apples and apples

[woldemar]

What percentage of the time does 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples ?

steve

[bboyer]

Probably the same percentage of time that 3 apples + 1 apple = 4 apples and 4 apples = 4 apples. Or 0 apples = 0 apples.

[GaryN]

What the heck you guys smoking, and you got any to spare?

[redeye]

mmmmmm....apples.

Cheers!

[woldemar]

I had hoped to engage in a serious discussion upon this important issue/concept. Perhaps then, I might get one from this question.

Can an apple ever be equal/identical to another apple, other than itself ?

steve

[woldemar]

Can an apple ever be equal/identical to another apple, other than itself ?


Is an apple EVER equal to itself over time ?
If an apple is on a tree...it is growing ( constantly changing.)
If an apple gets picked...it starts decaying ( reacting with the temperature changes, light changes , etc)
Or it's physical location changes - it got shipped, washed, packaged and eventually partially eaten and then the core and seeds got tossed away as garbage....or did they fall on the ground and those seeds generate a new apple tree.

Is a point ALWAYS equal to itself over time ?

steve

[redeye]

Can an apple ever be equal/identical to another apple, other than itself ?

I truly did not understand your initial point and meant no offense. As far as I'm aware, two things which are identical in every way can be considered to be identical as they cannot be differentiated from one another. This works in law too. There was an exceptionally talented forger who produced reproductions of famous paintings and got caught. The court found him not guilty as art experts were unable to identify the original work from the forgery.

The chances of two objects being similar right down to the atomic level (or further) would seem to be pretty slim though.

Cheers!

[woldemar]

The chances of two objects being similar right down to the atomic level (or further) would seem to be pretty slim though. redeye

Thanks for your serious response. I say never.

Two objects cannot never occupy the same point in space simultaneously....be they apples or entities of dark matter, indeed any THING physical.

In contrast to a mathematical point wherein I can have as many names for that point as I desire.

These named points, all occupy that same point/location simultaneously. There is the semantic issue as to whether or not a point named Point A when coincident with point B is but one point....here I say no...it is two points assigned to the same location, not one point with two names. In any event, coincident Point A and Point B, are identical except for their names.

What do YOU think ?

steve

[flyingcloud]

only if you limit your thinking to the limitations of "spacetime"

ie there is only one apple

[woldemar]

only if you limit your thinking to the limitations of "spacetime" flyingcloud

This is not about space-time (yet). Please stay with my questions/thread.

ie there is only one apple flyingcloud

Why bring up this impossible scenario ? There have been apples for centuries. Also, minute to minute your apple decomposes....did you not just read that below?

steve

[flyingcloud]

you mentioned point (space), in time

limit your own mind, not mine

sorry it's YOUR game have fun

[Goldminer]

Mathematics is a language, and deals with semantics and logic. It is a discipline. It can describe both reality and fantasy.

Physics is about understanding reality. However, reality will continue in spite what is understood or not,about it.

[mague]

Is a point ALWAYS equal to itself over time ?

steve

Define time please.

If we had a map of time and space, then the apple remains the same at certain space and time coordinates. However, it would not "remain" since it would stand still at those coordinates.

Another approach could be to look if the apple stores informations of its lifetime. He would change but probably has the informations of his whole existence stored. This would mean he remains the same and changes at the same time.

[woldemar]

I asked...:Is a point ALWAYS equal to itself over time ?

steve

quotes by mague Define time please.

is the relationship between the physical and the mathematical.
http://www.watermanpolyhedron.com/FIXEDT.html
http://www.watermanpolyhedron.com/MATHVS.html

If we had a map of time and space,

We do....we call that the universe.

then the apple remains the same at certain space and time coordinates.

Not the question. The apple changes moment by moment....because it is physical.
it is impossible to stop time physically. It is quite possible to omit time in a
mathematical coordinate system. A point is mathematical.

However, it would not "remain" since it would stand still at those coordinates.

Not the question. i am not asking about a frozen snapshot in time.

steve

[MrAmsterdam]

What percentage of the time does 2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples ?

steve

Answer this question then, why wouldn't it be?

other question;

I really dont get it.

http://www.watermanpolyhedron.com/MATHVS.html

MATHEMATICAL
intellectual, imagined, abstract, created
"impossible to manifest perfectly: physically"
examples....point, line, square, circle, cube, Cartesean coordinate system

then

Physically there is a problem with apple equality. This mathematical technique works great for just numbers… their inter-relationship is based upon the continuity of evaluation… all intervals between 0, 1, 2, 3, etc. being exactly equivalent.
When numbers are applied to any physical reality, this continuity needs to be in place in order that the numbers reflect an underlying reality.

ok, can you or cant you use math??? whats the conclusion here? Where does this "continuity" pop up from?
yes indeed...this is an abstraction....
reality is just reality.

PHYSICAL
real, tangible, manifested, exists

examples....neutrino, photons, quarks, mesons, leptons, sub-atomic particles, protons, atoms, anti-matter

So sorry mate. Thats exactly the wrong conclusions being drawn when you make virtual computermodels based on maths only! Anti-matter? Show me! Proof it! But dont proof it with mathematical abstracts only......

Youll find proof in this concept of reality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism anytime!

the empirical way would be; keep on counting different apples. Once you discover and see the answer turns out 5 (?)
your concept or abstraction has a little exception....back to the drawing board then...