Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:04 pm

Earth History
Saturn System Formation - ?
Age of Darkness
Saturn Flare - 10,000 BP
Golden Age
Saturn System Breakup - 5,000 BP
Ancient Civilization
Modern Era
* As explained in the Cardona Interview thread at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3824 Earth was initially part of the Saturn System in the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy (SDG), which is wrapped around the Milky Way and the two galaxies intersect near our present location. Star and planet formation are electrical plasma events, according to EU findings. I think Cardona said the makeup of stars in the SDG is a bit different from most stars in the local Milky Way.
* The Age of Darkness began probably shortly after the Saturn System formed. Saturn may have been a lone dwarf star, or it may have been part of another system and it may have had one or more satellite planets from the outset. That's not yet known.
* Saturn was knocked out of the SDG at some point and it moved from its former location toward the Sun in a manner like a comet. It flared occasionally when its electrical environment changed much and it sometimes ejected satellites, possibly including Earth, Mars, Venus etc. Its larger satellites followed behind it in a line, like the SL9 comet pieces did before they struck Jupiter in 1994.
* Saturn Flare - The Age of Darkness lasted until Saturn arrived at the Sun's heliopause and flared for the last time, 10,000 years ago. It possibly bounced off the heliopause several times before penetrating it. After the flare subsided Venus appeared in front of Saturn from Earth's perspective and the Sun was seen for the first time. Mars was seen not long afterward and so too was the electrical plasma column between Saturn's south pole, Venus, Mars [?] and Earth's north pole.
* The Golden Age lasted until the Saturn System broke up, when Saturn reached the asteroid belt during Saturn's slow inward spiral toward the Sun. Electrical forces caused the breakup and I think formation of some or all of the asteroid belt from Saturn's celestial disk from its last flare. The breakup occurred 5,000 years ago. Severing of the plasma column produced the Great Flood and the Ice Age, although floods and ice ages also occurred after former flare events as well.
* Red Sun - Debris remained in orbit for a few thousand years after the breakup, which made the Sun and planets look red. And many meteors struck the Earth's atmosphere and produced megalightning impacts on Earth. Ancient civilizations began mostly after the breakup and lasted about 3,000 years at most. The Modern Era began about 2,000 years ago, when the debris in orbit had greatly diminished and the Sun became bright like it is now.
* This thread is for discussing what happened about the time of the Saturn System breakup.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:12 pm

* The Saturn System broke up somewhere near Jupiter and the asteroid belts. When Earth left the warmth of Saturn's tail and the polar column, I suppose it took a few decades to reach its present orbit. The move from near Jupiter or Mars to the present orbit would have been very cold, producing an ice age. I suppose the lower latitudes would have been the only places warm enough for most people and animals during that time.
* The plasma column held a lot of ocean water from Earth, so, when it was severed, a Great Flood occurred when the column let go of some of the water.
* The column also had very strong tornadoes during the Golden Age which chewed up the ground in the Arctic. The Arctic was warm during the Golden Age and there was abundant plant and animal life. But the tornadoes were a bit erratic and gobbled up plants and animals as well as dirt near the pole. Electrical forces pulverized the matter into organic powder. When the column was severed, after the flood waters were let go, tornadoes mixed the powder with broken plants and animals and ice pellets to make frozen muck, covering much of the Arctic circle. Loess is pulverized rock, which also covers much of the area.
* The area around the Arctic Ocean must have been hit by a blast of very cold air from the upper atmosphere, when plasma column severed, because large animals and even bodies of water froze almost instantly. In order for mammoths to freeze solid without their cells bursting, they had to be flash frozen, which would have required temperatures below -175F. I'll try to post some relevant data soon.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:50 pm

The Saturn System broke up somewhere near Jupiter and the asteroid belts. When Earth left the warmth of Saturn's tail and the polar column, I suppose it took a few decades to reach its present orbit. The move from near Jupiter or Mars to the present orbit would have been very cold, producing an ice age. I suppose the lower latitudes would have been the only places warm enough for most people and animals during that time.
Lloyd


If Earth headed off in about the same direction as Saturn, then it would take some decades just to do one lap around the Sun. And so we quickly have the Earth spending too much time in extremely cold conditions. However if the Earth headed off more towards the Sun then that would mean that the Earth would follow an elliptical orbit.

To me this is a no-brainer. The Earth would not orbit closer to the Sun every orbit, that it not how it works. And the elliptical orbit explains the oscillating ice ages and the high likelihood of interactions with other planets, as I have written about before.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:29 pm

Cause of Ice Ages
* Mo, according to Cardona's findings, the last ice age is the only one that was likely due to the Earth being too far from the Sun. Before that it was always within the realm of Saturn and it only experienced ice ages after Saturn flares, when the aurora filled with dust and blocked light from Saturn in the north temperate zones. So much ocean water got tied up with the ice sheets during the Age of Darkness that the ocean levels dropped over a mile, so that much of the now submerged land was available for habitation. I believe it's entirely possible for objects to spiral in toward the Sun as Saturn apparently did for 5,000 years and as comets may do. Spacecraft are guided in a spiral fashion to get from one orbit to another, as from Earth to Mars or the reverse. So Earth could have moved from the orbit of Jupiter to its present orbit within a decade or so. It may be that Earth's encounter with the Moon is what helped stop its inward spiral.
Hydroplate Theory & Saturn Theory
* I've been reading about the hydroplate theory and I want to post a bunch of the evidence from that which supports Cardona's theory. The hydroplate theory supposes that there were underground water-filled caverns under the continents, which heated up and exploded along a seam which became the mid-Atlantic ridge, causing the continents to split apart in seafloor spreading, and where the water and rock particles etc sprayed way up into the upper atmosphere and came back down, entombing the mammoths etc in ice and muck etc. I think Brown's main inspiration for that idea was the Biblical mention of the "fountains of the great deep" as a source of the waters of the Great Flood. As I've pointed out before, the "Great Deep" was actually in the sky. Cardona says the celestial disk around Saturn looked from Earth like an ocean, so that's what it referred to. Comparative mythology shows that the ancients meant the sky when they said the Great Deep or the Ocean. Cardona also said the plasma column was the source of the waters of the Great Flood.
* There are obvious similarities between Cardona's findings and the hydroplate theory. The water and debris that froze and entombed the mammoths and other animals in both cases came from the Earth initially, then went into the sky, then came back down to Earth. I think Cardona's theory makes a much better fit with the evidence. I don't think hydroplate theory can explain how the frozen spray and muck ended up around the Arctic circle, instead of around the Atlantic Ocean. But there seems to be a lot of good evidence in the hydroplate theory, which seems to be usable for the Saturn Theory. So I want to post a bunch of it and see how well it works out.
* His online book is at http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ and the chapters that seem most useful are:
Liquefaction: The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils
The Origin of the Grand Canyon
The Origin of Limestone
Frozen Mammoths

* I'd like to see if any of Cardona's books have more info on these subjects that Brown didn't cover. But I don't expect to see any more of his at least for a spell. I only have his first book so far.
* I think I'll try to discuss the following geological aspects of the Saturn System breakup:
- The Plasma Column
- The Last Ice Age
- The Great Flood
- The Grand Canyon
- Rock Strata Formation
- Continental Drift

* There's always room for the astronomical aspects too eventually.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:36 am

I believe it's entirely possible for objects to spiral in toward the Sun as Saturn apparently did for 5,000 years and as comets may do. Spacecraft are guided in a spiral fashion to get from one orbit to another, as from Earth to Mars or the reverse. So Earth could have moved from the orbit of Jupiter to its present orbit within a decade or so. It may be that Earth's encounter with the Moon is what helped stop its inward spiral.
Lloyd


In the disordered condition of the Solar System planets would have spiraled closer or further away from the Sun due to interactions with other planets. The likely way a moon of Saturn (Earth) could have broken free is for another sizeable planet to fly past and attract Earth either electrically or gravitationally and slingshot the Earth towards the Sun, but it would still be likely to retain much of it's initial momentum which was directed perpendicular to the Sun. Once free of the gravitational influence of the other planets, the Earth would move in an elliptical orbit.

Now it would be possible for the Earth to immediately interact with a planet that was in an orbit near where Venus or Earth is now. And that would change the Earth's orbit to something near where it is now, however I think that the evidence is clear that the Earth did many elliptical laps around the sun producing the ice ages, with apologies to Dwardu and all the rest of the crew.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Saturn, the Black Sun
* Earth was part of the Saturn System until 5,000 years ago and Saturn did not start orbiting the Sun until 10,000 years ago, when the ancients first saw the Sun as a distant bright star. Before that was the Age of Darkness, when there was no Sun, except for the Black Sun, which was Saturn. In the Age of Darkness there was no plasma column visible. All that was visible in the sky was Saturn, which had a faint glow.
Spectacular Events on Earth During the Breakup
* I'm going to proceed with discussion of what happened on Earth during the Saturn System breakup for now. Here are some quotes from and my comments on the Hydroplate book at http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/. I think this is rather spectacular, as I'll describe below.
Frozen Beasts
- "The Berezovka Mammoth, [t]he most famous, accessible, and studied mammoth, is a 50-year-old male, found in a freshly eroded bank, 100 feet above Siberia’s Berezovka River in 1900.
- Much of the head, which was sticking out of the bank, had been eaten down to the bone by local wolves and other animals, but most of the rest was perfect."

- Like many frozen mammoths and other large beasts, it was in an upright position, although rather stretched out and somewhat contorted.
- Several ribs, a shoulder blade, and pelvis were broken. Amazingly, the long bone in his right foreleg was crushed into about a dozen pieces, without noticeably damaging surrounding tissue. ... There had been considerable bleeding between the muscles and the fatty and connective tissues.
... The ice layer directly under the Berezovka mammoth contained some hair still attached to his body. Below his right forefoot was “the end of a very hairy tail ... of a bovine animal, probably [a] bison.” Also under the body were “the right forefoot and left hind foot of a reindeer ... The whole landslide on the Berezovka [River] was the richest imaginable storehouse of prehistoric remains.”
... To break the leg bone into many pieces without damaging surrounding tissue, rock ice or frozen muck etc must have piled up under the leg and the whole body and then something hard and heavy, like rock, wood, or a large chunk of ice must have fallen on the leg, like a sledge hammer. Similar objects may have broken the other bones as well, or the weight of more ice on top of the mammoth may have done it. The bleeding shows that the mammoth was still alive when the bone was broken.
... "The blood-vessels and even the fine capillaries were seen to be filled with brown coagulated blood, which, in many places still preserved its red colour. This is exactly the kind of evidence we look for when we want to know whether an animal has been drowned or suffocated. Asphyxia is always accompanied by the gorging of the capillaries with blood.
... In all, three mammoths and two rhinoceroses [showed signs that they] apparently suffocated. No other cause of death has been shown for the remaining frozen [large animals].
... [T]he mammoth’s mouth was filled with grass, which had been cropped, but not chewed and swallowed.
... Twenty-four pounds of undigested vegetation were removed from Berezovka [a mammoth] and analyzed by Russian scientist V. N. Sukachev. He identified more than 40 different species of plants: herbs, grasses, mosses, shrubs, and tree leaves. Many no longer grow that far north; others grow both in Siberia and as far south as Mexico. Dillow draws several conclusions from these remains:
The presence of so many varieties [of plants] that generally grow much to the south indicates that the climate of the region was milder than that of today.
The discovery of the ripe fruits of sedges, grasses, and other plants suggests that the mammoth died during [late] July or [early] August.
The mammoth must have been overwhelmed suddenly with a rapid deep freeze and instant death. The sudden death is proved by the unchewed bean pods still containing the beans that were found between its teeth, and the deep freeze is suggested by the well-preserved state of the stomach contents and the [fact that the mammoth was] edible meat [for wolves and dogs, which ate exposed parts of it].
... At normal body temperatures, stomach acids and enzymes break down vegetable material within an hour. What inhibited this process? The only plausible explanation is for the stomach to cool to about 40°F in ten hours or less. But because the stomach is protected inside a warm body (96.6°F for elephants), ... [e]xperiments have shown that the outer layers of skin would have had to drop suddenly to at least -175°F!
... Independently, Sanderson concluded, “The flesh of many of the animals found in the muck must have been very rapidly and deeply frozen, for its cells had not burst. ... Frozen-food experts have pointed out that to do this, starting with a healthy, live specimen, you would have to suddenly drop the temperature of the surrounding air to well below minus 150 degrees Fahrenheit.” [But the frozen muck and rock ice probably froze them much more than did the air. - LK]

The Beasts' Last Stand
* Many of the large beasts remained upright, because they were quickly buried in frozen much, loess dust and rock ice pellets. As they were trying to run to a safe place, the frozen muck particles and ice pellets became several feet thick, so they were trying to climb out of the muck as they were running. They also breathed in so much loess dust etc that their lungs were filled with it and they suffocated to death. They didn't fall over, because the dust and rock ice soon became so thick that it held them upright, like being covered in quick drying cement. The muck, loess and rock ice were extremely cold, at least -175F, which is why the beasts' flesh was flash frozen and their stomach contents had not digested. The cold dust in their lungs likely helped flash freeze them within an hour or so. The large beasts on land survived the longest. Smaller animals died much sooner and were sometimes found under large animals.
Animals in Frozen Streams
* Two frozen streams were found, one containing large fish in swimming position in mid stream, and one containing a herd of cattle in swimming position with their heads above the ice. This shows that the streams froze very quickly too. Normally streams freeze from the top down, so fish would move to the bottom of the stream before freezing, unless the whole stream froze at once. The falling muck, dust and ice were so cold that they froze the entire streams within minutes.
Origin of the Frigid Dust and Sleet
* The dust and rock ice was so cold because it came from the upper atmosphere over the north pole where the plasma column had lifted it. As Saturn moved south from its previous position at the north pole, the plasma column released its water as the Great Flood. If the flood did not affect the Arctic much, the water must have been released south of the Arctic circle. If the flood had occurred first in the Arctic, the beasts would not have been alive during the fall of frozen muck and would not have been found in upright positions. And, once the water was released, it must have produced tsunamis, which flooded most of the Earth, maybe especially at lower latitudes. The removal of the polar column must have left a low pressure area over the Arctic, which brought the upper atmospheric dust and ice pellets down to the ground around the Arctic Ocean and into the ocean as well.
Petroglyphs Made Right before the Flood
* Peratt found that the plasma column was seen by the ancients near the south pole. I believe Cardona and Talbott agree that it was last seen there as the Earth was moving away from Saturn during the breakup. So, shortly after the petroglyphs of the plasma column were made the Great Flood must have occurred. Mars and Venus must have started breaking away from Saturn shortly before all this, I think. Talbott's Alien Sky video shows what Venus looked like during that time.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:12 am

Peratt found that the plasma column was seen by the ancients near the south pole. I believe Cardona and Talbott agree that it was last seen there as the Earth was moving away from Saturn during the breakup. So, shortly after the petroglyphs of the plasma column were made the Great Flood must have occurred.
Lloyd

Nearly all the petroglyphs are in the mountains, so one can only conclude that the tsunamis wiped out the low lying areas and the survivors painted and etched what they saw after that in those mountains. In which case it is peculiar that a particular direction is indicated that is not exactly at the south pole. For if the Earth was rotating then one would expect a circle of directions, at least, for surely the Earth was tumbling somewhat also.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:47 am

Origin of the Air that Froze the Mammoths
This webpage http://library.thinkquest.org/21418/spacee/Mesos.htm says:
[I]n local summer the polar mesopause [at about 53 miles or 85 km altitude above the poles] is the coldest place occurring naturally on earth: climatic temperatures are as low as -110° C (-230° F) and, on occasion, temperatures lower than -140° C (-285° F) have been recorded. Sometimes these low temperatures seem to be associated with thin cloud layers, which are best seen in twilight (when the mesosphere is still sunlit, but the surface is in the dark). Such clouds are called noctilucent clouds.

* So the mesosphere is very possibly where the frigid dirty air mass came from that froze the mammoths and other animals and plants in the Arctic. The removal of the plasma column left behind a "vacuum" or low-pressure area, that was first filled by the dirty air from the mesosphere above the north pole.
Dirt in the Air
* The mammoths were apprarently frozen by rock ice, muck and loess.
Muck
* This article, DNA frozen in permafrost muck reveals ancient ecosystem teeming with wildlife, at http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/11/dna-frozen-in-permafrost-muck-reveals.html#.UDj_3aBLMxg, says "muck ... is organic, rich silt [in] permafrost." and "the volume of carbon in muck deposits across Alaska, Yukon and Siberia is comparable to the amount of carbon presently in the Earth’s atmosphere." [That's 720 x 10^9 tonnes.]
* So, muck contains a lot of organic, carbon-rich matter from plants and animals, which were apparently pulverized in huge tornadoes in the polar plasma column from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago.
* The Hydroplate book says: [Muck] covers one-seventh of the earth’s land surface—all surrounding the Arctic Ocean. Muck occupies treeless, generally flat terrain, with no surrounding mountains from which the muck could have eroded. Russian geologists have drilled through 4,000 feet of this muck without hitting solid rock. Where did so much eroded material come from? What eroded it?

* It came from the ground first, then from the plasma column, which eroded it. Muck should make excellent fertile soil for crops some day, when it warms up.
Loess
* Wikipedia says: Loess is an aeolian sediment formed by the accumulation of wind-blown silt, typically in the 20–50 micrometre size range, twenty percent or less clay and the balance equal parts sand and silt [1] that are loosely cemented by calcium carbonate.

* The Arctic Ocean must have contained a lot of lime, i.e. calcium carbonate, possibly due to so much turbulence from the plasma column that eroded limestone in the area.
* The Hydroplate book says:
Yedomas and Loess. In Siberia, frozen mammoths are frequently found in strange hills, 30–260 feet high, which Russian geologists call yedomas.... For example, the mammoth cemetery, containing remains of 156 mammoths, was in a yedoma. ... It is known that these hills were formed under cold, windy conditions, because they are composed of a powdery, homogeneous soil, honeycombed with thick veins of ice. Sometimes the ice, which several Russian geologists have concluded was formed simultaneously with the soil, accounts for 90% of the yedoma’s volume. ... Some yedomas contain many broken trees “in the wildest disorder.” ... Yedoma soil is similar to muck. ... It contains tiny plant remains, is high in salt and carbonate, ... and has more than two and a half times the carbon that is in all the world’s tropical forests! ... The Berezovka mammoth was found in a similar soil....
- The ice and mud were not deposited as hills. Instead, they were deposited as one thick layer. Later, as the ice began to melt in spots, water collected in the depressions, accelerating the melting near them. What is now left, after thousands of years of summer melting, are these hills. Because some yedomas are 260 feet tall, the initial deposition in the windy environment was at least 260 feet thick.

* I think the Great Flood may have eroded away much of this muck layer. The muck was obviously deposited shortly before the flood, since the frozen animals would not have been standing or sitting upright, if they had died in the flood first. And they died by suffocation from the loess dust in the air, not from drowning. The muck was frozen and may have been as hard as concrete, especially if there was enough moisture in the air to cement the muck together as it fell. So the flood waters could have washed right over much of the muck layer, but eroded a lot of it away eventually, leaving just the hills, or yedomas.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:15 am

So the mesosphere is very possibly where the frigid dirty air mass came from that froze the mammoths and other animals and plants in the Arctic.
Lloyd

Except that there is not much air in the mesosphere.

So, muck contains a lot of organic, carbon-rich matter from plants and animals, which were apparently pulverized in huge tornadoes in the polar plasma column from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago.
Lloyd

Which suggests that you don't think that the muck got there in one event.

I think the Great Flood may have eroded away much of this muck layer. The muck was obviously deposited shortly before the flood, since the frozen animals would not have been standing or sitting upright, if they had died in the flood first. And they died by suffocation from the loess dust in the air, not from drowning. The muck was frozen and may have been as hard as concrete, especially if there was enough moisture in the air to cement the muck together as it fell. So the flood waters could have washed right over much of the muck layer, but eroded a lot of it away eventually, leaving just the hills, or yedomas.
Lloyd

I think that maybe the muck was created in the one event which wiped out the mammoths and a lot of other creatures around the world. As the Earth moved away from Saturn extremely cold conditions rapidly froze the material that had been swept up in the event that caused the Earth to break free of Saturn.

Then as the Earth neared the Sun, relatively speaking, some of the muck melted and sections got swept away, and possibly the muck was deposited in laminations so that some sections had a lot less soil than other sections.

Let's not believe what we write.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:51 am

Muck, Loess & Rock Ice in the Plasma Column
- From what I've read, there is no layering in the muck and loess.
- Cardona theorized that there were tornadoes or something like that in the plasma column, which tore up the ground and living things in the Arctic and pulverized it. I don't know if he thinks the water and muck were all held in suspension until the breakup, or if they were sometimes dumped in piles. But the main dumping seems to have been at the time of the breakup. The plasma column lasted for several thousand years, so it may have had tornado action from the beginning, in which case the frozen, pulverized muck, loess and rock ice may have been held in suspension in the column for a long time. If I find out what his latest info is on that, I'll try to post it.
Source of Freezing
- The mesosphere is cold enough now to freeze muck and rock ice to the required amount, -175 degrees F. Before the breakup Earth may have had more atmosphere than now, so the mesosphere may have been higher then or denser. But, at any rate, the part of the mesosphere over the north pole would have contained a lot of the muck, loess and rock ice, either within or adjacent to the plasma column. Those pulverized solids are more likely what froze the mammoths and other animals, rather than air, because solids are more massive and can absorb heat much faster than air. The best evidence seems to be that the animals' lungs were full of loess dust.
- I don't know if a vacuum can absorb heat, but I don't see how it could. If it can, then a vacuum bubble from space could have frozen the animals, but for now, I think frozen muck, loess and rock ice is what froze them.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:56 pm

Large animals disappeared around the world, so we are looking at a very major event worldwide. And so this event could easily account for all the muck. However, very electrical conditions in the north in those days seems certain. And water, being polarised, could be levitated and stored in a region above Earth, for example the ion belts. So the issue is whether there was EDM in those days.

Now I am not against there being a plasma column in those days, but I don't think that it is absolutely necessary so as to explain the geological evidence. I surely feel that there was such a column long before those break-up times, which explains how the geological column came about. I just think that nobody has really nailed it yet. Dwardu has some good ideas but surely there are errors in his work.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:37 pm

Map of Frozen Mammoths and Rhinos Locations
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/webpictures/mammoths-map_siberia_and_alaska.jpg
Image
* The image cuts off the map of Alaska. There is one SE toward Anchorage, one north of Anchorage near Fairbanks and one near the coast SW of Anchorage. None are shown in Canada, which may mean that the polar column moved south near eastern Canada or so.
Mammoths Were Hit by Meteorites
* I didn't quote the Hydroplate book on this, but it did mention the meteorites, which it attributes to rocks and water sprayed up along the ocean ridges. But as per below the meteorites appear to be not from Earth.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/mammoths-space/
“We think that there was probably an impact which exploded in the air that sent these particles flying into the animals,” said Richard Firestone from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. “In the case of the bison, we know that it survived the impact because there’s new bone growth around these marks.”
- The mammoth and bison remains all display small (about 2-3mm in size) perforations. Raised, burnt surface rings trace the point of entry of high-velocity projectiles; and the punctures are on only one side, consistent with a blast coming from a single direction.
- Viewed under an electron microscope, the embedded fragments appear to have exploded inside the tusk and bone, say the researchers. Shards have cut little channels.
- The sunken pieces are also magnetic, and tests show them to have a high iron-nickel content, but to be depleted in titanium.
- The ratios of different types of atoms in the fragments meant it was most unlikely they had originated on Earth, the team told the AGU meeting.

Meteorite Blast before the Fall of Muck & Ice
* I didn't notice the part about new bone growth after the blast. Bison have horns. I wonder if that's what they mean by new bone growth. I guess not. I wonder which bones were hit - maybe the skull. In order to show bone growth, the bison must have lived at least a few weeks after the blast, which means the blast came at least a few weeks before the fall of muck, loess and rock ice.
* It says the meteorites were likely not from the Earth, so I wonder if they were from Saturn, or another planet, moon, asteroid, or comet. I suppose a comet is most likely, but the comets and asteroids are considered by Cardona and maybe others to be from Saturn ultimately. I believe comet Encke is within the Taurid meteor stream, so those meteors seem to be debris from Encke. There are several other meteor streams too. The Saturn System breakup apparently involved at least one meteor explosion over the Arctic before the plasma column severed. If the small meteorites exploded within the animals' bones, it may have been due to the rapid change in temperature or pressure.
* If the meteorite blast hit most of the mammoths and other large animals, it may have been fatal to smaller animals. There may have been a lot of dead small animals around in the Arctic before the freeze occurred.
Airbursts during Flare or Breakup?
* Dennis Cox had a lot of good info on airbursts, which are meteors that explode in the air and shoot high velocity grains over a wide area on the ground. That sounds like what hit the mammoths and other Arctic animals. At this thread http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=948&start=105#p44247, Dennis descrived evidence of airbursts in the southwest. He was dating them to the Younger Dryas time, about 10,000 years ago, but I'm thinking it may be more likely they're from the Saturn System breakup about 5,000 years ago instead, because they were the last major events to hit that area. If the Great Flood was global, it should have covered up some of the airburst remains. So, either the flood wasn't global, or the airburst in the southwest occurred after the flood. Maybe it occurred about the time of Meteor Crater in Arizona.
* Dennis was also trying to get folks from this forum to help look for evidence from the airburst in Texas and nearby, which amounts mostly to craters, but also a black substance in some areas.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby moses » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:29 pm

Perhaps the planet, that came close to the Earth and pulled it out of the previous configuration, had a moon. Of course it could have been a Birkeland Current thunderbolt between Earth and this approaching planet that dragged a lot of material with it. This has always been an issue - whether the fragments found around a crater were there due to a meteorite hitting the crater or else the fragments came with a interplanetary thunderbolt.

So there was a few weeks after this first interaction and a more serious event which wiped out the big creatures. This seems to suggest that it was not just a simple fly-by of a big planet, but rather a more complicated interaction.

One of the issues revolves aroung whether the bison did actually live in the arctic and thus the temperatures were much warmer there then than now, and so there would have been little ice. Then the arctic would have been warmed electrically. Or else the bison were swept to the arctic from further south in a giant tsunami.
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby slug » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:40 am

Im quite interested in some of this, but I cant help but feel a lot of presumptions here seem to be presented as fact. So Im not sure if i have just missed sections of the Cardona reading etc so please help with these:

Lloyd wrote:The plasma column held a lot of ocean water from Earth.

How is this known?

Lloyd wrote: The plasma column lasted for several thousand years

What is the source of information that allows this to be stated as fact?

Lloyd wrote: Cardona also said the plasma column was the source of the waters of the Great Flood.

Is there evidence for this? Ie did the ancients record the flood came after the plasma column (which would have existed their entire lives considering other assertions here) disappeared presumably fast enough?

Lloyd wrote:The Saturn System broke up somewhere near Jupiter and the asteroid belts

How is this known?

Lloyd wrote:But the main dumping seems to have been at the time of the breakup.

I note you have phrased this just as a suggestion, but how then is this theorized concurrent events timeframe established to the accuracy of "seems to"?

Lloyd wrote:As I've pointed out before, the "Great Deep" was actually in the sky. Cardona says the celestial disk around Saturn looked from Earth like an ocean, so that's what it referred to.

How can anyone know how this would have appeared so convincingly to make a carte blanche statement like this?

Lloyd wrote: Comparative mythology shows that the ancients meant the sky when they said the Great Deep or the Ocean.

I have learnt current mainstream science seems to be forever putting their own interpretation on what the ancient "myths" "actually" mean. Surely a factor to consider about learning from the ancients is when assessing stories handed down we seemed to be best served taking it at face value that when they say they saw or experienced something, they knew their arse from their elbow enough to get basics right like ocean=ocean and not ocean=sky? If you can give examples of this comparative mythology you are quoting where what they say actually is an opposite or other thing I would be interested to view it, but it smacks to me of trying too hard to make the information fit the theory and not the other way around. I accept that peoples can only use language they currently have when describing exotic experiences, such as the suggestions that things like "flaming chariot" possibly mean "rocket craft" (just a possible example), but if you can show me the evidence of reversing of terminology for non exotic permanent features like ocean and sky that may help me chew on this better.

Sorry if this is pulling over the coals a bit, but the reason i accept electric universe theory is because of the genuine scientific method involved, and because it seems (from my recollection) that the theory knows where to draw boundaries of certainty, such as the "where does the electricity come from" and "how old is the universe" type of currently unknowable questions. As we are all laughably bombarded by mainstream science continually stating their big bang/dark matter universe as fact (when most here have already clicked onto this ivory tower dissemination) so it seems a shame to tar these elegant saturn breakup theories with the same "we know the answers to the unknowable" style of delivery, which is how it is often appearing to be presented.

In my opinion any theorized history of the solar system before intelligent beings were around to record it, can only with our currently level of knowledge and ability, remain theory.

Thanks!
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Re: Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:02 am

Mammoths Lived in Warm Climate
Mo asked about bison and climate. Yes, bison etc are associated with the mammoths and it was a warm climate. Mammoths weren't designed for cold climate. Here are some statements from the http://creationscience.com book.
Hair. The mammoth’s hairy coat no more implies an Arctic adaptation than a woolly coat does for a sheep. Mammoths lacked erector muscles that fluff up an animal’s fur and create insulating air pockets. Neuville, who conducted the most detailed study of mammoth skin and hair, wrote: “It appears to me impossible to find, in the anatomical examination of the skin and pelage [hair], any argument in favor of adaptation to the cold.”30 Long hair on a mammoth’s legs hung to its toes.33 Had it walked in snow, snow and ice would have caked on its hairy “ankles.” Each step into and out of snow would have pulled or worn away the “ankle” hair. All hoofed animals living in the Arctic, including the musk ox, have fur, not hair, on their legs.34 Fur, especially oily fur, holds a thick layer of stagnant air (an excellent insulator) between the snow and skin. With the mammoth’s greaseless hair, much more snow would touch the skin, melt, and increase the heat transfer 10- to 100-fold. Later refreezing would seriously harm the animal.
- Skin. Mammoth and elephant skin are similar in thickness and structure.35 Both lack oil glands, making them vulnerable to cold, damp climates. Arctic mammals have both oil glands and erector muscles—equipment absent in mammoths.36
- Elephants. The elephant, which is closely related to the mammoth,37 lives in tropical or temperate regions, not the Arctic. It requires “a climate that ranges from warm to very hot,” and “it gets a stomach ache if the temperature drops close to freezing.”38 Newborn elephants are susceptible to pneumonia and must be kept warm and dry.39 Hannibal, who crossed the Alps with 37 elephants, lost all but one due to cold weather.40
- Nearby Plants and Animals. The easiest and most accurate way to determine an extinct animal’s or plant’s environment is to identify familiar animals and plants buried nearby. For the mammoth, this includes rhinoceroses, tigers, horses, antelope,44 bison, and temperate species of grasses. All live in warm climates. Some burrowing animals are frozen, such as voles, which would not burrow in rock-hard permafrost. Even larvae of the warble fly have been found in a frozen mammoth’s intestine—larvae identical to those found in tropical elephants today.45 No one argues that animals and plants buried near the mammoths were adapted to the Arctic. Why do so for mammoths?

Sources on Plasma Column etc
Slug said: it seems a shame to tar these elegant saturn breakup theories with the same "we know the answers to the unknowable" style of delivery, which is how it is often appearing to be presented.

* It's common in our society to state theories, assumptions and guesses in the same way as facts and to let the context tell the listener which is which. In this case the context is this forum which is for discussion of EU theories. A rule of thumb should probably be to regard all statements as impressions, or more or less vague recollections, unless stated to be facts.
In my opinion any theorized history of the solar system before intelligent beings were around to record it, can only with our current... level of knowledge and ability, remain theory.

* The bodies in the Solar System have recorded themselves. They didn't need humans to record them. Humans just need to learn to read the records already recorded by nature.
Im not sure if i have just missed sections of the Cardona reading etc so please help with these:
Lloyd wrote: The plasma column held a lot of ocean water from Earth.
How is this known?
... Lloyd wrote: Cardona also said the plasma column was the source of the waters of the Great Flood.
Is there evidence for this? Ie did the ancients record the flood came after the plasma column (which would have existed their entire lives considering other assertions here) disappeared presumably fast enough?

* I first read Cardona's theory about the Great Flood coming from the plasma column in the Thoth online newsletter about 1997, which is now available at http://othergroup.net/thoth/. See also Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory from last year at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3824. I believe Cardona said many myths stated that the Great Flood came from the north. He also talked about muck being formed by the plasma column or tornadoes there.
Lloyd wrote: The plasma column lasted for several thousand years
What is the source of information that allows this to be stated as fact?

* I was stating that as theory, not fact. I deduced that statement from these facts. 1. Cardona said in the Interview above that before Saturn's last flare about 10,000 years ago Earth was in the Age of Darkness, when Saturn was the only object seen in the sky and it only had a dim glow. 2. He said Venus and the Sun were seen right after Saturn's last flare. I don't remember if he said when the plasma column was first seen, but it had to have been during the Golden Age, between the time of Saturn's last flare until the Saturn System broke up. That age lasted about 5,000 years, which would be the maximum amount of time that the plasma column would have been seen.
Lloyd wrote: The Saturn System broke up somewhere near Jupiter and the asteroid belts
How is this known?

* I haven't seen much of Cardona's evidence for this, but he did say probably in the above mentioned interview that it broke up near the asteroid belt. The belt is near Jupiter, so I added that, in order to help imply that Jupiter may have contributed to the breakup. Cardona had written about such a theory in Kronos magazine back about the early 1980s. He revised it a lot since then, but he may still regard Jupiter as contributing to the breakup. He hasn't answered my latest email, so I don't know if he'll tell me his present view. But I hope to read his remaining books before long.
Lloyd wrote: But the main dumping seems to have been at the time of the breakup.
I note you have phrased this just as a suggestion, but how then is this theorized concurrent events timeframe established to the accuracy of "seems to"?

* I reasoned that the dumping of muck, loess and rock ice from the polar column must probably have occurred about the same time that it dumped the flood waters, although it may have dumped occasionally throughout the Golden Age.
Lloyd wrote: As I've pointed out before, the "Great Deep" was actually in the sky. Cardona says the celestial disk around Saturn looked from Earth like an ocean, so that's what it referred to.
... Lloyd wrote: Comparative mythology shows that the ancients meant the sky when they said the Great Deep or the Ocean.
How can anyone know how this would have appeared so convincingly to make a carte blanche statement like this?

* Remember, we're discussing theory here. I'm not pretending to be an absolute authority. See the Cardona interview for his statements about this matter. He's a comparative mythologist, like Talbott, Cochrane and others and they've studied many of the most ancients myths and compared them to find common themes. And the ocean in the sky is one of those themes. I read Barbara Walker's [not Walters] book, The Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, and she quoted many of the ancient myths associations and equations and she made the same sorts of statements. See the thread, Myths and Secrets, at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=61233. The following associations are one line of many from that thread: CHAOS - godess' womb - twin creations - doomsday - Tiamat - wasteland - Nirvana - judgment day - godess mother - the deep - womb - darkness - great fish - churning - mother's abyss - ocean of blood - red sea - division = diameter = horizon of circle - **dragon - **spirit of God
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