Mars - Water

[Corona]

The rounded shape of some stones in the conglomerate indicates long-distance transport from above the rim,

Thet have found pebbles, and presume they were rounded by erosion in stream flows, but that is based on how they think pebbles are formed on Earth. If the Martian 'river bed' is rather an electrically excavated feature, and the pebbles are formed by way of electrical forces, then it is time to review the method of the formation of the pebbles in Earthly river beds. And I am confident I have the evidence to show such a process. The rounding by erosion model is in serious error, as is most of accepted Earth geology, and now they are going to try and apply a flawed model to Mars' geology.
http://phys.org/news/2012-09-curiosity- ... e.html#jCp

That might be so, but I think that one should be prudent when starting to explain away every feature as a result of electricity. After all, the last time I remember being in a river bed or at a beach the stones were round. Surely, this is a result from water erosion... I woudn`t quite go so far and attribute these common features to electricity. Occams razor is still the best when it comes to these elaborate explanations. However, if you do find more evidence to the contrary I`m all ears.

[starbiter]

I see round rocks and boulders on the tops of mountains. The boulders are without flat sides. They don't seem to be broken off of anything. Boulders probably don't roll up the mountains. The boulders seem to have fallen from the sky. The last sentence is insane. But people from around the world describe a time when rocks and boulders fell from the sky.

Many mountains are made of conglomerate. Dust, sand, gravel, rocks, and boulders as described in legend and myth. The images from Mars remind me of formations all over the western US. Dunes made of dust and round rocks. The formation on Mars has the left side removed. It's missing. The process could have been electrical, or not. The matrix of the formation may have been lithified. If i go there i'll check. The matrix of the formations on Earth seems to have been converted to weathered granite in some cases.

The image below shows the conglomerate layers. The dark grey layers are more zapped. The matrix is weathered granite according to a geology professor.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP5 ... hYWEz/edit

michael

[GaryN]

@Corona

That might be so, but I think that one should be prudent when starting to explain away every feature as a result of electricity.

The Thunderbolts site got me started on seeing electrical as opposed to mechanical forces at play in Earths surface features. Maybe I've swung too far to the electrical side and may have to back off some. But I doubt it.

After all, the last time I remember being in a river bed or at a beach the stones were round. Surely, this is a result from water erosion...

If you believe the rocks have been tumbling down streams for very long periods, or that the beach pebbles were pushed long distances by glaciers, or worn round by constant motion on the beaches, then it would be reasonable to assume tumbling and erosion rounded them. When I see pebbles/ rounded rock at the head waters of a river or creek, then there has been no tumbling. Erosion rates at the bed of a water flow that is laminar are zero, as the water flow at the bedrock/water interface is zero, as it is at the banks. (I suspect this applies to glacier mechanics too) This is where the rebound theory for Vancouver Island comes into play, as the rounded rocks found at higher elevations must have been ocean bed material that had been pushed down the coast and rounded by glaciers, and then been lifted up when the kilometres of ice melted and the island rose up.
When I find pebbles partially formed in crevices where melting and sculpting of the bedrock are evident, or large rounded rocks still attached to the bedrock, even at the bottom of potholes, I have to question the tumbling model. The pebbles attached to bedrock are of rock types that are assumed to have come from outcrops of that rock type found hundreds of miles further north, but how do they get to be welded to granite or basalt in a local river channel? I'd like to see a close-up of the pebbles in the Martian conglomerate, perhaps it would be possible to find rock types for which there are no known outcrops anywhere near, or anywhere on Mars at all?
This is the highest resolution Curiosity image I can find, I was hoping for much better, as it is not possible to tell from this shot. I thought they had macro capability on the rover.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA16189.jpg

I woudn`t quite go so far and attribute these common features to electricity. Occams razor is still the best when it comes to these elaborate explanations. However, if you do find more evidence to the contrary I`m all ears.

What kind of evidence are you willing to accept as proof? That conglomerates can be formed in pulsed electric fields is known, that rock can also be shattered or disaggregated by pulsed electric fields is also known. One comment on the Martian stream bed was that it looked like someone had taken a jackhammer to it, but I think electrical energies would be more likely.

[nick c]

TPOD on the subject:

Frost and Brimstone
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Water on Mars? by Wal Thornhill (Thoth, Vol. VI, #5; Aug.30, 2002)
http://othergroup.net/thoth/thovi-05.txt

So what can be said of water on Mars in its earlier history? In
the real story of Mars, the god of war, its pre-battle surface
environment was likely to have been much more benign and Earth-
like than it is today. On that basis I predict there was liquid
water on the surface of Mars within the time of modern homo
sapiens and that there is a good chance of finding fossils of
complex life forms on Mars.

Note that while the EU acknowledges the possibility that Mars may have had water and life in the recent past, the planet was subsequently devastated in a series of enormous planetary catastrophes. Most of the surface features that we see today were probably formed in enormous electrical discharges, pretty much obliterating the previous surface.

[starbiter]

TPOD on the subject:

Frost and Brimstone
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Water on Mars? by Wal Thornhill (Thoth, Vol. VI, #5; Aug.30, 2002)
http://othergroup.net/thoth/thovi-05.txt

So what can be said of water on Mars in its earlier history? In
the real story of Mars, the god of war, its pre-battle surface
environment was likely to have been much more benign and Earth-
like than it is today. On that basis I predict there was liquid
water on the surface of Mars within the time of modern homo
sapiens and that there is a good chance of finding fossils of
complex life forms on Mars.

Note that while the EU acknowledges the possibility that Mars may have had water and life in the recent past, the planet was subsequently devastated in a series of enormous planetary catastrophes. Most of the surface features that we see today were probably formed in enormous electrical discharges, pretty much obliterating the previous surface.

Hello Nick,

I wouldn't be surprised if Mars once had liquid water on it's surface. But roundish rocks aren't always the result of hydrology from what i see.

michael

[Corona]

When I see pebbles/ rounded rock at the head waters of a river or creek, then there has been no tumbling.

I`m not an expert on this, but as far as I know rivers aren`t static. They change over time, both in terms of the flow bed and the quantity of water flowing in them. If there is currently minimal flow in a head water it doesn`t mean that it`s always been like this. In fact, it`s very likely that there were times of drought and floods over thousands of years, whereas in the time of heavy rainfall the flow bed would have been impacted significantly. It`s probably impossible to date a river and therefore tell how old it is or be certain that the stones at a site have been unmoved for a certain amount of time and I guess that complicates things a bit. If one could narrow down these variables, I guess one could argue that there might not have been enough time for the slow (but compared to other erosion forms relatively fast) fluvial erosion to take place to round pebbles.

Erosion rates at the bed of a water flow that is laminar are zero, as the water flow at the bedrock/water interface is zero, as it is at the banks. (I suspect this applies to glacier mechanics too)

again, I would argue that a river bed isn`t static ( e.g., seasonal changes, annual changes; flooding etc. )

This is the highest resolution Curiosity image I can find, I was hoping for much better, as it is not possible to tell from this shot. I thought they had macro capability on the rover.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA16189.jpg

They keep the best stuff for themselves

What kind of evidence are you willing to accept as proof? That conglomerates can be formed in pulsed electric fields is known, that rock can also be shattered or disaggregated by pulsed electric fields is also known. One comment on the Martian stream bed was that it looked like someone had taken a jackhammer to it, but I think electrical energies would be more likely.

That would be proof enough for me if there wouldn`t be already a different theory explaining it quite well and simple enough. Of course, mars is a completely different story. We can be fairly certain that water was once present there, but does normal erosion (as defined in a geology textbook) account for all of what we see? Probably not. In fact, I`m quite convinced of large parts of the EU theory, but it`s a bit too simple to point towards an electric explanation to everythign we see now. We should take on a balanced view point.

[GaryN]

@Corona

That would be proof enough for me if there wouldn`t be already a different theory explaining it quite well and simple enough.

River formation rates or dating are far from simple. I was looking into the New River Gorge geology, and the uncertainty is well demonstrated.

These five caluclations produce ages of 320, 225, 65, 10, and 3 million years. This points out our inability to date the New River. Furthermore, the five calculations make assumptions that may or may not be valid. To calculate the "age" of the New River requires a method based on facts that can be applied to all the rivers of the world. Then, and only then, can we assign the New River to its proper place, be it the 2nd oldest, 22nd oldest, or 102nd oldest river in the world.

http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/geology/geoles01.htm
Looking on Google Maps at the area, there appears, to my eye anyway, to be lots of evidence for electrical activity, many of the lakes have that fractal appearance. There are a couple of lakes with dams, and those in particular show that fractal look from water in the dam backing up into the valleys and making the pattern more pronounced. Anyway, it makes me wonder if all their proposed dates might be mere speculation, and the true age only in the thousands of years range and not millions.

[starbiter]

Hello Gary,

The New River is really something. The headwaters are on the map below.

http://goo.gl/maps/lxiK7

It runs through the mountains of the Appalachian chain. I believe much of the rock is granite. It would take millions of years to erode the ridges. The water should have gone around the ridges if it followed the path of least resistance. I propose the mountains grew around the drainage. The drainage/river prevented growth by washing away the incoming dusty material. Then it was zapped into rock.

http://goo.gl/maps/jgMCJ

The Gorge area seems to be sediment. The gorge would have been cut when the sediments were fresh and soft, as the waters were pulled back to the equator.

http://goo.gl/maps/0lyJy

The area to the W of the gorge has ridges, like dunes. The area around the gorge doesn't have dune like ridges. I believe it was sloshed. It would be interesting to see if the gorge has horizontal strata, as the sedimentology videos would suggest. Wiki describes the area as sediments and shale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_ ... onal_River

[...]

Geologic features
Flowing water is the creative force shaping the geologic features of the New River Gorge as the river continues to sculpt the longest and deepest river gorge in the Appalachian Mountains. On display in the gorge one can find a variety of unique geologic features and processes that exemplify the geology of the Appalachian Plateau, including the exposure of over 1,000 feet (300 m) of sandstone and shale, house-sized boulders scattered from rim to river, plant and invertebrate fossils, and steep channel drop-offs. The river has exposed four seams of coal, considered among the best bituminous coal in the world. The smokeless New River coal once fed the boilers of the nation's trains, factories, fleets and power plants, and its coke fueled the nation's iron furnaces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cliff ... WV_USA.JPG The top layer might be carbonate.

http://goo.gl/maps/SBQiB

Just one persons opinion.

Thanks for sharing this.

michael

[starbiter]

Getting back to water on Mars. When i see an image from Mars like the one below then it will be clear there was a slosh that was full of sediment.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP5 ... iZmM5/edit

There might have been water without a large current/flow. Then horizontal strata might not be produced. But the horizontal pattern is not subtle. It screams.

[viscount aero]

NASA Mars Rover Opportunity Reveals Geological Mystery
Pasadena CA (JPL) Sep 17, 2012

Spherical objects concentrated at an outcrop Opportunity reached last week differ in several ways from iron-rich spherules nicknamed "blueberries" the rover found at its landing site in early 2004 and at many other locations to date.

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/NASA_M ... y_999.html

excerpt:

"The Martian blueberries found elsewhere by Opportunity are concretions formed by action of mineral-laden water inside rocks, evidence of a wet environment on early Mars.

Concretions result when minerals precipitate out of water to become hard masses inside sedimentary rocks. Many of the Kirkwood spheres are broken and eroded by the wind. Where wind has partially etched them away, a concentric structure is evident.

Opportunity used the microscopic imagern its arm to look closely at Kirkwood. Researchers checked the spheres' composition by using an instrument called the Alpha Particle X-Ray Spectrometer on Opportunity's arm.

"They seem to be crunchy on the outside, and softer in the middle," Squyres said. "They are different in concentration. They are different in structure. They are different in composition. They are different in distribution. So, we have a wonderful geological puzzle in front of us. We have multiple working hypotheses, and we have no favorite hypothesis at this time. It's going to take a while to work this out, so the thing to do now is keep an open mind and let the rocks do the talking."

Just past Kirkwood lies another science target area for Opportunity. The location is an extensive pale-toned outcrop in an area of Cape York where observations from orbit have detected signs of clay minerals."

[starbiter]

The map below shows the linkage between drainage and canyons. The canyons appear to stop when the drainage stops. The tops of hills.

http://goo.gl/maps/EP6Ok

If these canyons were the result of a Lichtenberg event the canyons shouldn't be affected by hydrology. The canyons should go up and over small hills. They don't.

To my deluded mind the area was sloshed from the equator by a sediment rich flood. The flood covered the area with an ocean. When the Earth began to rotate in the opposite direction the water was pulled back uphill to the equator by centrifugal force. When the water level dropped below the land, great floods were produced. The fast moving water would fill the canyons from edge to edge. The rivers and streams we see today could never erode the canyons i see in the field. There isn't enough drainage unless an ocean is being returned to the equator, as would be expected in a Worlds in Collision scenario.

There are areas on Mars that are similar, but not matching.

http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=21.6165 ... -80.068359

Valles Marineris is similar.

http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=-5.7908 ... 261&zoom=5

It seems quite obvious that the surface of Mars was zapped even more than Earth. It appears a flow of seething plasma affected the canyons. It also appears liquid water may have been a factor.

michael

[starbiter]

Image # 7 on the link below shows what might be the remnant of a slosh.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/slides ... t-16938331

The horizontal strata are similar to what i interpret as slosh remnants on Earth.

michael

[GaryN]

So they do have macro on Curiosity, why didn't they use it on the 'river bed' rocks?

Camera on Curiosity's arm will magnify clues in rocks

http://spacespin.org/article.php/101132 ... iosity-arm

I see the Earthly blueberries are thought to need microbes for their formation. Does that mean the Martian ones needed them too too?

...discovery at The University of Western Australia that microbes helped shape rare spheres of iron-oxide on Earth may aid the newly landed Curiosity Rover in its search for the first verifiable signs of extra-terrestrial life in similar rocks on Mars.

http://phys.org/news/2012-09-martian-bl ... e.html#jCp

[kiwi]

A new review of the latest bright material suggested it is actually a Mars phenomenon, and not litter from Curiosity. With that analysis in hand, rover scientists cleared Curiosity to take a third scoopful of Mars dirt.

"Confidence for going ahead with the third scooping was based on new assessment that other bright particles in the area are native Martian material," NASA officials said. "One factor in that consideration is seeing some bright particles embedded in clods of Martian soil."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... Lid=223186

[GaryN]

I find it very curious that Curiosity did not stop and do some serious research on the 'river bed'. A probe sent to look for signs of possible past life, but they didn't use the macro facilities to look closer. "Nothing to see here, move along now"
I can only guess that something out of keeping with the accepted surface processes or materials would have been seen, like deep, ultra-high pressure metamorphic rock with no known source? "Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice...