Mars - Water

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:38 am

Nereidum Montes helps unlock Mars' glacial past
Image
Extensive dendritic drainage patterns, seen towards the north (lower right side) of the first and topographic images, were formed when liquid water drained into deeper regions within the area.

http://phys.org/news/2012-11-nereidum-m ... l.html#jCp
They assume water flows, I say ion/electron flows. If plasma behaves like a fluid, how do they tell the difference?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:10 pm

Inverted stream channels are of great interest to scientists who study Mars because satellites have observed similar features on the Red Planet—a clue that liquid water may once have been abundant there. The inverted channels in the San Rafael Swell are of particular interest because geologists have unearthed spherical mineral deposits on the western edge of the Kissing Camel Ridge that could have only formed in the presence of liquid water in the subsurface. The Mars rover Opportunity found similar spheres—dubbed Martian “blueberries”—strewn across the surface near its landing site in 2004. Scientists affiliated with NASA Ames Research Center and the Mars Society Australia authored a study in 2011 that described the similarities in size and shape of the spheres found in the San Rafael Swell and on Mars.


Image


http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/v ... c=eoa-iotd
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby Ben D » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Hmmm,..life underground anyone?

Ancient Mars May Have Captured Enormous Floodwaters

by Staff Writers Tucson AZ (SPX) Dec 05, 2012

An international research team led by the Planetary Science Institute has found evidence that indicates that approximately 2 billion years ago enormous volumes of catastrophic floods discharges may have been captured by extensive systems of caverns on Mars, said PSI Research Scientist, J. Alexis Palmero Rodriguez.

Rodriguez and the research team came to this conclusion after studying the terminal regions of the Hebrus Valles, an outflow channel that extends approximately 250 kilometers downstream from two zones of surface collaps.

Image
The Martian outflow channels comprise some of the largest known channels in the solar system.

Although it has been proposed their discharge history may have once led to the formation of oceans, the ultimate fate and nature of the fluid discharges has remained a mystery for more than 40 years, and their excavation has been attributed to surface erosion by glaciers, debris flows, catastrophic floodwaters, and perhaps even lava flows, Rodriguez said.

The PSI-led teams' work documents the geomorphology of Hebrus Valles, a Martian terrain that is unique in that it preserves pristine landforms located at the terminal reaches of a Martian outflow channel. These generally appear highly resurfaced, or buried, at other locations in the planet.

Rodriguez and his co-authors propose in an article titled "Infiltration of Martian overflow channel floodwaters into lowland cavernous systems" published in Geophysical Research Letters that large volumes of catastrophic floodwaters, which participated in the excavation of Hebrus Valles, may have encountered their ultimate fate in vast cavernous systems.

They hypothesize that evacuated subsurface space during mud volcanism was an important process in cavern development. Mud volcanism can expel vast volumes of subsurface volatiles and sediments to the surface.

But because evacuation of subsurface materials generally occurs within unconsolidated sediments resulting caverns are transient and mechanically highly unstable.

However, the investigated Martian caverns appear to have developed within permafrost, which at -65 degrees Celsius (-85 degree Fahrenheit) - a typical mean annual surface temperature for the investigated latitudes - has a mechanical strength similar to that of limestone. Limestone rocks host most of the terrestrial cavern systems.

Possible cavern have been recently identified on Mars and their existence has caught much scientific and public attention because of their potential as exobiological habitats. However, their age and dimensions remain uncertain.

The discovery of vast caverns that existed in ancient periods of Mars shows that these habitats may have in fact existed during billions of years of the planet's history, Rodriguez said.

PSI Senior Scientist Mary Bourke and Research Scientist Daniel C. Berman are co-authors on the paper.
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Major 'River' Found on Mars

Unread postby tayga » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Reull Vallis: A River Ran Through It

ESA’s Mars Express imaged the striking upper part of the Reull Vallis region of Mars with its high-resolution stereo camera last year.

Reull Vallis, the river-like structure in these images, is believed to have formed when running water flowed in the distant martian past, cutting a steep-sided channel through the Promethei Terra Highlands before running on towards the floor of the vast Hellas basin.

This sinuous structure, which stretches for almost 1500 km across the martian landscape, is flanked by numerous tributaries, one of which can be clearly seen cutting in to the main valley towards the upper (north) side.

...


http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space ... through_it

These guys are hilarious. Some of the explanations for features in the stereo images don't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Such as shame ESA don't allow comments on their articles.
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Re: Major 'River' Found on Mars

Unread postby 303vegas » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:29 am

They show us a tiny little snapshot with no visual context and make up a story about it. Residue filled impact craters? Looks more like they were carved out of the mountains.
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Re: Major 'River' Found on Mars

Unread postby CTJG 1986 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:40 am

The second image provided of the "computer-generated perspective view" seems like it may have been purposefully tampered with in regards to the blurring/contrast issues that make the scalloped edges of the main channel fade away.

This is the image I refer to - http://spaceinimages.esa.int/Images/201 ... ll_Vallis2

The scalloped edges are still visible to those that know that they are there by the shadows they cast on the far side, but the actual features seem to have been purposefully blurred out, even on the high-res image.

I know it wouldn't be the first time they manipulated data and images to support their views but this seems like the most blatant case of it I have personally seen.

No mention of the rather prominent scalloped features in the article discussing such physical/geological features and combined with the images being unclear on those features is just not a coincidence in my view.

Their glaciation and water erosion models don't adequately account for such scalloping so they just blur it out and pretend it doesn't exist, fairly typical these days.

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Re: Major 'River' Found on Mars

Unread postby tayga » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:31 am

I hadn't looked that images that closely, Jonny, but I think you're right. The wall of the canyon looks very blurred compared to the floor, for example, where a lot of detail is visible.
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

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Re: Major 'River' Found on Mars

Unread postby nick c » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:03 am

This is simply just another example of a sinuous rille, a feature which is common on many rocky celestial bodies from asteroids, to moons, and planets, etc. (If water ever flowed through it, it is only because the formation provided a convenient path. But I would speculate that if bodies of water ever existed on Mars, they probably disappeared in the same set of catastrophes that created the rille.)
Electric Discharge Erosion Rilles

also:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm#Rilles
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Hephaestus Fossae on Mars

Unread postby bdw000 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:41 pm

Don't remember seeing this pic here before (search found nothing):

http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/space-images/mars/20130613_Hephaestus.html

It's easy to see how most people see water here. I am no expert but I see some standard electrical features.

One feature I don't remember seeing explained electrically is the "dried, cracked mud" features at the top of the image. It even looks like water traveled down at least one channel and disappeared into a hole in one of the cracks. Not saying that's what it is, just what it looks like. Are there any electrical explanations for this appearance?
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Re: Hephaestus Fossae on Mars

Unread postby Metryq » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:28 am

The three biggest craters in the image certainly match the descriptions of electric discharge machining, but those channels don't have the distinctive Lictenberg pattern. They look like the effects of flowing liquid. Mars is said to have a permafrost layer; could an EDM event have temporarily caused a flow of water? I understand that Mars, as it is now, would not sustain liquid water. But how long could water last before flashing into vapor in the thin atmosphere? Then again, who's to say the atmosphere was as thin then as it is now? Maybe some catastrophic event burned away a heavier atmosphere at the same time as it scarred the surface.

Considering the scale, I would not call the patterns in the upper portion of the image "dried, cracked mud." The light source is from the upper left, and those channels are rounded and vary in width and depth. The cracks in dried mud are typically straight-edged and angular as the material shrinks into smaller cells or zones.

A time machine would be so convenient, but there'll be no bending of space on this forum.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the taper of the "islands" in the "flow" patterns, they all appear to run from the lower right of the picture to the upper left, rather than away from the big crater. Thus, it would appear that some liquid flowed through the area before the big crater was formed.

Maybe the Atlanteans had industrial cities on those rivers, which were blasted out of existence by the big lightning gun from orbit. :shock:
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Re: Hephaestus Fossae on Mars

Unread postby Steve Smith » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:33 am

You're just looking at the structures from too far away. Those narrow channels are electrical in nature. What I suggest is going to the MRO site and looking at the high resolution images of the trenches, in particular. They have steep walls, scalloped edges; there are craters on their rims; they begin and end abruptly; there are narrow tracks running along the bottoms, with "fish skeleton" structures perpendicular to the channel. Also, the trenches are often a chain of craters.

Context is always important: a water feature can't exist in context with electric arcs capable of cutting trenches hundreds of kilometers long and a kilometer deep.
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:49 pm

Tonopah
Image
Researchers from the Tokyo Institute of Technology, the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston, the Carnegie Institution for Science in Washington and NASA’s Astromaterials Research and Exploration Science Division, located at the agency’s Johnson Space Center in Houston, studied three Martian meteorites.

The samples revealed water comprised of hydrogen atoms that have a ratio of isotopes distinct from that found in water in the Red Planet’s mantle and current atmosphere. Isotopes are atoms of the same element with differing numbers of neutrons.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... marswater/
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:21 pm

Here is an image I found on another web site that was being used to prove the existence of flowing water on Mars. Today it is not there. Luckily I had saved a copy and put in on my site. The image originally was 2 NASA images, each of which might suggest water flow when viewed separately. Here they have been stitched together, and enlarged I think shows the mechanical impossibility of it being a water flow. Electric wind I'd say. 2.7 meg file.
http://www3.telus.net/myworld/marswater.jpg
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby Ben D » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:53 pm

Thanks Gary...very convincing evidence imho...of the three being the result of liquid flow...i do not see why you think otherwise?
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Re: Mars - Water

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:18 am

The eye of the beholder eh? When I see that image, I do not see water having flowed through the edge and running down, I see an ion wind flow from above and below to the edge. Electrical activity is highest at sharp edges, and the electrical fragmentation will produce the finest particles where there is the greatest activity.
Even the standard model geologists have considered electrical fields as part of desert geomorphology as in "The electrical double layer as a possible factor in desert weathering."
Even abrasion by wind born particles is not really correct, as at the atomic level, no two things have ever touched, the coulomb repulsion is too great, so a sand grain approaching a rock is going to create a tiny discharge at close range, and it is that and not physical contact that erodes a surface, or reduces grain size.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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