Saturn System Breakup 5,000 Years Ago

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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nick c
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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by nick c » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:51 pm

promethean,
Your memory is still good:
The article is
"Aster and Disaster: The Golden Age -I," Roger Wescott, Kronos Vol. X, No. 1, Fall 1984
http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs ... /index.htm

The article is not available on line.

promethean
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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by promethean » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:30 pm

promethean wrote:I recall a Roger Westcott article in KRONOS ( Vol.X no.1 ? ) that claimed an"aural glow" of perpetual summertime... 8-) ...I think that was part of "Aster & Disaster" but don't trust my memory :cry:

THE CORRECT WORD IS "AUREAL" :oops:

And the "glow" apparently included a psychological state of bliss... ;)

Were human and animal auras visible in that environment ? :!:
"History teaches everything,even the future." Alphonse de Lamartine (1790-1869)

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by nick c » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:49 pm

And the "glow" apparently included a psychological state of bliss..
Frederick Jueneman wrote an article somewhere (cannot recall where?!?) that during this period the atmosphere was much more dense, and humans would be subject to nitrogen narcosis, aka 'rapture of the deep' and the 'martini effect'. A pressure related syndrome often characterized by a feeling of euphoria. Very interesting!

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by tayga » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:23 am

promethean wrote:And the "glow" apparently included a psychological state of bliss...
nick c wrote:Frederick Jueneman wrote an article somewhere (cannot recall where?!?) that during this period the atmosphere was much more dense, and humans would be subject to nitrogen narcosis, aka 'rapture of the deep' and the 'martini effect'. A pressure related syndrome often characterized by a feeling of euphoria. Very interesting!
That throws a very interesting "light" on the subject of the evolution of the human mind. There is a general agreement that the advent of civilisation as we know it was accompanied by a change in human consciousness and there have been various attempts to describe and explain this.

Emerging from nitrogen narcosis would certainly count as a change in consciousness.
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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:44 am

Tayga,

Why not do an experiment?

If I'm not mistaken, nitrogen emits yellow, blue and purple light. Take a dark room with a nitrogen plasma "light bulb" and see how daily objects like wine or seawater will colorise...

I guess, you also need another version of the same experiment where you filter out sunlight through nitrogen plasma.

Maybe it could be cheapily done too.

Just my two cents

btw, as a scubadiver I had nitrogen narcosis, It is a wonderfull feeling and quite dangerous underwater - you wont be thinking straight, nor logical.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by tayga » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:07 am

MrAmsterdam wrote:Why not do an experiment?

If I'm not mistaken, nitrogen emits yellow, blue and purple light. Take a dark room with a nitrogen plasma "light bulb" and see how daily objects like wine or seawater will colorise...

I guess, you also need another version of the same experiment where you filter out sunlight through nitrogen plasma.
That's a nice idea. It'd be hard to imagine an aureal glow deriving from a nitrogen plasma with those emission colours but the complementary colours resulting from of absorption of yellow, blue and purple are violet, orange and orange-yellow: a promising combination for part 2 of the experiment.

I also wondered whether there were known vision-affecting symptoms of nitrogen narcosis. A search throws up nothing about colour vision but plenty of mentions of tunnel. That would certainly alter one's lifestyle and experience.
btw, as a scubadiver I had nitrogen narcosis, It is a wonderfull feeling and quite dangerous underwater - you wont be thinking straight, nor logical.
Me too. Especially on the deep dives they made you do for certification :)
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 am

Whoops, something went wrong with my chain of reasoning;
http://electric-cosmos.org/ouruniverse.htm

Interdisciplinary physicist Wal Thornhill ventures that, at one time, Earth may have been within the protective aura of a cool brown dwarf star, the proto-Saturn, which provided an ideal atmosphere for life on Earth. Given this configuration, Earth would have been bathed in Saturn's constant beneficent glow with no difference between day and night and a continual benign single season. This was the time "before time" that Talbott theorizes was the "Golden Age", "Age of Perfect Virtue", or "Garden of Eden", depicted in one way or another in all diverse myths and religions.
So in the experiment sunlight should be replaced by the emf emissions of a cool brown dwarf star - Saturn. Now you can expect different colorations of wine, seawater and maybe a 'bronze' colored sky.

In the same line of reasoning our earth's atmosphere would be very different from what we know today. If the density of the gasses ( nitrogen) and the amount of energy (charge) in the ionosphere would have had different configurations, the standing waves (- the Schumann resonances - in the nowadays atmosphere 7.8 Hz) , should have been different too.

So if we talk about the emotional part of the Goldenage, I would purpose a different brainwave which is stimulated by another standing wave in the ionosphere. That could also be one of the causes of euphoric feelings...
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by tayga » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:57 am

MrAmsterdam wrote:So in the experiment sunlight should be replaced by the emf emissions of a cool brown dwarf star - Saturn. Now you can expect different colorations of wine, seawater and maybe a 'bronze' colored sky.

In the same line of reasoning our earth's atmosphere would be very different from what we know today. If the density of the gasses ( nitrogen) and the amount of energy (charge) in the ionosphere would have had different configurations, the standing waves (- the Schumann resonances - in the nowadays atmosphere 7.8 Hz) , should have been different too.

So if we talk about the emotional part of the Goldenage, I would purpose a different brainwave which is stimulated by another standing wave in the ionosphere. That could also be one of the causes of euphoric feelings...
I think your earlier idea holds in that this needs an experiment or two. There are too many imponderables to get a clear impression of what might have been occurring inside the brown dwarf's atmosphere.
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:58 am

Hi Tayga,

Would you have a possibility to setup such an experiment? You could extend your parameters to possible exoplanet atmospheres with the EU perspective in mind. Your question made me very curious....

PS. Maybe im thinking into simple terms, but what if you take the atmosphere of Saturn as it nowadays and try to maximise (or take a good guess about ) the charge input?
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by viscount aero » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:03 am

Interesting topic and ideas here.

I think the Golden Age is a figure of speech, a metaphor. However, from where did this metaphor arise (nitrogen narcosis)? Read below, particularly the excerpts I have emphasized:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age

The term Golden Age (Greek: Χρυσόν Γένος Chryson Genos) comes from Greek mythology and legend and refers to the first in a sequence of four or five (or more) Ages of Man, in which the Golden Age is first, followed in sequence, by the Silver, Bronze, Heroic, and then the present (Iron), which is a period of decline. By extension "Golden Age" denotes a period of primordial peace, harmony, stability, and prosperity. During this age peace and harmony prevailed, humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to a very old age with a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully, with spirits living on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus (397 e) recounts the golden race of humans who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean literally made of gold, but good and noble.

There are analogous concepts in the religious and philosophical traditions of the South Asian subcontinent. For example, the Vedic or ancient Hindu culture saw history as cyclical, composed of yugas with alternating Dark and Golden Ages. The Kali yuga (Iron Age), Dwapara (Bronze Age), Treta yuga (Silver Age) and Satya yuga (Golden Age) correspond to the four Greek ages. Similar beliefs occur in the ancient Middle East and throughout the ancient world, as well.[1]

In classical mythology the Golden Age was presided over by the deity Astraea, who was identified with Justice. She lived with men until the end of the Silver Age, but in the Brazen Age, when men became violent and greedy, fled to the stars, where she appears as the constellation Virgo, holding the scales of Justice, or Libra.[2]

European Pastoral literary and iconographic tradition often depicted nymphs and shepherds as living a life of rustic innocence and simplicity, untainted by the corruptions of civilization — a continuation of the Golden Age — set in an idealized Arcadia, a region of Greece that was the abode and center of worship of their tutelary deity, goat-footed Pan, who dwelt among them.[3] This idealized and nostalgic vision of the simple life, however, was sometimes contested and even ridiculed, both in antiquity and later on.

Virgil, moreover, introduced into his poetry the element of political allegory, which had been largely absent in Theocritus, even intimating in his fourth Eclogue that a new Golden Age of peace and justice was about to return:

Ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas;
magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo:
iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna;
iam nova progenies caelo demittitur alto.

Translation:
Now the last age by Cumae's Sibyl sung
Has come and gone, and the majestic roll
Of circling centuries begins anew:
Astraea returns,
Returns old Saturn's reign,
With a new breed of men sent down from heaven.
[4]

Somewhat later, shortly before he wrote his epic poem the Aeneid, which dealt with the establishment of Roman Imperial rule, Virgil composed his Georgics (29 BC), modeled directly on Hesiod's Works and Days and similar Greek works. Ostensibly about agriculture, the Georgics are in fact a complex allegory about how man's alterations of nature (through works) are related to good and bad government. Although Virgil does not mention the Golden Age by name in the Georgics, he does refer in them to a time of primitive communism before the reign of Jupiter, when:

Fields knew no taming hand of husbandmen
To mark the plain or mete with boundary-line.
Even this was impious; for the common stock
They gathered, and the earth of her own will
All things more freely, no man bidding, bore.

ante Iouem nulli subigebant arua coloni
ne signare quidem aut partiri limite campum
fas erat; in medium quaerebant, ipsaque tellus
omnia liberius nullo poscente ferebat. (Georgics, Book 1: 125–28)

This view, which identifies a State of Nature with the celestial harmony of which man's nature is (or should be, if properly regulated) a microcosm, reflects the Hellenistic cosmology that prevailed among literate classes of Virgil's era. It is seen again in Ovid's Metamorphoses (AD 7), in which the lost Golden Age is depicted as a place and time when, because nature and reason were harmoniously aligned, men were naturally good:

The Golden Age was first; when Man, yet new,
No rule but uncorrupted Reason knew:
And, with a native bent, did good pursue.
Unforc'd by punishment, un-aw'd by fear.
His words were simple, and his soul sincere;
Needless was written law, where none opprest:
The law of Man was written in his breast.[5]

The Graeco-Roman concept of the "natural man" delineated by Ovid and many other classical writers, was especially popular during the Deistically inclined 18th century. It is often erroneously attributed to Rousseau, who did not share it.[6]

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Re: The Golden Age and concepts of colour

Unread post by tayga » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:01 pm

MrAmsterdam wrote:Would you have a possibility to setup such an experiment?
Unfortunately not, at the moment. I currently have no access to a lab.
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn

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Saturn's moons not primordial

Unread post by celeste » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:29 am

An interesting article for Saturn theorists is this http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0895
For a bit more straightforward explanation of what it's about, see this http://sese.asu.edu/content/abstract-116
They are, of course, not suggesting that the Saturn system formed VERY recently, but I think their studies here will be something to watch. It's at least a step in the right direction.

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Re: Saturn's moons not primordial

Unread post by Sparky » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:30 am

I'll bump this up to the active posts. ;)

Why didn't Saturn acquire Venus, Mars,, or Earth as moons? :?
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Re: Saturn's moons not primordial

Unread post by viscount aero » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:44 am

celeste wrote:An interesting article for Saturn theorists is this http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0895
For a bit more straightforward explanation of what it's about, see this http://sese.asu.edu/content/abstract-116
They are, of course, not suggesting that the Saturn system formed VERY recently, but I think their studies here will be something to watch. It's at least a step in the right direction.
Well, it's quite painful to read it. It's full of mainstream gross language such as "observations of Saturn's moons by Lainey et al.(2012) finds that the tidal response of Saturn is actually an order of magnitude stronger than previously thought. This result is highly controversial, although it imediately solves the problem of excessive tidal heating of Enceladus."

That's very regressive in thinking. They still think that Enceladus is being "tidally heated" by Saturn. They also mention core accretion theory. Although a step in the right direction it is 90% in the wrong direction. At this rate of perception by them it will take another century for them to realize that none of their assumptions are true, save for the moons not being primordial.

from the link:

Colloquium: Wednesday, November 6th, 2013, ISTB 4, room 185 @ 4:00 PM
Reception: ISTB 4, first floor lobby @ 3:30 PM
Speaker: Dr. Matija Cuk
Title: The Moons of Saturn: Young or Old?

Abstract: Saturn has eight major moons that are usually thought to have formed together with the planet. Despite decades of effort, many characteristics of the moons' orbits are impossible to explain in the framework of very slow orbital evolution due to tides raised on Saturn. Recent analysis of historical observations of Saturn's moons by Lainey et al.(2012) finds that the tidal response of Saturn is actually an order of magnitude stronger than previously thought. This result is highly controversial, although it imediately solves the problem of excessive tidal heating of Enceladus.

However, if the results of Lainey et al.(2012) are correct, most of Saturn's mid-sized moons cannot be primordial, and must have re-accreted within the last billion years from fragments of previous generation of satellites. I will discuss how the faster tidal evolution of Saturn's moons can account for many aspects of the system that are currently unexplained, and propose ways to test this hypothesis.

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Herbig/Haro strings, Earth/Mars/Saturn/Neptune axis tilts

Unread post by tholden » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:28 am

Somebody tell me if I'm missing something here...

The claim which Troy McLachlan and I are making is that our system originated as a single Herbig/Haro string; that the original string broke into two or three pieces, and that those two or three pieces later rejoined.

We claim that the substring including Earth, Mars, Saturn, and Neptune flew into the plane of our sun's system inline at a ~26-degree angle from the South and that the individual bodies simply kept the roughly 26-degree angle as they peeled off and began to orbit the sun separately as they do now. That answers the mail as to probabilities as well as explaining the axis tilts of our system, Venus and Uranus being special/odd cases.

Does Thunderbolts have any sort of an official position on this one? To the best of my knowlede, Dwardu has mentioned Herbig/Haro object strings in the past but was claiming that Saturn had arrived from cosmic distances into the neighborhood of our sun. Troy and I rule that out due to probabilities and the fact that it does not explain the axis tilts of our system.

Ted

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