Asteroids

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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LongtimeAirman
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by LongtimeAirman » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:15 pm

Sparky,

I'm trying really hard. I've lost many brain cells. I'll leave this topic after this post unless someone asks me a question, (you don't count cause you always have questions).

As the asteroid/comet approaches the sun, there is an increase in the number of photons (as per the inverse EM quad law) impacting the comet. The impact rate exceeds the rate at which the comet recycles the photons back into space. This imbalance causes increased charging, electrical heating, and stress throughout the comet. Things begin to glow. Electrons are stripped, molecular and atomic bonds break, fractures are created and dust forms. The increased charge field of the comet exceeds the gravity field and so the dust leaves the surface. The dust maintains spacing due to their mutual photon bombardments and continue to glow until they dissolve into smaller particles. The comet is not a uniform object. Parts of it are more susceptible to the increased charging. The "weakest" areas show the earliest and strongest reaction and may form apparent jets. As the charge continues to grow, more parts begin to shine. This will only end when the photon supply/recycles balance is restored (as when the comet stops approaching the sun).

It's clear I'm speculating, because Miles hasn't provided all these answers yet. Shoot it down. Don't just dismiss it.

REMcB

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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by moses » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:27 pm

The EU model of comets deals with double layers, whereas Miles does not do this. I'm all for Miles' charge field, but double layers and Birkeland Currents need to be considered also.
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Chromium6
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by Chromium6 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:46 pm

Hello LongtimeAirman,

Combining this guy, Dr. Körtvélyessy and Mathis may answer a few questions. Mathis hasn't worked out these details in his model but it is clearly do-able (the cold sun). Combining these two, IMHO, makes the "reality" as we see it. Mathis needs to take a stab at the idea of the Filament with his model (or at least a Mathis' acolyte).

http://www.the-electric-universe.info/scripts.html
http://www.5th-state-of-matter.info/5th ... html#ewdwd

What releases the stellar wind?


The thermoelement-electrons continually arrive at the solar surface due to the continual existence of the solar temperature difference between the solar core and surface and due to the almost infinite number of 0.6 x 1060 electrons in the core. All other solar particles with mass (e.g. protons) are at least 1836 heavier than the electrons. Iron ions are more than 100 000 times heavier than the electrons. The more than 316 times slower iron ions (316² = 100 000) remain in the depth, the electrons come out (see equation 1).According to my new thermoelement-law i.e. to the electric astronomy, the thermoelement-electrons surface continually. These more and more thermoelement-electrons cannot be stored on the solar surface. They release a continual electrostatic explosion on the solar surface due to the very strong electric repulsion among these free thermoelement-electrons. Every new surfaced electron repulses all already surfaced electrons upwards. Also the already upwards flying electrons in the free space are repulsed with the electric force which is much stronger than their gravity (table 2.2). This process is similar to the continually injected kerosine in a jet-motor. A continual explosion is the result (1.04). These electrons in charge overbalance drag along light matter from the surface with a high velocity of 750 km/s. electric force which is much stronger than their gravity (table 2.2). This process is similar to the continually injected kerosine in a jet-motor. A continual explosion is the result (1.04).
These electrons in charge overbalance drag along light matter from the surface with a high velocity of 750 km/s.
Vice versa: no other force could accelerate this flow of about 1 million ton matter/second to the velocity of 750 km/s.

Image

3.1 The Sun as a thermoelement In the solar core of about 15 MK, the electrons (small spheres with zig-zag velocity arrows) have an average thermal velocity of 26 000 km/s (equation 1). The protons (points) are much slower. The thermal electron-velocity is only 510 km/s on the surface according to the Boltzmann-law. The result is that the hot particles and the strong photons continually push out the electrons from the core. The surfaced electrons hardly find a way back. The HRD-stars are similar to an atom: their small but heavy core is made positive (++) by the lost electrons and the big body is made negative by the electrons which wander to the surface, see big "minus" signs. (Particles are not shown between core and surface.)

The difference between the masses of electron and proton causes automatically the the solar wind ! Its measured velocity of 750 km/s can be calculated for the very first time !
This very quick solar wind cannot be understood without the new thermoelement-law. Astronomy Prof. K.R. Lang (1995) "We do not understand the basic driving mechanism of the solar wind." (p. 123.)
I hope that my readers are happy. My new thermoelement-law simply and automatically explains "the basic driving mechanism of the solar wind". It explains also all wind-measurements of Skylab, IMP-8, Ulysses in all details. It is evolved in the chapter on the wind.

The electric circuit of this solar thermoelement is very simple:

Image


3.2 The electric circuit of the stellar thermoelement A very small amount from the 0.6 x 1060 core-electrons are pumped by the temperature difference from the core (left) through the plasma (line) into the infinite space as stellar wind (right). This solar thermoelement delivers a negative direct current of -1014 A into space from its negative pole (on the right) since gigayears. This electric wind drags-along light matter (hydrogen, 4% helium, protons, alpha particles but no magnesium (see Ulysses) and no heavy elements. This is the negatively charged solar wind (see chapter 4.5).

The thermoelement electrons come out from the Sun not due to the 2 000 V thermovoltage, but the thermovoltage is the result of the pushed electrons in the Sun. The same is valid in all other terrestrial or celestial thermoelements.
Not a section of the Sun is a dynamo (which has no circuit !) but the whole Sun is a simple thermoelement-generator (with a simple circuit). The temperature difference is directly converted to electric energy as in the Pu-batteries of the spacecrafts. No mechanic drive as in the alleged solar dynamo is necessary.
In this new and electric astronomy, the inexplicable dynamo is totally substituted with the simple thermoelement.
It is not anymore necessary to look for the dynamo´s position in the Sun. Where is the dynamo ? Is it:

just below the surface (Babcock, Parker, Leighton 1950-1960),
deep in the convection zone (Kusserow, Denzer 1980-1990)
just below the convection zone in the rigid body, in the depth of 220 000 km (Scherrer 1997)
in the core (Lang 1995, Grandpierre 1996)

The "solar dynamo" is nowhere in the Sun.


The whole Sun is a thermoelement-generator.


All thermoelement-parameters are measurable. The current of this thermoelement is transported by the solar wind.


The solar thermoelement does not produce inductive current. It needs only temperature difference, not rotation. This generator is absolutely not braked by the induction according to the Lenz-law.
The wind moves antigravitationally. An electrically neutral explanation has only the heat-motion which can move upwards. Particles should push particles in all directions, also upwards. This electrically neutral wind would be a neutral thermal evaporation of the hot solar surface.

But the thermal cause of the fast solar wind should have a temperature of 24 MK according to the Boltzmann-equation0.5 mv² = 1.5 kT (1)(M. 01). However, this very high temperature is nowhere to be found on the surface (nor in the whole Sun).

Parker supposed only 2 MK. But this is also non-existent on the surface and not detectable as emitted mass in the heliosphere. The corona, as a wind-source, is impossible due to the fact that the solar wind exists (it is even strongest, then) when no corona is present (4.67).

Yohkoh´s and SOHO´s sharp pictures do not show a trace of an evaporating process of the coronal loops. These beautiful pictures were not available in Parker´s time. According to the electric model, the corona is not hot but positive (see below). Naturally, a positive corona cannot emit a negative wind.Instead of the heat, the wind-particles are simply emitted and accelerated electrically in a cold way. Their direction in this model is automatically correct: only upwards (4.47) and not in all directions as in the case of an evaporation ! These particles do not collide, they fly on parallel orbits, along the electric field. This is why they do no emit electromagnetic waves while flying along their almost straight orbits. The Sun is similar to an electrostatic paint-jet, not to a torch paint-jet.

The stellar wind is negatively charged, therefore, it has no recombination light: it repulses electrons. During 9 eclipses of the Maunder Minimum the solar wind was invisible for unaided eyes. But it would be also undetectable in X-ray.

However in the present time, the wind drags along positive ions from X ray bright points which appear always separated on the poles (4.56, 4.68). This electrostatically attracted positive matter has also no collisions, but it has recombination light, and therefore, it is visible as "polar filaments" during the eclipse (4.56) or in EUV (1.10, 4.10). These filaments makes the wind and the electric field indirectly visible similar to aluminium slices fluids or air (4.30). These positive filaments are no components of the negative wind. Their "temperature" of 1.5 MK (table 4.8) is not the "temperature" of the wind. They are also no "somehow transformed" magnetic force-lines. The "polar magnetic force-lines" were not found by Ulysses.

Here again, the energy of the windprotons (M) corresponds to 24 MK and not 1.5 MK or 2 MK (M.01). But, the stellar wind is no moving gas and its motion energy is not transformed to heat.

http://www.the-electric-universe.info/S ... n_sun.html
On the Windhexe: ''An engineer could not have invented this,'' Winsness says. ''As an engineer, you don't try anything that's theoretically impossible.''

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Max Photon
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Wikipedia > P/2013 P5

Post by Max Photon » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:12 am

It appears our cometary asteroid has become a star.

Wikipedia > P/2013 P5

And while I'm at it...

Wikipedia > 596 Scheila
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Sparky
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by Sparky » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:46 am

Combining this guy, Dr. Körtvélyessy and Mathis may answer a few questions.

Dr. L. Körtvélyessy appears to accept and use the adhoc fantasies of conventional astrophysics, black holes, neutron stars, expanding universe, etc., etc.... :?

Airman seems to buckle under simple questions... the only kind that I have.. :oops:

Miles needs to answer how Cphoton can position itself, using "up and down and left and right"? His equations may work, but his explanations are absurd: "Turn the photon upside down!'" :roll:
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Max Photon
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... and shake vigorously.

Post by Max Photon » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:36 am

Sparky wrote:Miles needs to answer how Cphoton can position itself, using "up and down and left and right"? His equations may work, but his explanations are absurd: "Turn the photon upside down!'" :roll:
Not without my signed consent, thank you. :mrgreen:

Okay, maybe my clarion call for a return to good old Maxwell and dynamic double layers and all that good stuff is not such a bad idea after all.

Let's give div and curl a whirl.

Let's keep it simple. Like me.
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Chromium6
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by Chromium6 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:39 am

Sparky wrote:
Combining this guy, Dr. Körtvélyessy and Mathis may answer a few questions.

Dr. L. Körtvélyessy appears to accept and use the adhoc fantasies of conventional astrophysics, black holes, neutron stars, expanding universe, etc., etc.... :?
That's actually very funny Sparky. Mathis said the exact same thing in a private email about Körtvélyessy. :)

Körtvélyessy is working in an older framework of astrophysics but I think he found an explanation for the Sun that covers the bases so to speak. I don't mean to disregard other Solar models like Charles Chandler's but the thermo-element explanation accounts for the sheer amount of mass movement from the Sun. Also, it explains why all life didn't get killed by it in an unexpected massive Solar outburst at some point.

Looks like Carl Sagan has a book plug here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudophysics
On the Windhexe: ''An engineer could not have invented this,'' Winsness says. ''As an engineer, you don't try anything that's theoretically impossible.''

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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by Sparky » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:18 pm

--models like Charles Chandler's but the thermo-element explanation accounts for the sheer amount of mass movement from the Sun.
That is the first reading for me.....I like CC's model....but I am nowhere near qualified to evaluate the thermo-element model, so I would like CC's opinion of it.... :?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

LongtimeAirman
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by LongtimeAirman » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Chromium6, Thanks for the recommendation! I didn't know anything about Dr. L. Körtvélyessy, or his work, i.e. Filaments as a 5th state of matter. It is clear that there's much to learn. It's sad that we seem to need to pick sides.

I just wanted to close a protocol loop by informing anyone interested that I was moving to different topic. http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 879#p89879, Sparky's Transmission Lines. I would like to answer his questions to his satisfaction.

I'm not "buckled", just staggered that I'm in an adult conversation with a hero of mine. Like pln2bz said (before he left me far behind) http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... =8&t=14667. This is Transformational for me. I just don' t want to break any informal rules.

REMcB

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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by nick c » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:56 pm

LongtimeAirman wrote:I just don' t want to break any informal rules.
Welcome to the forum.

The "Electric Universe" and "Electric Universe - Planetary Science" boards are reserved for topics and discussions that relate to EU/plasma cosmology published material ...for example the holoscience site, tpod's, The Electric Sky, etc. etc.
The work of Mathis should not be the focus of a thread on those two boards, but rather should be discussed on the NIAMI board. If you wish to discuss Mathis' work you may open a thread on the NIAMI board covering a topic (concerning Mathis), but even there the discussion should in some way relate to the EU.

Forum Rules and Guidelines
For the most part, discussion is to be restricted to published materials with some relevance to Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology themes, and related scientific information. Having said that, this forum affords more latitude than most, assuming most users will allow common sense to guide them. For those who wish to discuss topics closer to the fringes, please restrict your discussions to the 'New Insights and Mad Ideas' or 'The Human Question' boards. Please note, that even on these boards discussion still must bear some relevance to EU/PC themes.
From past experience we have learned that once a thread with an EU topic has a post relating Mathis' position on the topic, it will inevitably derail the thread into a discussion/debate over the merits of Mathis' ideas. We want to avoid that on the "Electric Universe" and "Electric Universe - Planetary Science" boards.

If you or anyone has any questions or objections feel free to send me a PM, rather than post it here, which would only serve to further derail the thread.

thanks,
Nick

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Max Photon
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P/2013 P5's orbital diagram

Post by Max Photon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:33 am

Thanks Nick. And thanks to everyone for their enthusiastic posts! (Form comes from constraint, so I hope the forum constraints bring more form to our understanding of this nifty little asteroid.)

Anyway, moving forward...

Image

(Source: Pentagon Post)
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Re: P/2013 P5's orbital diagram

Post by Dotini » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:29 am

Max Photon wrote: Image

(Source: Pentagon Post)
The diagram appears to show the planets arranged as they would have been in June or July of 2013. We know that ISON has had a recent encounter with Mars. If the diagram shows P/2013 P5 in the correct relative position, we can infer ISON cannot have had a close encounter with P/2013 P5, as Mars is on the opposite side of the solar system.

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Was electricity dismissed?

Post by Max Photon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:59 am

From the Max Plank Society (no relation):

Cosmic Oddball

It's worth a read.

A few unrelated points:

1) P5 is described as an inner main belt asteroid, very close to the sun for an asteroid.

2) One aspect I don't understand is how from the mass shedding model of the tails explains how they brighten and dim over time.

3) Dotini posted this link from the Astrophysical Journal Letters about P5: http://hubblesite.org/pubinfo/pdf/2013/52/pdf.pdf

... to which I responded:
Max Photon wrote:Oh, thanks, the link does work! (I was the missing link.)

Ummm, is it just me, or is the DISCUSSION section kind of... bizarre.

The authors list four possible mechanisms for the cometary display:

1) sublimation of ice
2) electrostatic levitation of dust
3) impact
4) rotational instabilities

They then explain away #1 and #3, and say the only surviving hypothesis is #4.

Did I miss something? What about #2: electrostatic levitation of dust?
The big boys and girls put electricity on the plate as a possible explanation. Did they explain it away? Again, did I miss something?
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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by Dotini » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:15 am

IMHO, nothing has been explained, so it's open to all sorts of hypotheses. It looks like it's vigorously ejecting particles in several fairly well defined tails, so right now I'm going with the idea someone's been using it for target practice. ;)

If it were electrostatic levitation of dust, I don't think the dust would be squirting away in narrow jets; maybe more like a halo?

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Re: Asteroid P/2013 P5 -- An asteroid with six comet-like ta

Post by nick c » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:42 pm

The mass shedding as a result of fast rotation hypothesis is really bad. They must be desperate to come up with that one. Why would a rapidly rotating object throw off material in the form of cometary tails? Would it not simply be surrounded by a roughly spherical cloud of dust and debris?

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