Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

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Nereid
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Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Nereid » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:06 am

TPOD, Nov 29, 2010, by Mel Acheson

The paper that the ESO PR is based on is a Research Letter to the journal Nature, "The dynamical mass of a classical Cepheid variable star in an eclipsing binary system", with G. Pietrzynski, I. B. Thompson, W. Gieren, D. Graczyk, G. Bono, A. Udalski, I. Soszynski, D. Minniti, and B. Pilecki as authors (the link is the same as in the ESO PR, to a PDF).

Here is the abstract:
Pietrzynski et al. wrote:Stellar pulsation theory provides a means of determining the masses of pulsating classical Cepheid supergiants—it is the pulsation that causes their luminosity to vary. Such pulsational masses are found to be smaller than the masses derived from stellar evolution theory: this is the Cepheid mass discrepancy problem1,2, for which a solution is missing3–5.An independent, accurate dynamical mass determination for a classical Cepheid variable star (as opposed to type-II Cepheids, low-mass stars with a very different evolutionary history) in a binary system is needed in order to determine which is correct. The accuracy of previous efforts to establish a dynamical Cepheid mass from Galactic single-lined non-eclipsing binaries was typically about 15–30 per cent (refs 6, 7), which is not good enough to resolve the mass discrepancy problem. In spite of many observational efforts8,9, no firm detection of a classical Cepheid in an eclipsing double-lined binary has hitherto been reported. Herewe report the discovery of a classical Cepheid in a well detached, double-lined eclipsing binary in the Large Magellanic Cloud. We determine the mass to a precision of one per cent and show that it agrees with its pulsation mass, providing strong evidence that pulsation theory correctly and precisely predicts the masses of classical Cepheids.

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:58 pm

Mel Acheson summarizing Arp wrote:Halton Arp’s discoveries of connections between high-redshift quasars and low-redshift active galaxies have already brought “ultra-luminous” objects at great distances back to being “normally luminous” objects at much closer distances. The objects may even be “under-luminous” and located at nearby distances. With both redshift and Cepheids thrown into doubt, astronomers are left with no reliable way to determine distances to galaxies. Astronomy is once again open to new fundamental insights.
Of course, why would anyone pay attention to Arp? he's just the world authority on several catalogs of stellar and quasi stellar objects!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

Nereid
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Nereid » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:27 pm

Goldminer wrote:[...] he's just the world authority on several catalogs of stellar and quasi stellar objects!
What catalogs would they be, Goldminer?

As far as I know, he is best known for Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, published in 1966. Many - most? - galaxies in that atlas are what we'd today call interacting, or merging, (pairs) of galaxies, and many are being studied by the citizen scientists in Galaxy Zoo (the Mergers sub-zoo).

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:07 pm

Nereid wrote:As far as I know, he is best known for Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, published in 1966. Many - most? - galaxies in that atlas are what we'd today call interacting, or merging, (pairs) of galaxies, and many are being studied by the citizen scientists in Galaxy Zoo (the Mergers sub-zoo).
Ooooo, Ooooo, I am impressed! A group of people who all agree with themselves and congratulate themselves for having thought alike! Yes, we, (not you and the mouse in your pocket) here at Thunderbolts would probably see your "interacting, or merging, (pairs) of galaxies" as (from a different angle of view, other than head-on) as being separated by a distance beyond that of interaction. But go on, congratulate yourselves some more.
from wikipedia wrote:As more recent experiments have expanded the amount of collected data by orders of magnitude, it has become increasingly simple to test Arp's postulates directly. A recent study stated that:

"... the publicly available data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and 2dF QSO redshift survey to test the hypothesis that QSOs are ejected from active galaxies with periodic noncosmological redshifts. For two different intrinsic redshift models, [..] and find there is no evidence for a periodicity at the predicted frequency in log(1+z), or at any other frequency. "[9]

Nonetheless, Arp has not wavered from his stand against the Big Bang and still publishes articles stating his contrary view in both popular and scientific literature, frequently collaborating with Geoffrey Burbidge and Margaret Burbidge.[10]
Yes, I agree that modern equipment enable those with unshakable beliefs to not have their beliefs shaken with better data. When they apply their criteria to the data, surprise, the data confirm their theory! You cannot see the circular reasoning involved since to do so would shake your belief.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

Sparky
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Sparky » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:50 pm

We determine the mass to a precision of one per cent and show that it agrees with its pulsation mass, providing strong evidence that pulsation theory correctly and precisely predicts the masses of classical Cepheids.
well, there you go...can't argue with such precision and unassailable
logic...that is if we ignore the speculations built upon assumptions. :D
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

Nereid
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Nereid » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:11 am

Goldminer, you seem to have missed this:
Nereid wrote:
Goldminer wrote:[...] he's just the world authority on several catalogs of stellar and quasi stellar objects!
What catalogs would they be, Goldminer?
Other than the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, what catalogs are you referring to?
Sparky wrote:that is if we ignore the speculations built upon assumptions.
What speculations and assumptions are you referring to, Sparky?

From the TPOD:
Mel Acheson wrote:In the Electric Universe, variations in luminosity are caused by oscillations in the currents powering the stars and are likely “atmospheric” effects. Mass is proportional to the charge on a body and may be unrelated to the oscillations unless they deposit or remove charge.
Other than Thornhill (2007), what papers (that you know of) have been published on this idea?

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Aristarchus
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Aristarchus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:56 am

Nereid wrote:Other than the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, what catalogs are you referring to?
1. Catalogue of Discordant Redshift Associations

2. A Catologue of Southern Peculiar Galaxies and Associations
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:38 am

Nereid wrote:Goldminer, you seem to have missed this:
Nereid wrote:
Goldminer wrote:[...] he's just the world authority on several catalogs of stellar and quasi stellar objects!
What catalogs would they be, Goldminer?
Other than the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, what catalogs are you referring to?
I am hereby retracting the words "several catalogs of." My statement now reads: He is the world authority on stellar and quasi stellar objects! No other astronomer has spent his whole productive life on investigating these objects. His Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies is only a part of his contribution to our further understanding of the Universe. Do you think that all he learned from producing the catalog is totally summarized in the pictures? The ad hominem, vitriol, and vituperation reigned down upon him by the smarmy smug consensus cosmologists is shameful. And you, Nereid, prance around Thunderbolts Forum endorsing the smarmy smug consensus cosmologists.

Your threads are stimulating the intellectual juices of Thunderbolts Forum members! This is good for the Forum. Let's just hope that your "Prancing Horse" doesn't fall and harm you, and be especially aware that you may be at the barn door to the the dustbin of history.
Goldminer wrote:In spite of Nereid's facile "open-mindedness," her prejudices and agenda are very apparent . . . As long as the consensus is with the "Gravity runs the universe," "The Universe is expanding" and "Stars are internally powered," Nereid, using her view of reality, will be attempting to persuade with religious fervor, anyone stopping by.
Nereid wrote:Here's one more challenge, by Goldminer: "exactly what "problems" are there with that document?"

I have accepted this challenge, in the sense that I will start a thread in the Electric Universe section (or add to an existing one) and discuss why "that document" fails.
I have not seen her "explain" where or why "that document" fails.

This examination of the "CMB," which is pivotal as to whether "microwave background" really has "cosmic" origins, is a conversation killer to the rest of Nereid's arguments. Until we see her refutation of this lucid demonstration of facts, the rest of Nereid's arguments are moot, merely contributing to the background noise.
.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:46 am

Aristarchus wrote:
Nereid wrote:Other than the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, what catalogs are you referring to?
1. Catalogue of Discordant Redshift Associations

2. A Catologue of Southern Peculiar Galaxies and Associations
Thank you, Aristarchus.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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Aristarchus
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Aristarchus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:25 am

Goldminer wrote:I am hereby retracting the words "several catalogs of." My statement now reads: He is the world authority on stellar and quasi stellar objects! No other astronomer has spent his whole productive life on investigating these objects.
I wouldn't retract anything in response to Nereid. The catalogs I listed above are a continuation of the work that Arp is doing, and they're fairly recent. In addition, Arps recent catalogues are cited in papers published in The Astrophysical Journal. Otherwise, you're caught up in the semantics created by Nereid which simply states the obvious that one source is the standard model well-equipped with funding and academic influence, and the other, the non standard model that is severely underfunded - as well as inadequately tested.

Think about it. How could Arp be a world authority regarding the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, but any subsequent work based off his own research does not constitute the same line of reasoning? The reasons why Arp's research is not accepted by the standard model is still the debate - and doesn't gain anything from the added circular semantic gymnastics from Nereid.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:58 pm

I fully understand, Aristarchus. Actually my donkey and I discuss Nereid's posts around the campfire, and I just take the best quotes from my donkey and post them here. Do ya think I am holding my own?
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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StevenJay
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by StevenJay » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:43 am

Goldminer wrote:I fully understand, Aristarchus. Actually my donkey and I discuss Nereid's posts around the campfire, and I just take the best quotes from my donkey and post them here. Do ya think I am holding my own?
I'd say, you have a very smart ass! :lol: Hey, somebody was bound to say it, so I figured it might as well be me! :P
It's all about perception.

Goldminer
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Goldminer » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:47 pm

Aw, gees, I take that as a compliment, me my ass and my lab, Meth! Always on the move since the wind keeps a changin', but awe, those starry nights! I don't care what anybody else believes; It is truly the hand of God!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

Nereid
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Nereid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:28 am

Goldminer wrote:
Nereid wrote:Goldminer, you seem to have missed this:
Nereid wrote:
Goldminer wrote:[...] he's just the world authority on several catalogs of stellar and quasi stellar objects!
What catalogs would they be, Goldminer?
Other than the Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, what catalogs are you referring to?
I am hereby retracting the words "several catalogs of." My statement now reads: He is the world authority on stellar and quasi stellar objects!
I am not aware of any significant work Arp has published, or even done, on stellar objects.

If you know of any, would you please provide some relevant references?
No other astronomer has spent his whole productive life on investigating these objects.
May I ask you how you came to this conclusion, Goldminer?

As far as I know, thousands of other astronomers have spent the whole of their productive lives investigating stars (or stellar objects), and hundreds, possibly thousands, of other astronomers have spent the whole of their productive lives investigating quasi stellar objects (and/or AGNs/Seyferts/FRII sources/blazars/etc).
His Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies is only a part of his contribution to our further understanding of the Universe. Do you think that all he learned from producing the catalog is totally summarized in the pictures? The ad hominem, vitriol, and vituperation reigned down upon him by the smarmy smug consensus cosmologists is shameful.
Can you give ten, say, examples of "consensus cosmologists" who have "reigned" [sic] "ad hominem, vitriol, and vituperation" [sic] down upon Arp? Be sure to provide explicit, concrete examples of such, for each of the ten.
And you, Nereid, prance around Thunderbolts Forum endorsing the smarmy smug consensus cosmologists.
I do?

Well, I guess that should make it a trivially simple task, to find ten (or more!) such cosmologists, shouldn't it? :P

(to be continued, maybe)

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Aristarchus
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Re: Eclipsing Cepheid Falsifies Stellar Evolution Theory

Post by Aristarchus » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:54 pm

Nereid wrote:I am not aware of any significant work Arp has published, or even done, on stellar objects.
Your first question to Goldminer was what other catalogues had been written by Halton Arp. The answer was provided in this topic, and yet, you now ignore it an move on with more obfuscation. :roll: We''ll throw away the setup and nonobjective word you used, i.e., "significant," and now chase your goal post around with other examples.

Pull up the following PDF paper that Arp did with other colleagues, which you appear to think do not exist, and type in the pdf search box stellar evolution:

Intrinsic Redshifts in Quasars and Galaxies

In fact, Arp wrote a paper that was published in the Journal: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 116, p.547 with the title Velorum and Stellar Evolution

You can find it here: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1956MNRAS.116..547A

Better yet - here's the link to the Full Refereed Journal Article (PDF/Postscript)

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi- ... etype=.pdf
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison

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