately, both Academia (mostly) and in particular the General Public, courtesy the 'Media', will BUY almost anything that Hawking has to say as being the truth!

Never mind, it is to the "Scientific Method" itself, that I humbly appeal!

ie in both cases (Black Holes and Alien life-forms),

Evidence please!

Cheers,

John

ElecGeekMom
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by ElecGeekMom » Sat May 08, 2010 7:42 am

It just occurred to me that Hawking may be motivated to appear in new media projects not because of new discoveries, but because of the tanking of his investments. It's probably a "follow the money" thing, IMHO.

Has anyone else noticed how many past celebrities are coming to the fore again these days, ever since that huge amount of money disappeared from the money system in Sept. 2008?

Oh, and it probably includes the admonition to not try to contact aliens because that increases the anxiety level in the populace. Worried people spend more money, right? And it increases ratings, too!

Hilton Ratcliffe
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by Hilton Ratcliffe » Sun May 09, 2010 12:10 am

Dear Thunderbolts people,

This particular thread is discussing a vitally important issue. Why is there a >6-decade-long drought in fundamental discoveries in physics, and is this in any way related to the dire drop-off in interest amongst students in pursuing physics as a path of enquiry at university level? I have my own views on this (laid out in my recent book, The Static Universe), which in a nutshell attributes these problems to the dominance of meta-mathematics in university-level physics education. Quote: "Although mathematical modelling is unarguably a powerful and innovative tool that has produced some marvellous, useable physical artefacts—the harnessing of nuclear energy and lasers are prime examples—it is unfortunately also capable of convincing us to camp in blind alleys. Theoretical structures eventually become so convoluted, and the means of expression so arcane, that they end up as self-fulfilling prophecies almost impossible to refute on their own terms. Debates invariably lose themselves in arguments about syntax and the meaning of terms, ultimately blurring their somewhat tenuous connection to physical reality, and protagonists are often seduced by nothing more than the sheer elegance of mathematical expression."

I am in the process of designing degree courses in astronomy and astrophysics for a leading South African university. These courses have no mathematics module at all, relying instead upon the entry requirement that the student has matriculation-level, high school mathematics, and can understand and operate a scientific calculator. Student interest is piqued, and the graduate would be equipped to pursue physical science empirically. In other words, theory will emerge from observation and experience of the physical world, not precede it.

As things stand, the good professors in the department of astronomy (which, typically, is "owned" by the department of mathematics in this university), have reacted very negatively to the idea, and it seems unlikely now that these courses will be incorporated into the the curriculum. This academic year, there are only three students enrolled in astronomy courses (one post-graduate), a small fraction of the number of staff teaching the course, and it seems likely that the department will be closed down permanently in 2011.

With kind regards
Hilton

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Jarvamundo
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by Jarvamundo » Sun May 09, 2010 3:19 am

Welcome Hilton! The course you are describing sounds wonderfully engaging, as it should be... and as is nature! Where do I sign up! ;) I've no problems with mathematics involved in science, it's very useful tool, however you are hitting the nail on the head with mathematically driven cosmology.

Stay in touch, EU-ers will no doubt benefit from your balanced and wide experience, of which will no doubt be warmly received here.

larryduane100
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by larryduane100 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:12 pm

Dr. Radcliffe; I, for one, would be interested in an accredited online course! My last units in Astronomy were obtained in a 'junior college' in the seventies. Hopefully I would qualify for such a course.
I was reading a bio of Shing-Tung Yau in Discover mag (June, 2010)and it mentioned different awards he has received-the Fields Medal, a MacArthur Fellowship, the Wolfe Prize. He chairs the math department at Harvard and he is into string theory, black holes, dark matter-you get the picture.
We will never "take over' the cosmology sciences at this rate. We should have our own accredited courses with Alven prizes, Jeurgens fellowships, Arp Medals, Thornhill scholarships, Talbot studies in archeology,.......
Larry

folaht
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by folaht » Mon May 10, 2010 3:52 pm

I see a lot of anger towards scientists who use faulty mathematical models in this thread and even a professor claiming that overuse of reliance on mathematical models perhaps caused a 6+-decade-long drought in fundamental discoveries in physics and a growing disinterest of students in physics.

I'm not so sure about this, I think I disagree.
So I'd like to ask a few questions (to the professor, but also to those contributing/reading this thread):

I thought quarks were discovered in the 60's. Are they not fundemental?
Could it not be that potential students choose rival studies (ICT, Electrical Engineering and Robotics) instead?

Are you sure that it is just mathematical models that lead to means of expression so arcane, that they end up as self-fulfilling prophecies almost impossible to refute on their own terms?


I'm asking this as I'm wondering whether plate tectonics and the growing earth theory is similar to this. Is that really a case of a vast majority of geologists trusting current mathematical models as well?
Since 1 % 1, 1 * 1 and 1 - 1 do not add up, we must conclude that 1 + 1 is 3.

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Jarvamundo
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Establish the Electric University

Post by Jarvamundo » Mon May 10, 2010 7:12 pm

Larry has a good idea with an online course, just seeing how MIT presents their online open courseware material is awesome.

Many universities are now producing full online courses for physics, i'm sure an astronomy course would be well suited to online studies, since all we deal with are arrays of ccd photon counts. The conferencing and interactive tools are there, and often open source. A university course in Arp, Jeurgens, Alven, Perratt, Thornhill, Talbot and maybe some cell-biology in there, even pepper it with a little Crothers... would be a fascinating engagement in natural philosophy. Keeping the course strictly limited to spacial dimensions of empirical experience ;).

Generally my problem with mathematically driven cosmology is when cosmologists, as is now, demand "new physics" and pass the ball to particle physicists to 'go find it'. Probably best wrapped up by an Alfven quote:

"I have always believed that astrophysics should be the extrapolation of laboratory physics, that we must begin from the present universe and work our way backward to progressively more remote and uncertain epochs."

The Electric University
Count me in Dr

Until then... TB is it :)

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by MrAmsterdam » Tue May 11, 2010 3:11 am

That would be great, an online Electric Universe University. Count me in!

But how will we experiment with plasma? Online?
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

larryduane100
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by larryduane100 » Wed May 12, 2010 7:08 am

Thanks for the support, jarvo. The resident cosmology genius of Harvard being the chairman of the math department just shows how confused mainstream science is. A fellow like Perrat is the obvious choice for leader of the "queen of the sciences" in an ideal academic world.
Larry

ElecGeekMom
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by ElecGeekMom » Fri May 14, 2010 9:04 am

larryduane100 wrote:Dr. Radcliffe; I, for one, would be interested in an accredited online course! My last units in Astronomy were obtained in a 'junior college' in the seventies. Hopefully I would qualify for such a course.
I was reading a bio of Shing-Tung Yau in Discover mag (June, 2010)and it mentioned different awards he has received-the Fields Medal, a MacArthur Fellowship, the Wolfe Prize. He chairs the math department at Harvard and he is into string theory, black holes, dark matter-you get the picture.
We will never "take over' the cosmology sciences at this rate. We should have our own accredited courses with Alven prizes, Jeurgens fellowships, Arp Medals, Thornhill scholarships, Talbot studies in archeology,.......
Larry
I like the way you think!

I also would be interested in your courses, Dr. Ratcliffe!

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Jarvamundo
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by Jarvamundo » Fri May 14, 2010 11:39 pm

This academic year, there are only three students enrolled in astronomy courses (one post-graduate)
Well 1 post... and you doubled your enrollments. :)

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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by jjohnson » Sat May 15, 2010 4:01 pm

For readers unfamiliar with Dr. Ratcliffe, in 2008 he published The Virtue of Heresy - Confessions of a Dissident Astronomer. In his dedication he wrote,
This work is for all those who fearlessly declare their heresy against prevailing scientific doctrine and especially for three of them: Dr. Halton Arp, Prof. Paul Marmot, and Sir Fred Hoyle."
In Chapter 3, Dr. Ratcliffe is enumerating counter-theories to the Big Bang cosmology, noting that, "Good scientists don't just criticise, they offer alternatives." He says,
There is also the Plasma Model, first proposed by Nobel Prize-winner Dr. Hannes Alfven in 1965. It is rapidly gaining wide international support from the scientific community, due in no small measure to its rock-solid empirical base and the weight of observational evidence on its side. The predictions of plasma cosmology The predictions of Plasma Cosmology have passed every single test that has come from empirical evidence over a period of over forty years. Makes you think, doesn't it?"
Dr. Ratcliffe is less sanguine about the "offshoot of Plasma Cosmology", observing that it is a vibrant hybrid known exclusively by its adherents as ELectric Universe (EU). He goes on to chide EU because
they propose that electrical engineers alone understand the true nature of the cosmos and that astrophysicists are idiots, generally little more than half-blind misconstruction of the physical evidence. Despite being gravely insulted by some of their utterances, I am nevertheless drawn to look beyond their Velikovskian roots to seek out the true role of electrical interactions in celestial objects."
That observation at once stings, and it shows his immense objectivity and ability to get on with the dialog. It stings because I have observed some of the attacks, and admit to having written here about being put off by a lot of the press releases from scientific agencies and institutions whose interpretations differ markedly from mine. I do not believe that we want to be insufferably arrogant or to make scientists feel that EU adherents think that they are idiots. I have written about those attitudes, and take pains to try to make personal contacts with anybody who will take science seriously and discuss alternate ideas.

I personally do not have any Velikovskian background other than having read his works once, when very much younger, finding them more than a little confusing and implausible. Many here like his ideas. Personally, I just let them go and focus on the "how things work" parts and press on. I see Plasma Cosmology and EU ideas as pretty much intertwined, because I do not bother with parts that either are not personal interests, or that I feel are not pertinent to my exploration here, whether or not they may or may not be related in the larger context.

Make no mistake, though. I also see PC and EU as simply an acceptance of the presence of forces at work in addition to gravity only, forces which under the right circumstances play a much larger role than consensus thinking accepts or allows, and that, oddly enough, we are all in this together. Do not demonize the opposition in the same way that a few of them treat dissidents such as themselves. If we do not act like gentlemen (and ladies) in these discussions, people will understandably get their backs up and close their minds. That is hardly the effect we want.

And note well (never stop at half a quote!) Dr. Ratcliffe concludes with this on the Electric Universe:
There's a lot of good in it, so let's put our differences before personalities, friends. That is why Chapter 9 is devoted to cosmic electricity."
Thank you for addressing your observations to us, Dr. R. We're all honored to be in the company of heretics concerning the plausibility and ultimate incorporation of the tenets of the electric model of the universe.

To our readers, I bought the soft-cover book for a very reasonable price, and am currently enjoying my second read. Five stars for its clear thinking, readable presentation of theories and counter-theories, logical rebuttals to current cosmology and science in astronomy, and a great sense of fun as well as serious purpose. Highly recommended.

Jim Johnson

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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by Ronmamita » Sat May 22, 2010 3:16 pm

nick c wrote:The Discovery Channel has been airing a series, How The Universe Works, explaining the secrets of the Universe (to the feeble minded masses) and I cannot help but to be impressed by the sheer magnitude of the hubris of these mathematical theorists! such as, but not limited to, Stephen Hawkings.
Here are some TV Guide summaries for a couple of the episodes:
Black Holes: Examining black holes, the devastation they can wreak and how they shape the universe.
and it only gets worse:
The Story of Everything: The beginning of the universe, the creation of stars and black holes, how everything ends.

Establishment science has become a religion.

Nick
Very true Nick!
I have said this for decades now and I'm hearing this more often from others. You are pointing to what was a small problem decades ago to what has grown to global proportions. It doesn't stop at the academic side either, but continues to the mass media with false news and deliberate obfuscation by News reporters (political spin, health care, "wordsmithing" paid pundits, wars, etc.). Are we living in an Orwellian society?
:lol: LOL,
If I was raising my children today, I would move to a commune and teach them at home and not let the institutions have a chance to "brainwash" them until they have the skills to critically analyze the world around them.

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junglelord
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Re: Do they really think they know everything?

Post by junglelord » Sat May 29, 2010 5:20 pm

Science and Sewage
Valid science is independent and does not have a political or economic agenda attached to it.
Valid science considers ALL data, as opposed to ignoring that which does not fit in its paradigm.
Valid science has reproducible results.
Valid science freely provides information to the public without the necessity of the Freedom of Information Act.
There is solid information that ECO-EXTREMISTS, CORPORATE CEOS, GOVERNMENT ENVIROCRATS, and MEDIA MOGULS form a loose coalition to promote radical, costly, self serving goals, and to mislead and confuse the people at large about environmental problems. Further, many so called scientists, who live from direct or indirect U.S. tax funds, ape these extremist views for personal gain.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/envi ... _fraud.htm
If one takes careful note of the news, you can clearly see that Science and Sewage have a lot in common.
Science and Sewage

In the case of the California Delta, man made water shortages have been imposed on farmers by way of the ESA (Endangered Species Act) for the last three years. Still, the Delta smelt populations have declined, despite the restrictions. While the federal government refused to acknowledge that the cause for the decline in smelt populations was due to up to 1 BILLION gallons of partially treated sewage being flushed into the Delta per day, they blamed the water pumps for the decline in smelt. Their disastrous solution was to cut the water flow to farmers (who supply our country with 50% of its produce and nuts), thereby increasing the water levels in the Delta to dilute pollution.

This didn’t work, smelt populations declined. In fact, California had a wetter-than-usual winter and instead of allowing more water to be delivered to farms, when the Shasta Reservoir filled to its safe capacity level, the water was bled out into the Pacific Ocean. Due to mounting pressure against the corrupt Department of Interior and obvious waste of water, the federal pump’s water delivery was increased in some areas. Many allege that this was also in part due to Central Valley Congressmen Dennis Cardoza and Jim Costa voting in favor of Obamacare, in trade for water to the farm areas. Ironically, the farms were promised 25% of the amount of water that had been contracted (40% is what is needed to keep the farms viable). Further, the farmers were promised a delivery up to 25%, but they were only guaranteed a 5% increase, thereby making it difficult for them to get loans because the farmers, in turn, couldn’t guarantee a harvest with only a 5% increase of water.

Last week, Patricia Gilbert, a professor of ecology and oceanography from the University of Maryland, concluded that the smelt decline was a result of high ammonium levels from urine and feces. Specifically, she cited that the pollution was coming primarily from Sacramento, which doesn’t fully process its sewage before it is dumped into the Delta. Dr. Patricia Gilbert was then forced to resign from the National Academy of Sciences panel. The Academy forced her resignation because she went public with the information and they found it a conflict of interest for her to review her own work. This is incredibly hypocritical, given the profound conflicts of interest within the National Academy of Sciences.

The National Academy of Sciences is a quasi- governmental agency, created during Lincoln’s administration. The Academy advises the government in scientific matters in order to set public policy and law. The NAS is also a tax exempt private corporation (they do not publish their financial records on their website, nor do they list their donors). NAS is subsidized by federal grants and other “contributions” from undisclosed donors. New members are elected by current members, thus ensuring cronyism, a depopulation agenda and fraud.

http://www.infowars.com/agenda-21-alert ... nd-sewage/
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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