Electric Clouds

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri May 23, 2008 4:56 pm

In investigating further, I found this gallery when typing "Rainbow Aurora" into images.google.com

http://www.alaska-in-pictures.com/auror ... os-cat.htm

It appears to support the assertion that auroras are generally monochromatic (green or red, generally), but in those cases where multiple colors are present, they're present a bit more chaotically, as opposed to presenting a smooth, relatively linear/parallel spectral continuum.

So, it may well be that the sundog was coincidental that day, aside from being pretty... The only other thing which MAY have been related, would be the clouds themselves as opposed to the color of the clouds. IE, were the clouds "generated" so to speak (leading up to the quake, and allowing for the pretty sundogs), or were they just "there" to begin with and to be considered as part of the the scenery as opposed to evidence of some process or another? If they were already extant, then it might be harder to make a case for something like that. If, however, the clouds literally appeared in situ out of an otherwise clear blue sky immediately prior to the earthquake, that might be something interesting (though perhaps harder to prove, and less likely?). Even I think that might be grasping, a bit. ;)

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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by Steve Smith » Fri May 23, 2008 8:21 pm

Yes, those are sundogs in the cirrus clouds. Sunlight and ice crystals -- otherwise called a parhelion.

Image

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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by MGmirkin » Sat May 24, 2008 8:24 am

Cool. :D

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Re: Curious Cloud Formations linked to Quakes

Unread post by MGmirkin » Sun May 25, 2008 12:22 pm

(Big quakes spark jolts worldwide)
http://www.physorg.com/news130942304.html

Doesn't specifically list EM implication. But, it's still interesting that there seem to be connections between large and smaller earthquakes over long distances and relatively short time domains. I wonder if telluric currents have any role to play (one discharge puts an extra load one other parts of the circuits)? Just a wild guess for the moment (may be far afield of the mark).

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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by Vek » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:55 am

"You will see that when the filters are cleared, that we are all connected.
This is just the way it is."
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by StefanR » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:20 am

Dr. Brian Tinsley has been actively involved in observational and theoretical research on upper atmosphere processes (Aeronomy) for more than 40 years, and has served on many national and international organizations in this field. In 1986-88, while serving as Program Director for Aeronomy at the National Science Foundation, he had the opportunity to discuss long-standing problems in atmospheric science with program directors in areas of meteorology. This led him to begin research on the centuries old question of the effects of changes in the sun on day-to-day weather, year-to year climate changes, and global warming on the century time scale. During the past 12 years he has published more than a dozen papers on his developing theory of a mechanism for such effects. The theory involves the solar wind, as an alternative to the traditional view that changes in solar brightness were responsible. The solar wind is a highly conducting, extremely hot gas that blows from the sun outward over the earth. It impedes the flow of high energy cosmic ray particles coming in from the galaxy, and energizes high energy electrons in the earths radiation belts that precipitate into the atmosphere; both of these effects change the column conductivity between the ionosphere and the earths surface. The solar wind also changes the potential difference between the ionosphere and the earth in the polar cap regions. All three effects alter the ionosphere-earth current density (Jz) that is part of the global atmospheric electric circuit, and which flows down from the ionosphere to the surface and into and through clouds. There are good correlations, on the day-to-day time scale, between the above three solar wind - modulated inputs and small changes in atmospheric temperature and dynamics. Dr. Tinsley's theory is that the atmospheric response is due to changes in the rate of ice production at the upper surfaces of clouds, caused by the changes in current density into the clouds. ; This has consequences for cloud thickness and reflectivity to sunlight, and for precipitation rates and latent heat transfer, both of which are capable of affecting global atmospheric temperature and dynamics. About half of the global warming over the past century appears to be due to changes in the sun and the solar wind. Year to year and decadal climate changes attributable to the sun are significant compared to climate changes due to other sources. This mechanism also explains many reports of high rates of ice formation in certain types of clouds that has been a long-standing puzzle for cloud physicists.


Dr. Tinsley, working with Dr. K. A. Beard at the University of Illinois, has investigated various pathways for electrical effects on ice production in clouds. They have utilized laboratory and in-situ cloud data and made theoretical analyses that point to the importance of such processes for production of ice where there are electrically charged, evaporating droplets in clouds. In 1998 Dr. Tinsley, working with Dr. Beard and others, made numerical models of a process called electro-scavenging, and the results are now in press in the Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences. They show that the electrostatic charges on the residues of the evaporated droplets greatly increase the rate at which the residues (evaporation nuclei) make contact with super-cooled droplets, which are then likely to freeze. This increase is due to the hitherto overlooked electrical effects of induced image charges. It overthrows a long-standing assumption by cloud physicists that electrical effects in clouds are unimportant except in thunderstorms.
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Clouds and lightning

Unread post by rcglinsk » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:16 am

I was reading up on the "mystery" of where charge separation comes from in storm clouds and found the explanation similar to the self sustaining dynamo theory (ie temperature gradients and fluid motion as the cause). If we follow the EU motif, perhaps current between the Earth's surface and the ionosphere plays a role in clouds and thunderstorms.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by redeye » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:56 am

This is a good place to start:
http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php

And MGmirkin's reference page, look for the info on: Earth as a spherical, self-repairing, leaky capacitor
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 34&start=0

And an older thread:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... &sk=t&sd=a

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by GaryN » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:23 pm

I was at the beach the other day, just taking in the view, and there were two clouds, stratocumulous I would say, at what seemed to be 2 or 3 hundred feet difference in elevation. One was almost stationary over my head, and the other, the lower of the two, was moving very slowly from the ocean towards the higher one above me. ( horizontally, not vertically) As they got closer to each other, a 'leader' wisp of cloud moved from the lower one to the upper, and over the period of about an hour, a double helix at a 45 degree angle, between clouds became quite obvious.
I had run down my camera batteries earlier in the day, snapping pictures of chemtrails over our town, so didn't get images. That is the first time I have seen them in this area, and the sky had been just full of criss-crossed vapour trails that became broad and thin and persistent rather than fading away. By noon the sky was very hazy, but the sound of jets seemingly flying around in circles above the clouds could be heard. What ARE they up to?

Anyway, a search turned up this, which would indicate charge difference between non-ice crystal clouds occurs, and why not?:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 7/abstract
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:42 pm

GaryN wrote:I was at the beach the other day, just taking in the view, and there were two clouds, stratocumulous I would say, at what seemed to be 2 or 3 hundred feet difference in elevation. One was almost stationary over my head, and the other, the lower of the two, was moving very slowly from the ocean towards the higher one above me. ( horizontally, not vertically) As they got closer to each other, a 'leader' wisp of cloud moved from the lower one to the upper, and over the period of about an hour, a double helix at a 45 degree angle, between clouds became quite obvious.

[...]

Anyway, a search turned up this, which would indicate charge difference between non-ice crystal clouds occurs, and why not?:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 7/abstract
Hmm, similar reports of filamentary wisps or exchanges between clouds have been reported previously. I think on the old forum I had noted several stories from the Mysteries of the Unexplained book put out by Reader's Digest referring back to original accounts from sailors published in reputable magazines. Just interesting anecdotes mostly, without any specific reference to assumed cause. No reason to assume they were lying. Just recounting an interesting phenomenon they'd observed.

Seems to me like the clouds may have had some separated charges that decided they wanted to exchange as the gap between them was reduced by motion of the clouds themselves. Still in a dark mode, of course (IE, not sufficiently intense to jump up to a glow discharge, just enough to set the wispy clouds in helical / vortical motion). Seems sensible enough to me. Not unlike the thought about electrical tornadogenesis. Except in that case it's the Earth and cloud charge that come into interaction. Insufficiently to initiate lightning, but sufficiently to get a big ol' whirlwind a-blowin'.

(Stabilization of a High-Voltage Discharge by a Vortex.)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1960JAtS...17..468V

(Miniature Whirlwinds Produced in the Laboratory by High-Voltage Electrical Discharges)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1970Sci...168.1349R

(An Electric Force Facilitator in Descending TVS Tornadogenesis)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006physics..12216P

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by redeye » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:59 pm

The image won't work so here's a link

The interesting thing, for me anyway, is the link between positve lightning and upper atmospheric discharges. If there is a voltage difference between the surface of the Earth and the Tropospheric/Stratospheric boundary which causes a discharge (positive lightning bolt), this would, in turn, create a potential difference between the trop/strat boundary and the strat/meso boundary, which is equalised by a sprite discharge. I would then expect this to carry on, through each atmospheric layer until the atmospheric bondaries are, once more, in equilibrium.

I also think that exactly the same process goes on underneath our feet, but the charge is equalised by volcanism rather than lightning/atmospheric discharges.

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:11 pm

redeye wrote:I also think that exactly the same process goes on underneath our feet, but the charge is equalised by volcanism rather than lightning/atmospheric discharges.

Cheers!
Don't forget earthquakes! ;o] Interesting magnetic / ULF effects can be observed prior to and possibly during an earthquake (though the rumbling / shaking probably gets the most attention)...

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by substance » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:32 am

So is lightning a cloud phenomenon or not? How come sprites and other lightnings occur far above any clouds? There was even a theory that Columbia was downed by a lightning bolt.
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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by redeye » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:25 am

Don't forget earthquakes! ;o] Interesting magnetic / ULF effects can be observed prior to and possibly during an earthquake (though the rumbling / shaking probably gets the most attention)...
Absolutely. Telluric currents too. I can't claim to properly understand any of these atmospheric/lithospheric phenomena, but if you look at all of these things as components of the same system it makes a lot more sense than trying to keep them segregated in there own little models.
So is lightning a cloud phenomenon or not? How come sprites and other lightnings occur far above any clouds?


I feel the old model of lightning being created by static friction from particles within the cloud no longer stands up to much scrutiny. The fact that thunderstorms tend to begin after a cloud has bridged the gap between the centre of the troposphere and the boundary of the stratosphere suggests to me that the charge differential that is seeking equilibrium is in the atmosphere and not in the clouds themselves.

convection?

I live in the Forth valley and we rarely get thunderstorms...plenty of rain and wind though. I don't see the chem trails that Gary speaks of, it would be a bit of a waste of time in Scotland as it's usually blowing a gale. When it's nice though, I often see long, persisting vapour trails high up in the atmosphere and these are often twisted and kinked, basically Birkeland currents as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Clouds and lightning

Unread post by junglelord » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:02 am

I was watching a powerful storm two weeks ago. I saw a cloud to cloud lightning strike that was just amazing. It seemed to travel about four to seven miles. This would mean it was a positive lightning strike due to the distance traveled. The reverberation of thunder from this particular event I swear lasted 10 seconds....amazing. I have never heard a lightning strike have such a long thunder.

This winter that just passed, during December 2007, we had lightning during a snow storm. Known as Thundersnow.
That was really cool with a cool strobe effect from the snow.
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