Electric Clouds

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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StevenO
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by StevenO » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:14 am

I think that it was pretty well established that thunderstorms occur in clouds where there is both water and ice crystals. Water is a good carrier of negative charge while ice is a good carrier of positive charge. A cyclic movement of both carries charges to different parts of the cloud where they can accumulate. That is why snowclouds newer show lightning.

( I read this explanation in a recent Scientific American, will try to dig up the story).
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by MGmirkin » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:08 pm

I'm starting to wonder whether t hey haven't confused cause and effect... IE, we had thunderstorms a couple times here this summer (we don't usually get them, or at least I hadn't heard of too many before this year). But I recall them saying that the area was getting lightning AND hail. In the middle of summer. A few miles away from the storm (where I was) it was clear skies, hot and muggy! So, one wonders how it is that hail mathemagically formed all of a sudden in the relatively balmy summer weather? I just wonder if the hail and rain gushed sometimes accompanying thunderstorms aren't an effect rather than a cause... Just speculative, but interesting.

Vaguely recall there was a paper to that effect... IE, lightning goes off, then the radar echo clouds up showing rain / ice formation, followed by a rain gush or sudden hail. I think it's in the papers thread of the resource section, if I remember right. Don't have time to go looking just now though.

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MGmirkin
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by MGmirkin » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:14 pm

substance wrote:So is lightning a cloud phenomenon or not? How come sprites and other lightnings occur far above any clouds? There was even a theory that Columbia was downed by a lightning bolt.
Keep in mind the earth functions like a leaky capacitor with the upper atmosphere acting as one plate and the earth acting as the other. I'd even go so far as to say there might be "layers" to that capacitor, or layers of charge in the atmosphere.

But in any event, sprites and upper atmospheric discharges appear to be the clouds interacting with charges closer to out in space! IE, it's lightning TOWARD space. The Earth *is* traveling through the sun's plasma environment. So, it's not entirely unexpected that electrical things might go on thereabouts (the Earth space boundary). The Earth isn't an isolated body floating through a perfectly empty vacuum. It's a charged body floating through a conductive medium through which currents flow (such as the 650,000 Amp "flux ropes" hooking us up to the sun in a circuit)...

Earth interacts with clouds, clouds interact with upper atmosphere, upper atmosphere interacts with outer space, circuit traces back to the sun, etc. etc. Good times.

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"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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junglelord
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by junglelord » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:39 pm

We had lightning and hail last week. Big hail too. I should have taken pictures. Second hail storm of the summer and the bigger of the two. What an incredible amount of rain. Wild storms this summer, and that Thundersnow last winter, its all very electric!
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by SciRPG » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:53 pm

A couple of weeks back, we had an incredible storm come through BC Canada.

6am I was awoken by what was obviously thunder, however when I first heard it, I thought someone tied a large China cabinet to a bumper of a large truck and started driving it down the road.
After several seconds of hearing this racket I got up from my bed to investigate (yes the sound lasted quite a long time, unusually long).
The sound of this thunder reverberated in several periods repetitively during its lengthy boom. It was crackling between these reverberating sounds quite strangely.

I have never heard a thunder-boom like that ever, I've witnessed (in other times) massive sheet lightning, and even had a bolt strike about 30 feet from my house in Winnipeg. I've heard many types of thunder, but THIS sound was truly the most bizarre sounding thunder I've ever heard. I wish I could have recorded the sound of this event. It definitely was the longest strike of sheet lightning (it did not sound like several strikes, it was more like one rolling event) and the strangest sound of thunder I've had my ears ever witness.
I wish I could have seen the strike, but the cloud-cover was massively dark and thick.

There was quite a bit of talk among friends about the ruckus for quite a few days.

I think Junglelord might have witnessed the same system rolling through.
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junglelord
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by junglelord » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:39 pm

Interesting. The inability to know that it was going to happen means I could have never gotten a picture. But my minds eye has a perfecct picture. It was most amazing to see this huge long bolt of lightning go straight across the sky in front of me. I was just looking, waiting and hoping to see some lightning. I was quite amazed at what I happened to see. I counted the time till the thunder arrived, like normal. I never thought of counting the duration of the thunder. It was most unusal as it went on and on and on. Thinking back on it, if it was as long as I tried to guess, maybe the lower limit even of 4 or 5 miles, then that would explain the exceptionally long thunder. Most lightning is cloud to ground, negitive charged, and therefore much smaller. This must have been a positive charged strike and was the longest and largest lightning I have ever seen. I was very blessed to see this.

I felt blessed to to see the Thundersnow last december, that was very special and only my second Thundersnow.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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GaryN
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:05 pm

junglelord wrote:
..But my minds eye has a perfect picture.
That was very wierd on the morning of the thunder. I was in bed, curtains closed, facing away from the window. I heard thunder, yes some long rumbles. The strangest thing though was that I saw a very fine lightening bolt in my eyes (or in my brain?), and heard a hissy crackle along with it. I counted 7 seconds before I heard the thunder. That happened twice within a couple of minutes or so. I don't think I was dreaming.

On a related note, I came across this this morning about noctilucent clouds. I'm presuming what looks like a hexagon in the centre is missing data, but why would the data be missing if the satellite is looking from directly above?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/25aug_nlc.htm
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by SciRPG » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:37 pm

Maybe were the next location of unusual HAARP experiments? lol
I have no clue where Sooke is, I'll look it up later (I'm in Vernon, North tip of Okanagan Lake)
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junglelord
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by junglelord » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:56 pm

Number 870 #1, August 26, 2008 by Phil Schewe
Cloud Crystals

The sharpest ever measurement of ice crystals in clouds will help to improve climate change predictions. Scientists have created an instrument designed to help determine the shapes and sizes of tiny ice crystals typical of those found in high-altitude clouds, down to the micron level, comparable to the tiniest cells in the human body.

Among the hundreds of factors climate scientists must take into account in modeling weather, the nature of clouds is one of the most important and least understood. The best researchers could do in the past to measure cloud ice crystals was to try to record images of them, but for crystals below 25 microns, the images were too blurred to allow accurate determination of the crystal’s shape.

Researchers need to know the shape and sizes of these ice crystals because their sizes and shapes influence how much incoming sunlight gets absorbed in the atmosphere and how much gets reflected right back out into space. This, in turn, can have a huge impact on the magnitude of possible greenhouse warming.

Now scientists from the University of Hertfordshire and the University of Manchester in the United Kingdom and Colorado State University in the United States have developed an optical scattering instrument that can evaluate the size of the crystals in a different way. Using this instrument, the researchers have been able to determine sizes and shapes of the kind of ice crystals in clouds all the way down to the tiniest micron levels. (See the accompanying picture of cloud crystals; the crystals now being measured are much smaller than this.)

The research team actually has built two versions of the instrument: one designed to operate on ground-based cloud simulation chambers or to operate in the fuselage of research aircraft; the other, an aerodynamic version that fits under the wing of the aircraft and measures the cloud particles directly as the aircraft flies through the cloud (see the accompanying picture). Neither instrument attempts to make a full image of the ice crystal, since this would suffer the same resolution limits of existing instruments. Instead they record the detailed pattern of scattered light from each individual crystal and then interpret these patterns using either theoretical models or by comparison with recorded patterns from known crystal shapes. From this data a crystal census of varying sizes and shapes can be made.

“The new instruments should help map out a more complete understanding of complex crystal shapes found in atmospheric clouds, especially cirrus clouds which on any day can cover more than 20 percent of the Earth’s surface,” says one of the researchers, Hertfordshire scientist Paul Kaye. “Our findings show that this optical scattering instrument could help climate modelers reduce one of the greatest areas of uncertainty in interpreting current weather trends and in making more accurate climate predictions.”

In addition, recent reports have examined the effect that pollution and the clouds caused by pollution have on reducing solar radiation reaching the ground, a development that may counterbalance global warming to some extent, and this new technology could help scientists better monitor and understand this situation.

So far the new measurements, reported recently in the journal Optics Letters, have been made only in the lab, but will soon be made in actual clouds.

http://www.aip.org/pnu/2008/split/870-1.html
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Influx
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by Influx » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:33 am

Check this out, amazing high speed videos of lighting.


http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ztresearch
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by redeye » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:23 am

How did I miss this thread. Those videos are fantastic, I'd been looking for something like this but they were either not slow enough or the quality was too poor.

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by webolife » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:29 pm

Isn't the roll of thunder simply the reflection of the sound waves from local/regional topographic [and manmade] structures?
Waves generated in the general direction of the listener exhibit that sharper crackling sound, while waves reflected back from various distances sound more like rolling thunder. Wonderful indeed but perhaps not so mysterious? I would be absolutely amazed to see sheet lightning under any conditions! In Seattle we have occasionally experienced electrical storms [with ice pellets] in conjunction with snowflurries, along with lightning... any actual studies done on the positive vs negative lightning associated with ice vs water droplets? I'm unfamiliar with this...
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by webolife » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:41 pm

Those slowmotion lightning videos are fantastic. This is exactly what I've been looking for regarding a theory of mine.
Correct me here if I'm missing something obvious or major.... I would say that the charge path is virtually instantaneously created [strictly by local electrical field geometry], and that the apparent motion of the leader stroke[s] is due to variable heating of the air molecules along a particular path or paths due to the dynamic relationship between the air resistance and the [in this case] cloud capacitor voltage potential. Once the air is sufficiently heated and ionized, the discharge of the stored charge happens, once again, instantaneously, along the most ionized path.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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redeye
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by redeye » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:31 pm

Isn't the roll of thunder simply the reflection of the sound waves from local/regional topographic [and manmade] structures?
Not sure about this but I thought it was due to strong sound waves interfering with each other. I think you hear the same phenomena when a rocket launches. Instead of a continuous noise it sounds like a gunfight during a firework display. Not that I've been anywhere near a rocket launch, so, pinch of salt with that.

I once experienced a thunderstorm high up in the tyrol valley in Austria. The cloud deck must have been about 100m and was further down the mountainside than the tree line. We never saw any actual lightning but every few minutes the entire cloud mass, as far up and down the valley as you could see, would be lit up from within. You could actually see the light moving through the clouds in massive waves. I've never been as close to severe weather as that, it was pretty humbling. We'd been walking in the mountains an hour or so before and the storm seemed to come out of nowhere. I've seen a similar thing from above when I was flying into Schipol airport, a lot of fun till I realised we'd be flying through it to land.

In the videos, you can see lots of little lightning bolts flashing around the area that the leader stroke is growing from. Would this be an analogy of the process that formed the light markings around tycho crater, electrons being scavenged to fuel the attempted charge equalization?

Cheers!
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by SciRPG » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:46 pm

webolife wrote:Isn't the roll of thunder simply the reflection of the sound waves from local/regional topographic [and manmade] structures?
Waves generated in the general direction of the listener exhibit that sharper crackling sound, while waves reflected back from various distances sound more like rolling thunder. Wonderful indeed but perhaps not so mysterious? I would be absolutely amazed to see sheet lightning under any conditions! In Seattle we have occasionally experienced electrical storms [with ice pellets] in conjunction with snowflurries, along with lightning... any actual studies done on the positive vs negative lightning associated with ice vs water droplets? I'm unfamiliar with this...
Well, I've been at this location for some time (since 1972) and I've seen and heard many lightning displays in this region. We get some spectacular lightning events here every year between May and July, these included rolling thunder by echoes, and massive sheet lightning sprawling across the sky.
All I can say is I've never-ever heard a thunderclap like that, I wished I was able to see the flash(s?)
The Okanagan is an awesome tourist area, plenty of clean lakes, great hot weather during the Summer (35+c) and mild Winters. We host the Funtastic Slowpitch tournament here every year, last weekend of June, people from all over North America attend. So I'm just a little North and East from Seattle. We have the rare hailstorm occurring every couple of years.
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