Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:59 pm

nick c wrote:
fosborn wrote:wind: a result of an atmosphere equalizing, unequal pressures. Mechanical.

Electricity; electrical field or force, non mechanical, a field.



The distinction is not necessarily that clear-cut. There is such a thing as an "electrical wind."

Electrical Wind[/quote]

Thanks for moving us along nick c. (pun) :)

CoronaFan.png

https://www.ee.washington.edu/research/ ... ronics.pdf
[/Figure 1 illustrates the operation of this device.
Gas molecules surrounding the corona electrode are
ionized by the high intensity electric field at the tip,
forming an ion stream between the corona and
collector electrodes, thus creating airflow


Something cool I didn't know, which seems to downgrade, my speculation that dust devils may have had little to do with covering the landing site.

Electrical Phenomena on the Moon and
Mars
At the smallest scales,
warm-cored, convective vortices known as dust devils range from 100 m – 1 km in
width, 10-15 km in height, and occur daily at almost all locations throughout the planet....

Using a combination of modeled and experimentally derived profiles of the atmosphere
and electron density for Mars, the electrical conductivity of the atmosphere has
been estimated to be ~10-12 S/m [33], several orders of magnitude higher than on Earth.
Thus from Earth to Mars, characteristictimescales for charge dissipation decreases from
minutes to seconds
.

http://www.electrostatics.org/images/ES ... Delory.pdf
So the second part is so interesting. I wonder if this much faster dissipation times would reduce the strength of double layers building up and would reduce their effect?

Also in the same article;

however the role of dissipative processes in dust charging
events remains highly uncertain, and hence whether or not charge separation can be
maintained over sufficient temporal and spatial scales for lightning to be generated on
Mars remains a mystery. Adding to this mystery is the continual controversy as to what
process initiates terrestrial lightning, since it has become clear that electric fields in thunderstorms
usually achieveonly a fraction of the magnitude necessary to meet traditional
breakdown criteria


9. Electrical Weather
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/elect ... erse16.htm

This gives affirmation of where Wal is coming from;

Most people are unaware that we have no understanding of how lightning is created in clouds. The simplest answer is that lightning is not generated there at all. Clouds merely form a convenient path to Earth for electricity originating in space
[/quote]

To date, there have been no direct detections of what could be considered Martian
lightning.quote]http://www.electrostatics.org/images/ESA2010_A1_Delory.pdf


So it seems the much faster dissipation rate of double layers may account for a lack of lightening? Or could this be evidence there is little double layer influence on the global scale of Mars?
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby Bob Weber » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:49 pm

F Osborn, my prior posts addressed the issue of where and how Mars' space environment became electrified & caused the dust plume events as depicted in the Mars Plumes Space News video, in case you weren't clear on the context of those posts.

As Wal Thornhill pointed out in the Electrical Weather section you quoted, "Electric discharges from space cause Mars’ huge dust devils and planet-wide dust storms."

My posts gave direct evidence and mechanisms for such solar-induced electrification and discharges. Thank you.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby StefanR » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:49 am

Judging from the following article there seems to be several factors to take account of in relation
to dust and wind:

Approach: The Mars Exploration Rover Spirit has experienced over 2000 martian days (sols) of interaction with the martian dust cycle. Much dust accumulated on the vehicle, but there have also been three major “cleaning events” when significant amounts of dust were removed. Pancam dust monitoring observations acquired every ~10 sols throughout the mission allowed visual inspection of the amount of dust collecting on a portion of the solar array and on the Pancam and Mini-TES calibration targets. Pancam multispectral data reveal three classes of airborne dust adhering to the capture and filter magnets: 1) “bright” capture magnet dust 2) “dark” capture magnet dust, and 3) filter magnet dust. Microscopic Imager (MI) images of the capture and filter magnets and a portion of the solar array aid in interpretation of behavior and morphology of the dust deposits. Results: Three significant periods of “cleaning events” removed substantial amounts of dust from the rover. Each event occurred during southern hemisphere early spring and summer, and occurred later in the season of each successive Martian year. Pancam multispectral data of “bright” capture magnet dust exhibit the highest reflectance levels of the three classes. These spectra are also characterized by steep visible spectral slopes (434 to 673 nm), strong 535 nm absorptions, and are relatively featureless and convex in shape in the NIR region. “Dark” capture magnet dust has the lowest reflectance levels of the three classes, much shallower visible slopes and are much less “red” than the bright capture dust. They also have shallower 535 nm absorptions and are featureless in the NIR. They exhibit positive slopes from 900 to 1000 nm. Filter magnet dust shares spectral characteristics with the “dark” capture magnet dust, and together they represent a darker, more strongly magnetic component. Both Pancam and MI images reveal that the dust particles on the rover body cohere and form larger aggregates, measured at 100 μm to several mm. MI images of the rover magnets and body show that grains collected range from assumed (unresolved) dust size (< 4 μm) to fine sand (250 μm), and show that sand can saltate to a rover deck height of 70 cm in strong winds. Through comparisons with other data sets and previous work, we think wind speeds exceeding 20 m/s are responsible for the removal of dust during the cleaning events.
Implications: The spectral characteristics of the “bright” capture dust described here are consistent with multispectral observations of dust and bright soil elsewhere on the martian surface and support the theory that martian dust is globally mixed and deposited. This expanded data set also provides further evidence that the dust has a darker, more strongly magnetic component than typical bright dust. The large size of observed dust aggregates (≥ 100 μm) should make them easier to entrain by wind than individual dust grains, and therefore represent another process by which dust is lifted into the atmosphere. Entrainment of larger dust aggregates may represent a significant source of atmospheric dust loading wherever saltating sand is uncommon.
http://www.marsjournal.org/contents/2010/0005/files/vaughan_mars_2010_0005.pdf

Of course this is just some implications taken from the observations from the rovers, but these landers do seem the only ones to be able to provide actual in situ data.
So from this paper it seems the dust is able to be catagorized in different regimes.
Although there is a certain amount of wind at the surface level able to cover the rovers with dust, this wind is not always sufficient to remove it from the rovers/landers.
There seem to be distinct periods when dust cleaning events do take place, so there is something to be found in the seasonality where better dust elevation can take place, which might have a solar relationship.
And then, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are different regimes of wind at different altitudes, which seems quite reasonable but will be difficult to take account of due to lack of data.
Then there are the different situations of substantial magnetic fields associated with Mars surface features primarily in the southern hemisphere.
There are differences also in regional penetration of solar wind and solar wind effects to the surface, which seem
to be deeper in the northern hemisphere due to lacking distinct presence magnetic fields.
And also there is, at least my lack of understanding, how the electrical effects of discharge and equalisation manifests itself in the different than Earth's athmosphere. Although sometimes, the behavioural effects of electricity can be applied by analogy to different circumstances of environments. For instance, on Earth and other planets like-activities as sprites have been observed to occur. Could it be that higher altitude dust transportation be related to such similar kind of events?

I'm with Fosborn here that wind and electrical effects both have their effects combining in what is observed. Though I'm not at all able to see as of yet how and where which is predominant.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:31 pm

The effect of the winds of Mars
Image
As these winds travel they carve their surroundings, eroding and smoothing and gradually wearing away the planet's surface features over millions of years.


Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-06-image-effect-mars.html#jCp
Millions of years, of course. I was wondering though, with the Martian atmosphere being so thin, it would only be very small particles moving, and when they get within some small distance of their target, wouldn't the surface charges equalise, and the dust be repulsed, never actually making contact?
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Nov. 5, 2015

NASA Mission Reveals Speed of Solar Wind Stripping Martian Atmosphere


The magnetic field carried by the solar wind as it flows past Mars can generate an electric field, much as a turbine on Earth can be used to generate electricity. This electric field accelerates electrically charged gas atoms, called ions, in Mars’ upper atmosphere and shoots them into space.

MAVEN has been examining how solar wind and ultraviolet light strip gas from of the top of the planet's atmosphere. New results indicate that the loss is experienced in three different regions of the Red Planet:...


http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa- ... atmosphere
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby ThunderIdeal » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:29 am

or if you prefer the sun "spewing ions along magnetic ropes" and "atmosphere blown away by bursts of gas"....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 23171.html

the video in your nasa link portrays the atmosphere being removed in a helical fashion.

i'm not clear on the explanation of where these zones of atmospheric loss are but looking at the video EU followers may note the proximity of these zones to important geological features.
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:16 pm

~
ThunderIdeal wrote:
i'm not clear on the explanation of where these zones of atmospheric loss are...


The article mentioned this:
MAVEN has been examining how solar wind and ultraviolet light strip gas from of the top of the planet's atmosphere. New results indicate that the loss is experienced in three different regions of the Red Planet:
down the "tail," where the solar wind flows behind Mars,
above the Martian poles in a "polar plume,"
and from an extended cloud of gas surrounding Mars.

The science team determined that almost 75 percent of the escaping ions come from the tail region, and nearly 25 percent are from the plume region, with just a minor contribution from the extended cloud.
or were you thinking of some other kinds of zones ?

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa ... atmosphere
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby ThunderIdeal » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:44 pm

it may not be worth anyone's time addressing me, in fact it will probably spare me embarrassment...

but what is an extended cloud of gas surrounding mars? an odd way of referencing the upper atmosphere?

also those don't look like polar plumes to me. they look like two plumes on the sun-facing portion of mars.

anyway, somebody might be interested in this layer of magnesium and iron:

"MAVEN had previously detected the metal ion layer associated with dust from the close passage of Comet Siding Spring last October," said Jakosky. "When MAVEN did its first 'deep dip' campaign in February, and lowered the closest point of the spacecraft's orbit to around 125 kilometers (almost 78 miles) altitude, we immediately detected metal ions that still resided in the upper atmosphere. As there was no comet encounter at around that time, this must be the long-lived layer that we expect to be present."

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/rock-star-mars
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:05 pm

~
TI, you're right to point out that they got a lot of dust on Mars. Airborne, ion-borne, some mixture ?
It seems a pretty sketchy line between ionized gases and sheer EM field-entrained dielectric particles; but anyway the other news last week was ESA releasing pics of a couple hundred "auras" , taken over a few hundred orbits. Some observed from a decent angle to where they could get some idea of the altitude above martian surface, so the mix is probably complex.

Most experts agree that Mars is growing cold, i think, but if there is still some dynamism left in the core, how deep?
Could it replenish the atmosphere ?

Sp.edit...
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Re: Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Unread postby GaryN » Tue May 24, 2016 10:45 pm

Are mystery Mars plumes caused by space weather?

Mysterious high-rise clouds seen appearing suddenly in the martian atmosphere on a handful of occasions may be linked to space weather, say Mars Express scientists.

Amateur astronomers using telescopes on Earth were the first to report an unusual cloud-like plume in 2012 that topped-out high above the surface of Mars at an altitude around 250 km. The feature developed in less than 10 hours, covered an area of up to 1000 x 500 km, and remained visible for around 10 days.

The extreme altitude poses something of a problem in explaining the features: it is far higher than where typical clouds of frozen carbon dioxide and water are thought to be able to form in the atmosphere.
Mystery plume on Mars

Indeed, the high altitude corresponds to the ionosphere, where the atmosphere directly interacts with the incoming solar wind of electrically charged atomic particles.


http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space ... ce_weather
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Is this an Electrical "Dust Devil"?

Unread postby neilwilkes » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:51 am

Please tell me you all have google earth/mars, yes?
The location is on the image and will get you near enough to see it.
dust-devil.jpg


It has, naturally, been heavily touted as various items it probably isn't, but..... even if it is a dust devil, as it looks to me, how come NASA got the location & timing so right?
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Re: Is this an Electrical "Dust Devil"?

Unread postby jacmac » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:23 pm

Well......It kind a looks like a flying squirrel.
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Re: Is this an Electrical "Dust Devil"?

Unread postby D_Archer » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:00 am

Yes, very likely.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Is this an Electrical "Dust Devil"?

Unread postby jacmac » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:31 pm

neilwilkes said:
even if it is a dust devil, as it looks to me, how come NASA got the location & timing so right?

What is it you think about a dust devil that would make it difficult for NASA to get its location and timing right ?
I live in Tucson AZ; we get dust devils here all the time ?
Jack
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Re: Is this an Electrical "Dust Devil"?

Unread postby neilwilkes » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:59 am

jacmac wrote:neilwilkes said:
even if it is a dust devil, as it looks to me, how come NASA got the location & timing so right?

What is it you think about a dust devil that would make it difficult for NASA to get its location and timing right ?
I live in Tucson AZ; we get dust devils here all the time ?
Jack


It's where it is located in the shot (almost dead centre), plus it is the sole strip in that resolution in the area.
Very fortuitous, what? having the satellite in exactly the right place at exactly the right time with the framing pefrfect as well....great effort
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