Questioning the Ice Ages

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:47 am

To produce glaciation we need a lot of snow, and to get this snow we need evaporation. If the Earth was suddenly cooled there would be little evaporation.


An alternative process could involve a CME of sufficient magnitude that could produce the water, and likely hydrocarbons, within Earths ionosphere. The key seems to be the pulsed microwave frequency plasmas, which can account for the formation of many geological features and rock types through dielectric heating and EM pulsed shocks, and also produce supercooled plasmas that could be responsible for a very quick cooling and freezing. No new science is required here, all the processes which might be responsible for just about everything that has happened to the Earth in the past have been demonstrated at small scale in the laboratory. I'll start a NIAMI thread for Extreme Energy Geology when I have time, though I rather think that the wandering planets and near collisions are really the mad ideas. ;)
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:23 am

According to geologists, the last ice age did not reach the tropics, but there are river and stream boulders all over the area. The ice age before that would have been from 360 to 260 million years ago, so how long does it take for boulders in a river or stream to wear away to nothing?
Thailand
Image
Vietnam
Image
Cambodia
Image
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:00 pm

Another scenario to solve the evaporation problem, is that cooling was caused by a sudden catastrophic process of volcanism such as would accompany major tectonic events (whether from seafloor spreading and continental drift, or crustal expansion) injecting myriads of condensation nuclei into the upper atmosphere. This fits with the recognition that prior to the "Ice Age" event the earth was evidently sub tropical worldwide, this most likely(?) due to water vapor and/or droplets suspended in the upper atmosphere in a way no longer seen today. This vapor structure collapsed in the causative stages of the glaciation event, leaving us with an atmospheric disequilibrium which is the basis for modern climate and weather.
Maybe.
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:12 pm

Gary,
Check out "debris flows" in youthful river systems as a process for the boulder deposition you are picturing. In the Cascades, this is a "regular" though mostly unpredictable process whereby accumulations of weathered material are suddenly released eg. during a particularly heavy rain or wind storm. These rocks avalanche down an existing stream bed, leaving piles of tons of boulders as they go. During one campout in the North Cascades a few years back, we awoke to find the road to the Colonial Creek Campground blocked by such a flow that occurred overnight. The stream normally flowed through a culvert under the road there, but was transformed into a pathway of various-sized boulders as far upstream as you could see [at least a quarter mile before the stream bed turned into the forest], which then covered the road and lay downstream a few hundred yards where the stream then entered a small arm of Ross Lake.
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby seasmith » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:31 pm

¢
FREE
Landsat 8 Data Now Available!

Data collected by the Operational Land Imager (OLI) and the Thermal Infrared Sensor (TIRS) onboard the Landsat 8 satellite are available to download at no charge from GloVis, EarthExplorer, or via the LandsatLook Viewer.


http://landsat.usgs.gov/LDCM_Landsat8.php
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:21 am

Hi webolife,
I had a very similar experience to yours while camping at Carmanah Creek (big trees fame) a few years ago. Camped on a logging road at the trail head, we awoke to find a landslide had covered the road just a hundred yards up from where we had camped. Pretty scary.
For debris flows though, here's a much larger one.
Image
Bigger:
http://nwgeology.files.wordpress.com/20 ... e-mark.jpg
Do note the fresh cut bank on the north end of the BCFS campsite where a nice cross-section of previous flow deposits is revealed.

From:
http://nwgeology.wordpress.com/the-fiel ... bris-flow/
I can understand how a very steep slope and waterlogged silt and sand can tear down a valley, but in places like Cambodia where the land is mostly quite flat, where do the boulders come from origianlly? Around here, the boulders are mixed in with the red dust, sand and gravel that lies at the sides of the main river/creek channel, and I suspect was thrown out of the river bed when the energetic event that cut the channel in the first place occured. When the washout happens, the rocks and boulders are released from the matrix and fall into the river, but don't go very far, and can be found in mounds of larger boulders that block the river flow and create a pond or lake behind the blockage.
When the boulders are found miles down a river along flat or low slope river sections, the mechanics, to me, don't add up, the water volume and speed would have to be phenomenal. Maybe it was, in the Great Deluge, but a one-off or short duration event is not going to be enough to round off and smooth those big boulders in such a short time, even if they did tumble many miles downstream.
And here is a video of someone rapelling into a canyon that is on the way to the Carmanah site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mp-gTBO1A
About 150 ft deep, but there are slot canyons up to 400 ft elsewhere, and I can't believe glaciers or water ever cut them.

Thanks for the link seasmith, will check it out.
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:15 pm

PURGATORY CHASM STATE RESERVATION
How did it form?
Image
This rock chasm is the principal geologic wonder of Central Massachusetts. It has been set aside as a state reservation to preserve the area for all to see. Geologists trying to explain its mode of formation had through the middle of this century provided three primary theories for its formation. After a brief explanation of each theory provided by each author. We will look at what is problematic with each theory.

http://www.nichols.edu/departments/purg ... /index.htm
The only evidence of water erosion are the potholes upstream along Purgatory Brook of the chasm exit, thus, they could not have resulted from water flowing through the chasm.


Guess what I'm thinking. :D
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:27 pm

?

Three crustal plate fragments colliding as one island ?

;)
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:01 am

Three crustal plate fragments colliding as one island ?


Here is where 3 plates 'collide', looks rather different.
Taroko National Park in eastern Taiwan.
Image
Looks like a much larger version of my Sooke Potholes park in places, but I have seen nothing around here to match the image found near the top of this page:
http://www.ey.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=0B1BBD6A31E50096

With my local potholes, I have found a research geologist who is interested in what I have observed. He has asked me to look for some geological evidence that would explain, by the standard model, how the boulders in the potholes form,
Image
and also to look closer at some cobbles that he believes must just be wedged into the cracks which are likely due to features associated with magmatic intrusions, dikes, into the bedrock.
Image
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:27 pm

Taroko Gorge, the centerpiece attraction of Taroko National Park in eastern Taiwan, is a pectacular 19-kilometer marble-walled canyon that was lifted up from the earth by tectonic forces and carved out by the Liwu River. (Lin Jing-shu, courtesy of the Tourism Bureau)


Marble is metamorphed limestone, so maybe Taroko is what a an ocean bottom that has sunken, then risen and been eroded for a while by a big river looks like.
Victoria Island seems a lot more complex ..


http://lithosphere.gsapubs.org/content/1/4/195/F1.large.jpg


"The Triple Junction is where the Juan de Fuca plate, the North Amer
ican plate and the Pacific plate converge in an area off the Pacific Northwest coast from Oregon to Vancouver Island. Seafloor spreading associated with the tectonic action created two major ridges, the Juan de Fuca Ridge to the south and the Explorer Ridge to the north.
Over long periods of time -- literally millions of years -- these ridges have gradually reoriented themselves and formed an independent plate called the Explorer plate, which sheared off the Juan de Fuca plate and slowly has been subducting beneath Vancouver Island. The plate, about 200 kilometers in length, is subducting beneath the North American plate at the rate of about 4.3 centimeters a year.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 110331.htm


Image

Pacific, Canadian Rockies, San Juan de Fuca
mud-crack fragments on a sphere

Gary,
(i may have posted this before somewhere)

Nice color maps of Vancouver Island Bedrock Surveys

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/techpub/rr02/compessed_maps_appendix.pdf




From a long, but interesting travel log by :

GEOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF CANADA
MINERALOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF CANADA
JOINT ANNUAL MEETING, 1977
VANCOUVER, B.C.
FIELD TRIP 7: GUIDEBOOK
GEOLOGY OF VANCOUVER ISLAND

Figure 9 page 40-
UPPER CRETACEOUS. NANAIMO GROUP. Clastic sediments.
. QUATSINO, PARSON BAY FORMATIONCarbonate ,clastic sediments . .
PERMIAN, TRIASSIC. Diabase, gabbro.
MIDDLE ISLAND INTRUSIONS. Granitic rocks.
KARMUTSEN FORMATION.
(A) Basaltic lava. Limestone , some clastics. (8) Pillow basalt, breccia
BUTTE LAKE FORMATION Limestone , some clastics.
LOWER JURASSIC BONANZA SUBGROUP. Andesite, Rhyodacite, minor sediments.
MIDDLE PENNSYLVANIAN, SICKER GROUP. Tuff, breccia, chlorite-schist.


http://www.gac-cs.ca/publications/Field ... Island.pdf


"What was once high shall be brought low, and what was low will be risen high"
-the Egyptians
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:25 am

Taiwan plates:
Image
http://www.tectonics.caltech.edu/taiwan/regional.htm

The Vancouver Island geology is interesting in that it is composed of multiple zones also, but also has ohduction similar to the Hawiian islands chain.

"What was once high shall be brought low, and what was low will be risen high"
-the Egyptians


That's interesting as I was thinking to myself when I first saw the Taiwan images that it looked like something you'd expect to see at the ocean depths. We know nothing, or less than the Egyptians anyway, it seems.

Over long periods of time -- literally millions of years -- these ridges have gradually reoriented themselves and formed an independent plate called the Explorer plate, which sheared off the Juan de Fuca plate and slowly has been subducting beneath Vancouver Island. The plate, about 200 kilometers in length, is subducting beneath the North American plate at the rate of about 4.3 centimeters a year.


Back to plate tectonics, but...

Furthermore, we now know, thanks partly to remote sensing from
space, that the Earth’s crust can not realistically be considered a
mosaic of 12 discrete rigid plates.


http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Space-E ... B005M4TLDQ

Yes, there is activity at 'plate' boundaries, but could it be from electrical and magnetic processes? We can heat rock very well with ohmic or dielectric heating, bend and twist and stretch molten rock with magnetic fields, and metamrphosise it with EMP shocking.

Re:FIELD TRIP 7: GUIDEBOOK

That's a very comprehensive account of the geology and timelines, but it could all be make-believe if short term, highly energetic events are responsible instead, and that is why I think the evidence of the pebbles and cobbles and rounded boulders being formed from the bedrock is critical. I'll be going back to some of those areas to do a more detailed examination soon, but I don't believe geologists will be able to come up with a reasonable process for their formation if I can show they are 'growing' out of the cracks and crevices, and within potholes.
From the gidebook:
The complex history of glaciation of the island is still awaiting detailed analysis.


That should keep some imaginative geologist busy for a long, long time, maybe millions of years. :D
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:17 pm

Back to plate tectonics, but...

Furthermore, we now know, thanks partly to remote sensing from
space, that the Earth’s crust can not realistically be considered a
mosaic of 12 discrete rigid plates.


Certainly Not "12 discreet rigid plates", and maybe not like mud-crack crustal fragments moving over a hot/wet spherical core, but satellites can consistently track their direction and speed of motion; probably more accurately than the rise and fall of ocean tides.
Love pure theory, but to be rigorous, one should at least consider the data.

∞™
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby finno » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:09 am

With my local potholes, I have found a research geologist who is interested in what I have observed. He has asked me to look for some geological evidence that would explain, by the standard model, how the boulders in the potholes form,


Nobody knows actually, how round holes form. Every theory have own weakness. I know from holes couple ones, what are against everything. and if believe potholes born when little stone drill it, this pothole can be real mystery.
http://www.kuvakuja.fi/node/106203?tag= ... nu&merge=1
Like we see, it doesn’t go to down like usually. Plasma dicscharge is only explanation, what can explain everything, but that’s only my opinion.

but how potholes form? I don’t know, but this picture can help. I don’t know, is it manipulate (is that towerstone originally from that hole).
http://www.cartinafinland.fi/fi/picture ... minen.html
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:29 pm

but satellites can consistently track their direction and speed of motion; probably more accurately than the rise and fall of ocean tides.


The deeper I look into the theory, and it is still considered a theory, of plate tectonics, the less assured I am that it is as accurate as presented. There are admissions to the 'delicacy' of the data due to atmospheric conditions and receiver drift, and I suspect that, as with star parallax data, any readings that do not fit the models are discarded as erroneous. They may have reliable positioning to less than a meter, but I think 3 meters, for civilian systems anyway, is the standard, so measuring millimetres or a few centimetres on an annual basis seems rather presumptuous.

Shipping hazards in the Congo River!
Image
I suppose if the plates have moved around so much, Africa may have been nearer the poles many millions of years ago, and suffered glaciation. Vancouver Island came from the South Pacific they believe. I don't.
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Re: Questioning the Ice Ages

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:01 pm

.
The deeper I look into the theory, and it is still considered a theory, of plate tectonics, the less assured I am that it is as accurate as presented.


Agreed.

( 'tectonics' just means dynamic structures, and i do think they are dynamic)
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