Mars - Electric Atmosphere

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Mars wind effects

Unread postby bdw000 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:00 am

The following link may be interesting to those who say that the mechanical effects of wind on Mars cannot account for a lot of what occurs on Mars:

http://space.io9.com/watch-wind-and-dust-obscure-the-violent-traces-of-curio-1694398317/+cherylvis
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:29 am

But still it seems it plays a part, even if a simple wind blows;

2.2.2 Electrostatic Charge of Martian Dust Particles
Stationary surface sand and dust on Mars may be electrostatically charged due to incident UV
radiation reaching the surface. Although the total integrated UV flux over 200-400 nm is comparable
to Earth’s, shorter wavelengths contribute a larger proportion of this flux [17]. Contact charging may
also occur due to collisions between wind-blown dust particles and stationary surface particulate
matter.
There is experimental evidence that collisions due to dust motion can result in electrostatic
charging of dust particles. In the early 1970s, Eden and Vonnegut observed a glow as well as
filamentary discharges as a container with sand was shaken under Martian atmospheric conditions
[18]. Shortly after, Mills suggested that triboelectrically produced glow discharges in the Martian
atmosphere might explain the apparent absence of carbonaceous matter on the planet [19]. More
recently, we were able to observe glow discharges caused by collisions of Mars simulant dust particles
under atmospheric conditions mimicking those of Mars and showed that these discharges altered
known organics on Mars simulant dust [20].
http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/301 ... 012006.pdf
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby nick c » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:42 am

When Dust Storms Engulf Mars
How can an atmosphere only one percent as dense as Earth’s remove dust from the soil and accelerate it into massive clouds circling the planet up to 40 miles or more above the surface?
[...]
The Electric Universe identifies the dust storms on Mars as electric discharges etching the surface in the same way that, in industrial applications, electric discharge machining etches metallic surfaces.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:47 pm

up to 40 miles or more above the surface?


I wonder if it would be profitable to consider some localized effects? By the photos, I didn't see any dust devil tracks.
And not trying to push the question of what starts the wind to begin with, couldn't the Mars in a jar test, have local impact and the UV in creating localized charge separation? lifting dust for the wind to carry along ?
Maybe there is a part, as far as mechanical effects, of particle's being fluidized and traveling like an avalanche or land slide with just a little wind. I was playing around with what an online calculator for the equivalent altitude in our atmosphere of Mars surface, I think its 17 miles and a U2 spy plane can fly at that altitude (and that at earth gravity). Also parachutes do deploy in Mars atmosphere. So I don't know that the air is too thin, is a strong argument, at Mar's surface. This is just going on the apparent visual effects of the series of photos.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby kell1990 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:40 pm

"Wind" approximates air in motion. There is very little air on Mars. Therefore there can be no "wind" on Mars. (If there were sufficient air to cause wind.)

Whatever caused the movements is not related in any way to the movement of air on Mars.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby antosarai » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:06 am

kell1990 wrote:(...) there can be no "wind" on Mars. (If there were sufficient air to cause wind.)

Whatever caused the movements is not related in any way to the movement of air on Mars.

How can you argue against faith?
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:29 pm

antosarai wrote:
kell1990 wrote:(...) there can be no "wind" on Mars. (If there were sufficient air to cause wind.)

Whatever caused the movements is not related in any way to the movement of air on Mars.

How can you argue against faith?


Maybe keep priming the pump with more facts?

Mars atmospheric winds indicated by motion of the Viking landersduring parachute descent
Winds in the Martian atmosphere at altitudes from 1.5 to 3.5 km have been determined from parachute descent trajectories of the two Viking landers. Viking 2 reached equilibrium with nearly steady winds of ∼8 m/s to the southeast below 3.3 km at 1000 LT. Viking 1 winds at 1615 LT rotated clockwise with decreasing altitude but were generally to the northwest at ∼20 m/s. At 1.5 km, the Viking 1 wind direction was close to that measured by the landed anemometer at the same local time, while at the Viking 2 site, wind direction at 1.5 km was nearly opposite that near the surface. This is consistent with the fact that Viking 1 descended within a vigorously convective boundary layer, while Viking 2 at 1.5 km was above the boundary layer. Turbulent velocities in the Viking 1 boundary layer were ∼3 m/s. Mean upflow velocity was ∼1 m/s. The Viking 2 atmosphere was relatively quiescent, with orderly wind directional variation possibly suggesting the presence of waves. Comparison of the measured winds with a recent global circulation model showed little or no correspondence, probably an indication that the winds were locally controlled. The boundary layer, slope-wind model of Haberle et al. (1993), with ground slope adjusted to give best fit to these and landed meteorology data, gave roughly the wind direction and the observed magnitude within a factor of ∼2, but with opposite rotation of the wind vector with altitude. The ground slopes deduced are consistent with terrain observed in approach to the Viking 1 landing, and do not conflict with the less definitive terrain data at the Viking 2 site. The high sensitivity of winds at altitudes up to several kilometers to terrain slopes as small as a few meters per kilometer would suggest that slope winds may be widely found in the lowest few kilometers of Mars atmosphere.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 8/abstract


I made bold the ground measurement method to show physical evidence. And highlighted the locally control conclusion because of my earlier post speculating about localized conditions. Also highlighted the part about parachute descent to emphasize wind resistance.
But this discussion is so cool to me. Its a chance to become more intimate with this EU model as an object of study. But to do it in away that doesn't try to silence the ideas and passionate interest of others to investigate it also. IMO. Its just a concept I'm checking out.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby Bob Weber » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:18 pm

In response to "Baffling" Mars Plumes are Electric | Space News, March 14, 2015, here @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6m3XQalTI

The Mars dust plumes were Electric Weather Events, not really any different than those on Earth, just taller.

The Mars plumes were electrically elevated dust devils caused by a charged-up ionosphere that was caused by high solar activity from March 2 to March 14, 2012, that increased the electric field strength of Mars' ionosphere via CMEs kicked off by numerous solar flares that elevated IMF proton and electron densities. Such processes occur on Earth too.

From March 2-7, sunspot area had ballooned from 100 to 1800, and stayed higher than 500 until the 14th, driving F10.7cm solar flux up to 135 sfu/day from the 4th to the 13th, which delivered a major warm-up in the US, after following 36 days of sub-120 solar flux that averaged 108 sfu/day.

From March 4 to April 2, 2012, there were 104 C-flares, 19 M-flares, 3 X-flares, and 122 S-flares. 2012 Daily Solar Data here ftp://ftp.swpc.noaa.gov/pub/indices/old ... 12_DSD.txt.

See March 13 AR1429 (circled) here at http://www.spaceweather.com/images2012/13mar12/m7b.jpg

From sunspot AR1429, there was an X1-flare on March 5, an X5.4 on the 7th, a M6 on the 9th, a M8 on the 10th, a G2 geomagnetic storm on the 12th, a M7 on the 13th, followed by the mysterious and infamous triangular coronal hole.
Triangular CH is here at http://www.spaceweather.com/images2012/ ... _blank.jpg

Numerous CMEs followed the flaring, producing at Earth high magnitudes of the IMF, BT recorded during that period was as high as -148nT. Geomagnetic planetary index Ap was the highest of the year on March 9 at 67, when Kp reached 7. 2012 Daily Geomagnetic Data here ftp://ftp.swpc.noaa.gov/pub/indices/old ... 12_DGD.txt.

See http://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/sw ... 130026.pdf for related published research.

The June 2001 Mars plumes were caused by the same basic processes. 2001 Daily Solar Data here ftp://ftp.swpc.noaa.gov/pub/indices/old ... 01_DSD.txt

In June 2001 there were 212 C-flares, 13 M-flares, 1 X-flare, and 218 S-flares (847 S-flares June-Aug). June-Sep (121 days), there were 756 C-flares, 79 M-flares, and 2 X-flares.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:01 pm

postby Bob Weber » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:18 pm

In response to "Baffling" Mars Plumes are Electric


But what about a localized surface environment where no dust devil evidence is available? Is there a possibility of a combination of wind and electricity?
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby Bob Weber » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:11 pm

F Osborn, where there is no evidence of event(s), there is no analysis. Do you have a specific event in mind?
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:59 pm

Bob Weber wrote:F Osborn, where there is no evidence of event(s), there is no analysis. Do you have a specific event in mind?

This thread began with this event of a sequence of pictures from NASA about Martian surface material moving about, covering this landing site
http://space.io9.com/watch-wind-and-dus ... +cherylvis
by bdw000 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:00 am
The following link may be interesting to those who say that the mechanical effects of wind on Mars cannot account for a lot of what occurs on Mars:


Nick c, posted information about material being ejected as high as 40 miles;

by nick c » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:42 am

When Dust Storms Engulf Mars

How can an atmosphere only one percent as dense as Earth’s remove dust from the soil and accelerate it into massive clouds circling the planet up to 40 miles or more above the surface?
[...]
The Electric Universe identifies the dust storms on Mars as electric discharges etching the surface in the same way that, in industrial applications, electric discharge machining etches metallic surfaces.


But I thought it would be instructive to ponder the local physical activity and noted there were no dust devil tracks, so wanted to address a more specific context of bdw000 s observation and conclusion.

I thought the context of the thread pivots on the original poster's assertion.And thought it was an interesting to consider where the middle was. As appealing as EU is to me, its still fun to explore it by testing it. So I posted evidence that wind is present and has evidence for physical activity as well as the electrical.
So I listed the following real world lab experiment and hardware and its evidence on the
Martian surface.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15693&p=105160#p105082
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15693&p=105160#p105103

I guess my question is similar, what was the context of your post?
Thanks.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:53 pm

?

Fosborn wrote:
... of wind and electricity?


Fosborn, Would you explain the difference between the the two, please ?
thank you
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby Bob Weber » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:43 pm

Perhaps you are right about how these threads work, as these posts are my very first on the forum, so it's entirely possible that what I said was technically "off thread", however , if dust plumes on Mars aren't wind as well as electrical events, it's a mystery to me as to why not considering the info I supplied before and below.

X-ray and UV electromagnetic energy from solar flares actually breaks apart the bonds of various chemical compounds and free atoms in the ionosphere into ions and free electrons, charged particles that then behave electrodynamically.

The ionization creates sudden increases in the TEC (total electron count), which enhance the local electric and magnetic fields that can induce electric currents in the ground, or discharge directly, or propel charged dust particles (dust plumes), or diamagnetic water molecules (cyclogenesis) upward with rotation. On Earth, these and other geomagnetic storm-inducing processes are measured on the ground as Dst for one. See http://pluto.space.swri.edu/IMAGE/glossary/dst.html and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2612001319.

NOAA wrote this article last year about sudden ionospheric disturbances caused by solar flares, as an introduction - http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/space-weat ... tables.pdf

More here http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1504/1504.00709.pdf

Check this abstract http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 6954900161, or if you really have an interest, buy this book http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ionospheric- ... 1516803965, and mail it to me after you're done with it ;)

If that really interests you then you can join the many people around the world who as a hobby build their own SID monitor to measure solar flare disturbances from their home, like here http://www.backyardastronomy.net/sid_receiver.html

Solar flares are one source of "Electric Weather Effects".
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:22 pm

seasmith wrote:?

Fosborn wrote:
... of wind and electricity?


Fosborn, Would you explain the difference between the the two, please ?
thank you

Thanks, for the query.
wind: a result of an atmosphere equalizing, unequal pressures. Mechanical.

Electricity; electrical field or force, non mechanical, a field.
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Re: Mars wind effects

Unread postby nick c » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:17 am

fosborn wrote:wind: a result of an atmosphere equalizing, unequal pressures. Mechanical.

Electricity; electrical field or force, non mechanical, a field.

The distinction is not necessarily that clear-cut. There is such a thing as an "electrical wind."
Electrical Wind
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