Reciprocal System Theory

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StevenO
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Reciprocal System Theory

Unread post by StevenO » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:42 am

Total Science wrote:Gravitation is a myth.

Any hypothesis of gravitation is theology and not science.
So, collecting outdated quotes is the new form of science?
"That gravity should be innate inherent and essential to matter so that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum without the mediation of any thing else by and through which their action or force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters any competent faculty of thinking can ever fall into it. Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws, but whether this agent be material or immaterial is a question I have left to the consideration of my readers." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, February 1693
At least Newton is honest that he can't explain his observations.

For a explanation why gravity is indeed innate to matter, read here: Beyond Newton
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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by nick c » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:17 am

hi StevenO,
From a link, within the link that you gave:
Dewey Larson wrote:There is no evidence that the strength of the gravitational effect has varied or is varying with time.
http://library.rstheory.org/books/bn/01.html
This acceptance of the assumption of the gravitational constant is not warranted. However, while there has not been conclusive falsification of that assumption, there is ample evidence that casts doubt on its' validity. That is, the unequivocal acceptance of that assumption excludes some possible avenues of discovery.
Wal Thornhill has cited the problem of size of animals from past geological ages which could not have walked the Earth today; anomalous conclusions about the density of celestial bodies such as- Mercury basically being a chunk of iron, Saturn's density as less than water, white dwarfs and neutron stars, as well as the complete breakdown on galactic scales of a gravitational analysis, and the assumption of matter = mass. These certainly could present problems for the assumption of a constant G if presented in a context, such as that proposed by Thornhill.
Experiments measuring the gravity on Earth have yielded inconclusive and different results. [The author of this article also subscribe to the assumption of a gravitational constant, however it shows that there is "no clear value for G", at least from a measurement pov]:
Let´s summarize the situation: many experiments have been effected recently, yet at the level of a quarter percent there is no clear value for G. The new experiments use a variety
of methods, most moving away from twisted fibre ideology, but their results fail to converge.

http://www.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~rkritzer/grav.pdf

highlights added
See today's TPOD [url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00current.htm]Imagine Another Wet Rocky Planet[/url2]
and Thornhill's [url2=http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=q1q6sz2s]Newtons Electric Clockwork Solar System[/url2]

Other than that a particular theory requires the assumption, is there any proof that G is constant?

nick c

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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by Total Science » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:32 am

StevenO wrote:So, collecting outdated quotes is the new form of science?
You're the one married to outdated quotes and theories. Gravitation is from the 17th century. Welcome to the 21st century.
At least Newton is honest that he can't explain his observations.
I agree that "God did it" is not an explanation for gravity.
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007

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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by StevenO » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:21 pm

nick c wrote:This acceptance of the assumption of the gravitational constant is not warranted. However, while there has not been conclusive falsification of that assumption, there is ample evidence that casts doubt on its' validity. That is, the unequivocal acceptance of that assumption excludes some possible avenues of discovery.
Wal Thornhill has cited the problem of size of animals from past geological ages which could not have walked the Earth today;
Dinosaurs should have collapsed under their own weight? There is no reason to assume that the explanation for that must be a different strength of gravity since we do not measure large differences in gravity over time since we are measuring it. The explanation could be similar to the story that we could'nt explain why tuna's or dolphins are such fast swimmers. It proved that their tail muscles are much stronger than we ever imagined or saw before.
nick c wrote:anomalous conclusions about the density of celestial bodies such as- Mercury basically being a chunk of iron, Saturn's density as less than water, white dwarfs and neutron stars, as well as the complete breakdown on galactic scales of a gravitational analysis, and the assumption of matter = mass. These certainly could present problems for the assumption of a constant G if presented in a context, such as that proposed by Thornhill.
This is the same line of reasoning that gave us the black holes, big bang and other fantasies...It "must" be the only explanation...
Larson with his RST theory shows that these explanation gaps are caused by:
1. Astronomers not recognizing the default outward expansion motion of the universe as e.g. a counterforce to gravity
2. Astronomers not recognizing motions in time (motion >c) which cause a.o. compact objects like white dwarfs or quasars
3. Astronomers not recognizing that planet cores are made of white dwarf star debris covered by aggregate matter (that alone would explain a growing earth and a change in gravity over time).
nick c wrote:Experiments measuring the gravity on Earth have yielded inconclusive and different results. [The author of this article also subscribe to the assumption of a gravitational constant, however it shows that there is "no clear value for G", at least from a measurement pov]:
Let´s summarize the situation: many experiments have been effected recently, yet at the level of a quarter percent there is no clear value for G.
Yes, but the article states it must be mostly due to systematic errors in the measurement setups and not because G is fundamentally instable. According to the CODATA measurements it is accurate within about 1500ppm.

Here is another article here that suggests variations in G are caused by our orientation wrt. to the fixed stars: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-u-massvariation.asp. It reports even bigger variations in measurement than your article.
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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by StevenO » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:47 pm

Total Science wrote:
StevenO wrote:So, collecting outdated quotes is the new form of science?
You're the one married to outdated quotes and theories. Gravitation is from the 17th century. Welcome to the 21st century.
I did'nt notice the laws of physics suddenly changed this century...but I did notice it is much easier to spread crap around over the internet these days. BTW, I pointed you to a 20th century theory of gravity that does explain why Newton's Law of Gravition is correct next to explaining why it is intrinsic to matter and why it has nothing to do with EM.
Total Science wrote:
At least Newton is honest that he can't explain his observations.
I agree that "God did it" is not an explanation for gravity.
So, what does your theory say about it then?
First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
The past is out of date. Start living your future. Align with your dreams. Now execute.

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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by nick c » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:49 pm

Hi StevenO,
Dinosaurs should have collapsed under their own weight? There is no reason to assume that the explanation for that must be a different strength of gravity since we do not measure large differences in gravity over time since we are measuring it. The explanation could be similar to the story that we could'nt explain why tuna's or dolphins are such fast swimmers. It proved that their tail muscles are much stronger than we ever imagined or saw before.
I don't see the comparison of herds of 100 ton dinosaurs to fast swimming tuna or dolphin, the scale of the parts of the analogy are way off. The fact that we do not detect significant variation in g since we have been measuring is not relevant to the argument. The whole idea is that changes were sudden, at least that is what the geologic record indicates, otherwise dinosaurs would have had time to adapt to slowly changing conditions. The topic has been debated on other threads and I don't want it to take over this one, as this is probably not a proper topic for this forum. I only put it out there as possible evidential support for a non gravitational constant, along with several other things. That was in response to a Larson quote stating there was no evidence that the gravitational force has varied.
Larson with his RST theory shows that these explanation gaps are caused by:
1. Astronomers not recognizing the default outward expansion motion of the universe as e.g. a counterforce to gravity
Which outward expansion would that be? The one that is determined by the redshift? What if Halton Arp and the EU is correct about redshift and there is no expanding universe?
2. Astronomers not recognizing motions in time (motion >c) which cause a.o. compact objects like white dwarfs or quasars
The EU has alternate explanations for white dwarfs and quasars that don't require motions in time. They are not compressed objects. It seems that the EU explanations are more straightforward, simpler, not requiring new interpretations of physics.
3. Astronomers not recognizing that planet cores are made of white dwarf star debris covered by aggregate matter

How do we know about the nature of planetary cores? Does that mean that every planet core was once a white dwarf? From what we can see, there are probably many more planets than stars, how could they all have white dwarf cores? And then again, the EU does not require ultra dense objects whether white dwarf, neutron stars, or black holes.
(that alone would explain a growing earth and a change in gravity over time).
I don't think so. From where does the matter aggregate? and at what rate? The fossil record indicates sudden changes in the size of animals, not a gradual diminishment in size.
But anyway, that is open to debate.


The link I gave concerning measurements of g was only to show that it is somewhat problematic.


The question I originally asked and the whole point of my post:
nick c wrote:Other than that a particular theory requires the assumption, is there any proof that G is constant?
And the answer is no, or at least not conclusive.
I think it is important not to make the mistake of thinking that just because a model assumes something that it becomes a fact.
G may eventually turn out to be a constant...
and then maybe not.

nick c

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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by StevenO » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:52 pm

nick c wrote:The question I originally asked and the whole point of my post:
nick c wrote:Other than that a particular theory requires the assumption, is there any proof that G is constant?
And the answer is no, or at least not conclusive.
I think it is important not to make the mistake of thinking that just because a model assumes something that it becomes a fact.
G may eventually turn out to be a constant...
and then maybe not.

nick c
But since we have been measuring it for the last few hundred years we see no particular variations of G with time, so it is not that some model requires it, but observation that has proven that fact sofar.

According to static aerodynamical theory bumblebees cannot fly. Lucky for them they do not know the theory. Maybe it is the same with the dinosaurs: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/sauropods.html.
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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by sathearn » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:36 pm

Nick C. notes that EU does not require ultra-dense objects whether white dwarfs, neutron stars or black holes.

Regarding Larson's RS, it clearly rejects the latter two kinds of objects as non-existent. But white dwarfs and some other classes of objects with ultra-high apparent density really exist - the question between Larson and mainstream theories is in the understanding of their nature and properties. Larson's claim as to the nature of white dwarfs is based on his premise that time and space are reciprocal entities - each therefore "progresses" and each is three dimensional. One product of a supernova explosion expands in space - so that the the object which then condenses is a star in which there is a large amount of empty space between the atoms, namely a red giant star which may have a mass comparable to our own sun and a diameter comparable to that of the solar system. The other product of the supernova, mostly composed of iron-rich materials near the center of the star, expands into three dimensional time due it its ultra-high speeds. It has a lot of "empty time" between its atoms. More time is equivalent to less space, and since we receive our information through space, we observe densities in these objects that appear to be fantastically high. Larson stressed that these are appearances, however, saying that matter is never actually far from the densities that we find in ordinary matter.

Both types of stars contract toward the main sequence - the contraction of the dwarf appearing to us as expansion in space.

The way Larson relates this to planetary systems is that when a Type II supernova (which is based on an ionization or age limit, rather than a mass or temperature limit, as in the case of Type I), the stars which undergo such an explosion can be of any size. Some of them are therefore not large enough to form a red giant-white dwarf pair, and the component that would have been a white dwarf instead becomes a planetary system.

As to how this might relate to the growing earth hypothesis, I quote two writers on RS:

First, Ronald Satz (the Unmysterious Universe, 1971, p. 63):

"Just as pulsars and white dwarfs expand under the influence of gravitation in the time region, so do planets and satellites - but on a much smaller scale. Eventually gravitational equilibrium is reached (as now exists in our solar system), and the planets and satellites grow only by accretion. Estimated to be 1000 tons a day on earth, such accretion could eventually transform the landscape."

Second, Arnold D. Studtmann (Toward a Unified Cosmological Physics: The Reciprocal System of D.B. Larson, PhD dissertation, National Graduate School, 1979, pp 389-390):

"A highly tentative conjecture regarding planetary structure is submitted for further consideration. There seems to be considerable evidence that Earth has been slowly expanding over a long period of time. This evidence, as noted, has been adduced by some students of general relativity in support of the notion that the universal gravitational constant G is diminishing in accord with Dirac's hypothesis. However, according to Larson's theory, the Type B [iron-rich] material in the earth's core had its origin in that part of the supernova which explodes in time. Subsequent gravitational collapse in time is equivalent to expansion in space. If such expansion has not yet terminated by the time planetary accretion is essentially complete, then it is conceivable that planetary expansion may be manifesting itself as further continental separation, rifts in the ocean floor, etc. One concedes the possibility of other explanations for this phenomenon, however.

I myself am inclined to think that this "contraction in time" phenomenon, if it exists, would not explain either the evidence for earth expansion or for increasing earth mass. For one thing, white dwarfs appear to be so dense because of their apparently strong gravity (indicated by binary relations) in comparison with their apparent volume. That in itself does not speak to the issue of their surface gravity, however. Furthermore if this effect alone were supposed to explain the growing earth evidence, as StevenO suggests, it would not account for why that evidence seems to show long eons of very slow growth, which now seems to be following an exponential pattern. (See Dr. James Maxlow's lecture here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f6hcGJbjL0 ).

Larson, himself described a process of "atom building" - by which atoms ejected by the cosmic sector of the universe - the cosmic rays - gradually break down to zero-mass particles and then material particles of increasing mass. Those zero-mass particles constantly enter the earth and by some means the atom building process goes on. In his Neglected Facts of Science (1982, p 124), Larson characterized the evidence as follows:

"The factual information thus far available does not define the nature of the process by which the heavier elements are built up, except that it requires this process to be one that operates continuously throughout the existence of matter in the material sector. This rules out processes such as the currently favored high temperature reactions in the central regions of the stars, and it suggests some kind of a capture process. Neutrons are readily absorbed under almost any conditions, and may play the dominant role. For present purposes, however, all that we need to know is that such a process exists, a fact that is demonstrated by the observed results."

Larson pursued a more theoretically motivated analysis of the issue in Nothing but Motion (1979) and Basic Properties of Matter (1988). I leave what he had to say for another time.

(Note that Larson predicted massless neutrons as well as the massed variety.)

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Re: Time For A New Theory Of Gravitation? Satellite Galaxies Cha

Unread post by MGmirkin » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:49 pm

StevenO wrote:
flyingcloud wrote:
“The only solution is to reject Newton’s theory. If we live in a Universe where a modified law of gravitation applies, then our observations would be explainable without dark matter.”
So instead of revising their unproven 'dark matter' theories they want to revoke Newton's law of gravity? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
And they do expect others to take them seriously? :shock:
Are you sure you've understood their meaning correctly?

My reading implied that if Newton's gravity is rejected and some modified gravity replaces it, dark matter would become unnecessary... IE, the change would do away with dark matter rather than promulgating it further. Of course the whole thing is a big house of cards at the moment anyway.

~Michael
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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