Mars - Water

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:14 pm

Interesting. Googling "perchlorate production" (no quotes) turns up lots of references to electrolytic processes to produce it. And what does "electrolytic" tell us? Well, it springs from the term electrolyte.

An electrolyte is any substance containing free ions that behaves as an electrically conductive medium. Because they generally consist of ions in solution, electrolytes are also known as ionic solutions, but molten electrolytes and solid electrolytes are also possible. They are sometimes referred to in abbreviated jargon as lytes.

[...]

Electrolytes commonly exist as solutions of acids, bases or salts. Furthermore, some gases may act as electrolytes under conditions of high temperature or low pressure. Electrolyte solutions can also result from the dissolution of some biological (e.g. DNA, polypeptides) and synthetic polymers (e.g. polystyrene sulfonate), termed polyelectrolytes, which contain multiple charged moieties.

Electrolyte solutions are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent such as water and the individual components dissociate due to the thermodynamic interactions between solvent and solute molecules, in a process called solvation.

[...]

In simple terms, the electrolyte is a material that dissolves in water to give a solution that conducts an electric current.

Note that molten salts can be electrolytes as well. For instance, when sodium chloride is molten, the liquid conducts electricity.

An electrolyte in a solution may be described as concentrated if it has a high concentration of ions, or dilute if it has a low concentration. If a high proportion of the solute dissociates to form free ions, the electrolyte is strong; if most of the solute does not dissociate, the electrolyte is weak. The properties of electrolytes may be exploited using electrolysis to extract constituent elements and compounds contained within the solution.


Hmm...

Furthermore, some gases may act as electrolytes under conditions of high temperature or low pressure.


What's the atmospheric pressure on Mars? ;)

Just wondering. Food for thought, if nothing else.

Are they any other ways of producing perchlorates? Other than electrolysis, etc... Or is this prima fascia evidence for electrolytic / electrochemical action in Mars' soil and/or atmosphere at some point in the present on past? How many lines of evidence must lead to the same conclusions? :D

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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:51 pm

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Perchlorates discussion...

Unread postby Forum Moderator » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:12 pm

See latest thread re: discovery of perchlorates in mars soil...

(Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=900

Please discuss the new development on that thread.

Thank you,
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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:24 pm

To rephrase the question: Does all this mean that Mars' surface has been the anode / cathode in some kind of electrical process? Or, again, is there some alternate explanation for perchlorates? Let's not jump to conclusions. But... If the conclusions are justified?

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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:53 pm

An electrolyte is any substance containing free ions that behaves as an electrically conductive medium. Because they generally consist of ions in solution, electrolytes are also known as ionic solutions, but molten electrolytes and solid electrolytes are also possible. They are sometimes referred to in abbreviated jargon as lytes.

Electrolytes commonly exist as solutions of acids, bases or salts.

A knowledge of ph is the study of acid, bases and salts.

Since I have 15 years experience with clinical results and also taught organic and inorganic chemistry for five years in Ontario Colleges for registered professional healthcare courses, I am very well versed in electrolytes. Your body is an electrolyte liquid crystal tensegrity unity. Electrolytes on Mars is not a surprise to me. The universe is much more then they give it credit for at NASA. Now go grap some Gatoraide.....peferably the green kind....LOL.
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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby junglelord » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:48 am

If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby hyper.real » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:42 am

By gum, there's been no wasting time here :)

For baseline reference, here's extensive instruction on manufacturing perchlorates (from chorates, unsurprisingly), and chlorates (from chlorides):

http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/kclox_EN.html

Electricity looks a good way to go. Note that under certain conditions it leads to attrition of the electrode.

It would be useful to have the boiling and melting points of these things, and sublimation characteristics. Also what metal (ion) are we talking here - Mg, Na, K... ?
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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:35 am

Another article for the grist mill.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoen ... 80804.html

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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:19 am

hyper.real wrote:By gum, there's been no wasting time here :)

For baseline reference, here's extensive instruction on manufacturing perchlorates (from chorates, unsurprisingly), and chlorates (from chlorides):

http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/kclox_EN.html


And this even:

(Preparing perchlorates)
http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/perchlorate_EN.html

There seem to be 3 methods noted for perchlorate production, at least in this entry...

1) Electrolytic preparation
2) Preparation by thermal decomposition of chlorate
3) Preparation by chemical oxidation

So, it seems electricity is "an" explanation, but not necessarily "the" explanation. Still, it makes for an interesting case and anecdotal evidence. More study required, methinks.

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Re: Perchlorates in Mars Soil. Electrochemical / Electrolytic?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:35 pm

Another colleague online forwarded this alternate proposed avenue of perchlorate production via photo-oxidation:

(Photooxidation of chloride to perchlorate in the presence of desert soils and titanium dioxide)
http://oasys2.confex.com/acs/231nm/tech ... 945888.HTM

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Re: What Will Phoenix Discover About Mars' soil?

Unread postby egonaut » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:40 am

For those following the anomalies, here is one to pique your thoughts...

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/09_04_pr.php


The spike conductivity probe was of major interest to me because I was expecting anomalous fluctuations of soil conductivity correlating with planetary orbital positioning with an eye towards any Earth-Moon system resonance. This was based on the "clumpiness" issue centered on the scooped soil samples.

So the report above concerning soil conductivity tests over time was a surprise to me also, but the fluctuations of conductivity are occurring -- not in the soil evidently, but in the atmosphere. The science team attributes this fluctuation to variation in water vapor over the course of a Martian nocturnal period; according to practice this increased water vapor should show up in the surface soil and be detected as an increase in soil conductivity. The research team finds it "puzzling" that no such change in soil conductivity has been detected after several samplings.

The question that concerns me is the fluctuation in relative humidity from near-zero to near-100% during the day-night cycle -- how this data is gathered is of interest since it uses the same instrument. It appears that the spike probe is used to measure both atmospheric and soil conductivity which is attributed to the presence of water vapor. The readings of near-100% relative humidity approach the saturation point which on Earth usually translates into fog or rain. Obviously, the tenuous Martian atmosphere is more easily saturated without producing precipitation, but the research team was certain that some soil adhesion was an inevitability and it was not detected, hence the puzzlement.

It will be interesting to see how the research team resolves this anomaly. From an EU perspective, anomalous surface or atmospheric conductivity readings are of interest because, quite frankly, we do not expect the experiments designed to confirm the conventional conception of planetary history to produce evidence that matches that conception. Using the information from the press release, I have to ask if the near-100% relative humidity readings are actually measuring water vapor content of the atmosphere, or is there another explanation for the readings?

The Mars Phoenix mission has revealed several nagging anomalies which, fortunately, has met extended funding because of the trumpeted success of its mission goal -- finding "water on Mars".

Like the defunct Gravity Probe-B, the Mars Phoenix mission has advertised itself as an open window on the scientific process:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/08_05_pr.php

What this means is that if the experimental data does not match theory, we should get to see how the anomalous data is handled for public consumption.
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Martian soil thoroughly, perplexingly dry!

Unread postby MGmirkin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:22 pm

(Spiky Probe On Phoenix Raises Vapor Quandary)
http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Spiky_ ... y_999.html

A fork-like conductivity probe has sensed humidity rising and falling beside NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, but when stuck into the ground, its measurements so far indicate soil that is thoroughly and perplexingly dry.

[...]

By gauging how electricity moves through the soil from one prong to another, the probe can detect films of water barely more than one molecule thick.

[...]

Preliminary results from the latest insertion of the probe's four needles into the ground, on Wednesday and Thursday, match results from the three similar insertions in the three months since landing.

"All the measurements we've made so far are consistent with extremely dry soil," Zent said. "There are no indications of thin films of moisture, and this is puzzling."

[...]

The Phoenix team is laying plans for a variation on the experiment of inserting the conductivity probe into the soil. The four successful insertions so far have all been into an undisturbed soil surface. The planned variation is to scoop away some soil first, so the inserted needles will reach closer to the subsurface ice layer.

"There should be some amount of unfrozen water attached to the surface of soil particles above the ice," Zent said. "It may be too little to detect, but we haven't inished looking yet."


Heck of a backpedal from declarations of "finding water." Apparently the device used for determining if there's any water in the soil (via temperature & conductivity) shows the soil's more-or-less bone dry... Perplexing, no? Considering their crowing claims of having discovered water... Then their announcements that, "Wait no, we've got perchlorates! Not so much on the water thing..."

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Re: What Will Phoenix Discover About Mars' soil?

Unread postby redeye » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:33 pm

For those following the anomalies, here is one to pique your thoughts...


I was looking at these results earlier, and....?????!!!!

I expected Mars to be a dust ball and, unlike Earth where the charge gradient between surface and space is mediated by water, that Martian dust would be the most important element, moving charge and shaping the landscape as a result. Dahlenaz's experiments with CRT screens would be a close analogy. I was shocked when they found water, but they blasted samples in ovens, so the results should be pretty unambiguous.

The surface of Mars appears to be a double layer, a layer of water ice covered by a layer of friable Martian soil. Phoenix has breached this double layer whilst digging into it, and probably upon landing as well, this would make the entire probe a conductor. Perhaps the charge gradient is so severe that it is producing this effect without the charge carrying medium of water vapour that you would find on Earth? Or perhaps Phoenix's disruption of the surface is allowing water to be released into the atmosphere of Mars by the process of charge equalization?

It's all very intriguing.

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Re: What Will Phoenix Discover About Mars' soil?

Unread postby redeye » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:59 pm

Heck of a backpedal from declarations of "finding water." Apparently the device used for determining if there's any water in the soil (via temperature & conductivity) shows the soil's more-or-less bone dry... Perplexing, no? Considering their crowing claims of having discovered water... Then their announcements that, "Wait no, we've got perchlorates! Not so much on the water thing..."


You snuck in there before I had finished, I was taking a bit of time to read my post before I submitted it this time :oops:

That spikey thing on Phoenix (surely it should be Pheonix...whatever happened to Pheonix...I kind of miss him) looks like the thing you use to check for damp in a wall. It's a conductivity tester essentially, measuring the flow of charge....Um....so is rising damp through capillarity an electrical phenomenon????

This whole thing is like a giant jigsaw puzzle in my head, I'm sure the pieces fit together, but how?

I'm scoobied.

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Re: "Behind the Water Ice Decision"

Unread postby trevbus » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:54 pm

Solar wrote:Found this on a Phoenix Mission blog

The next thing I did was take what's called a multispectral spot...

When we took the spot on the white stuff, it was very similar to the spectrum of water. It was off the charts in the blue part of the spectrum. This was even better evidence of the white stuff being water ice...

Behind the Water Ice Decision
by Keri Bean


Is a spectral result like this indicative of an electrical discharge? Is the "bright white stuff" which "sublimates" actually an electric glow which runs out of charge after a few hours? We saw bright patches like this in the Deep Impact images. Would removing soil in a dry non-conductive environment be like removing an insulating layer?
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