Earth - atmosphere

[jtb]

No experiment as far as I am aware but we do observe Mars rotating at ~540 mph with average wind speeds of 10-15 mph so it appears that something rotates the atmosphere at roughly the same speed as the planet. I suspect it's electrostatic rather than gravitational as gravity should seperate the atmosphere into layers according to atomic weight.

Alternatively Mars is stationary (not rotating or orbiting) and it's atmosphere rotates ~10-15 mph about its equator.

Hi Aardwolf,
I looked at Mars and Venus also: the only rocky planets with an atmosphere: Mars ~1% that of Earth, Venus ~93 times that of Earth. Wind speed on Mars is calculated by the shape of dust dunes, not change relative to a stationary reference point, so, I question the existence of wind on Mars.

Venus is rotating at ~4 mph with wind speeds of ~250 mph, which tends to indicate the atmosphere is not locked to its surface.

I also rule out gravity for the same reason as you state. Velikovsky said water is 800 times heavier than air: what are clouds doing up there?

Mack's principle, or relativity, tells us that what we choose as a reference point determines relative motion. If we choose a stationary Mars as our reference point, it becomes the center of the universe and everything rotates about it. At one time Earth was the center, then the sun, now science ignores relativity altogether and says the universe has no center.

[Aardwolf]

No experiment as far as I am aware but we do observe Mars rotating at ~540 mph with average wind speeds of 10-15 mph so it appears that something rotates the atmosphere at roughly the same speed as the planet. I suspect it's electrostatic rather than gravitational as gravity should seperate the atmosphere into layers according to atomic weight.

Alternatively Mars is stationary (not rotating or orbiting) and it's atmosphere rotates ~10-15 mph about its equator.

Hi Aardwolf,
I looked at Mars and Venus also: the only rocky planets with an atmosphere: Mars ~1% that of Earth, Venus ~93 times that of Earth. Wind speed on Mars is calculated by the shape of dust dunes, not change relative to a stationary reference point, so, I question the existence of wind on Mars.

That's a little puzzling. If there is no wind are you therefore stating its atmosphere is rotating at exactly the same speed as the planet? Would this make it the prime candidate for the centre of the universe? Or is it more likely that neither Earth nor Mars are the center and whatever causes the planet to rotate (probably electromagnetism) also rotates the atmosphere? You are suggesting that because the atmosphere of Earth rotates at the same speed as its atmosphere is somehow proof that neither is rotating. The same principal should therefore apply to Mars which is obviously nonsense. The fact is another planets atmosphere is observed to rotate at the same speed as the planet and it doesn't need to be at the center of the universe to achieve this feat. Neither does the Earth.

Venus is rotating at ~4 mph with wind speeds of ~250 mph, which tends to indicate the atmosphere is not locked to its surface.

Indeed. My suspicion is that Venus is not a "settled" planet. Whatever causes rotation is likely driving the atmosphere faster than it can drive the mass of the planet. At some point in the future they will possibly be uniform once the planet catches up. However the fact remains that although out of sync both are subject to a rotating effect and are not stationary to any other reference point.

I also rule out gravity for the same reason as you state. Velikovsky said water is 800 times heavier than air: what are clouds doing up there?

Agreed and it's not just water. The atmosphere is full of very heavy compounds and elements that should have sorted themselves by atomic weight by now.

Mack's principle, or relativity, tells us that what we choose as a reference point determines relative motion. If we choose a stationary Mars as our reference point, it becomes the center of the universe and everything rotates about it. At one time Earth was the center, then the sun, now science ignores relativity altogether and says the universe has no center.

If there are numerous candidates for the center then logic would suggest that none of them can be. When Earth and the Sun were believed to be the center there was no understanding of what stars were. Now we have that knowledge it's obvious we are not at the center.

[Aardwolf]

Apparently Titan is another candidate for the center of the universe.

Huygens encountered its maximum wind speed about ten minutes after beginning its descent. The speed was roughly 120 metres per second (or 432 kilometres per hour) and was measured at an altitude of about 120 kilometres. As the probe dropped below 60 kilometres, the wind speed dropped too. During the final seven kilometres of the descent, Huygens encountered wind speeds of just a few metres per second, allowing it to drop in an almost straight line. At the surface of Titan, there was nothing but a gentle breeze of just 0.3 metres per second.

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/cassini ... 20070601f/

Something I wasn't aware of is that interestingly, in support of an electromagnetic atmosphere, the following was also reported of the Huygens descent;

The probe passed through one other region of near zero wind speeds, from altitudes 62 to 37 miles. Scientists cannot explain this yet.

Of course they can't, however this is what also happened at that point;

The HASI instrument also detected electric activity that is similar to lightning's signature. This was spotted around 37 miles above the moon's surface, which is also the region where the wind speed dropped to near zero.

http://www.space.com/1825-view-titan-st ... tning.html

[jtb]

If there is no wind are you therefore stating its atmosphere is rotating at exactly the same speed as the planet?

If there is no wind on Mars it could indicate that the atmosphere is stationary and not locked to the planet. Keep in mind that the Martian atmosphere is ~1% that of Earth. A way to test this hypothesis would be to have a rotating sphere within a stationary sphere filled with a colored smoke in a free-fall condition and observe if the smoke is locked to the rotating object. Alternatively the outer sphere could be rotating and the central sphere stationary. Electromagnetism could also be simulated to test your theory.

Another possibility is that there is a slight wind as a result of rotational drag. When we get behind a 18 wheeler on the highway, the atmosphere is dragged along with it. In my younger days I used to get directly behind a big truck and let it drag me to save fuel. The problem here is that Martian rotation is west to east but the proposed prevailing wind is east to west, so it couldn't be drag.

You are suggesting that because the atmosphere of Earth rotates at the same speed as its atmosphere is somehow proof that neither is rotating.

I am suggesting that both Earth and its atmosphere may be stationary unless there is scientific evidence otherwise.

The same principal should therefore apply to Mars which is obviously nonsense. The fact is another planets atmosphere is observed to rotate at the same speed as the planet and it doesn't need to be at the center of the universe to achieve this feat. Neither does the Earth.

Again, the Martian atmosphere may be stationary above a rotating surface.

Indeed. My suspicion is that Venus is not a "settled" planet. Whatever causes rotation is likely driving the atmosphere faster than it can drive the mass of the planet. At some point in the future they will possibly be uniform once the planet catches up. However the fact remains that although out of sync both are subject to a rotating effect and are not stationary to any other reference point.

The rotation of Venus is rapidly slowing but the Venusian wind is increasing in the same direction: east to west. Since Venus is rotating at only ~4 mph and slowing, it will eventually be non-rotating--tidally locked to the sun-- and could possibly be used as a reference point. I am not saying that Venus is the center mass. Actually, any tidally locked object is non-rotating and could be used as a reference.

If there are numerous candidates for the center then logic would suggest that none of them can be. When Earth and the Sun were believed to be the center there was no understanding of what stars were. Now we have that knowledge it's obvious we are not at the center.

Regardless of the shape or motion of the universe, everything has a center of mass: Barry Centre.

[Aardwolf]

If there is no wind are you therefore stating its atmosphere is rotating at exactly the same speed as the planet?

If there is no wind on Mars it could indicate that the atmosphere is stationary and not locked to the planet.

What are you going on about. Mars is rotating at 540 mph. So if the atmosphere is "stationary and not locked to the planet" then average wind speeds should be 540 mph.

Keep in mind that the Martian atmosphere is ~1% that of Earth. A way to test this hypothesis would be to have a rotating sphere within a stationary sphere filled with a colored smoke in a free-fall condition and observe if the smoke is locked to the rotating object.

We dont need an hypothesis or experiment. We observe Mars and Titan rotate in sync with their atmospheres, as does Earth.

Alternatively the outer sphere could be rotating and the central sphere stationary. Electromagnetism could also be simulated to test your theory.

Again, if this were the case on Mars why isn't the average wind speed 540 mph?

You are suggesting that because the atmosphere of Earth rotates at the same speed as its atmosphere is somehow proof that neither is rotating.

I am suggesting that both Earth and its atmosphere may be stationary unless there is scientific evidence otherwise.

Therefore that must also be true of Mars and Titan. No one standing respectively on those 2 bodies could not produce any "scientific evidence otherwise" either. However you say there's no "scientific evidence" yet I point to another planet that is rotating in sync with its atmosphere and you misrepresent whats happening as if that's an answer.

The same principal should therefore apply to Mars which is obviously nonsense. The fact is another planets atmosphere is observed to rotate at the same speed as the planet and it doesn't need to be at the center of the universe to achieve this feat. Neither does the Earth.

Again, the Martian atmosphere may be stationary above a rotating surface.

So why are average wind speeds not 540 mph?

Indeed. My suspicion is that Venus is not a "settled" planet. Whatever causes rotation is likely driving the atmosphere faster than it can drive the mass of the planet. At some point in the future they will possibly be uniform once the planet catches up. However the fact remains that although out of sync both are subject to a rotating effect and are not stationary to any other reference point.

The rotation of Venus is rapidly slowing but the Venusian wind is increasing in the same direction: east to west. Since Venus is rotating at only ~4 mph and slowing, it will eventually be non-rotating--tidally locked to the sun-- and could possibly be used as a reference point. I am not saying that Venus is the center mass. Actually, any tidally locked object is non-rotating and could be used as a reference.

Further evidence that the planet and atmosphere can be independently controlled and there's no need to expect Earths wind speed to be 1000 mph because of no evidence of locking. It just so happens Earth (like Mars and Titan) has stabilised.

If there are numerous candidates for the center then logic would suggest that none of them can be. When Earth and the Sun were believed to be the center there was no understanding of what stars were. Now we have that knowledge it's obvious we are not at the center.

Regardless of the shape or motion of the universe, everything has a center of mass: Barry Centre.

Not sure who Barry Centre is but the universe having a center of mass does not mean Earth is it.

[CharlesChandler]

Venus is rotating at ~4 mph with wind speeds of ~250 mph, which tends to indicate the atmosphere is not locked to its surface.

That all depends on what you mean by "locked". The force binding the atmosphere to the planet can only be the electric force.

The standard model states that atmospheres are gravitationally bound, and shielded from the solar wind by the planetary magnetic fields. Yet Venus has the weakest magnetic field of the 4 rocky planets, and the thickest atmosphere. It's also the 2nd closest to the Sun, where the solar wind is more robust. So the solar wind should have swept Venus clean of its atmosphere a long time ago.

Interestingly, Venus' atmosphere is also highly electrified, with constant electrical storms, so yes, it's charged. I conclude that the electric force keeps the atmosphere bound to the planet.

Note that charged gases (i.e., plasmas) have a much lower viscosity than neutral gases. So Venus' high wind speeds do not rule out electrostatic attraction of the atmosphere to the planet -- they are further evidence that the atmosphere is charged. Regardless of what is binding the atmosphere to the planet, an extremely dense atmosphere such as Venus' would generate a lot of friction if forced to flow. The friction would be within the fluid, and at the solid surface (i.e., skin friction). Motivating the flow against that friction would take an energy source that Venus simply doesn't have. There are two possible answers to this riddle: 1) the friction isn't anywhere near as great as predicted by the normal viscosity of gases at that density, since they're actually frictionless plasmas, and 2) because they're charged, they are subjected to Lorentz forces as the solar system moves through the spiral arm magnetic field.

This is consistent with the fact that both the solid surface of Venus, and its atmosphere, have retrograde rotations, but while the atmosphere rotates very rapidly, and the rotation of the solid body is slowing down. This can only be evidence of an external energy source that operates oppositely on the atmosphere versus the solid body. If they're oppositely charged, we get an explanation for what binds the atmosphere to the planet (i.e., electrostatic attraction), why the winds could be that fast in such a dense atmosphere (i.e., they're frictionless plasmas), and what is driving the atmosphere one way and the solid body the other (i.e., the Lorentz force acting on oppositely charged layers).

[jtb]

Ardwolf, Yes, your right. I didn't do my homework on Mars. Thanks for taking the time to correct me. Even though the atmosphere is ~1% that of Earth, if stationary, it should still be detectable relative to the rotating planet. What threw me was I read that wind on Mars was assumed because of the dust dunes rather than direct measurement.

Titan is more like Venus. Both are tidally locked, meaning they have orbital rather than axial rotation, and, both have wind speeds of ~250 mph. In other words they are not rotating but have very high wind speeds. Their atmospheres are not locked to their surface.

It does look like the atmospheres of Mars and Earth are locked to their surface. The force on Earth doing the locking must be 99 times stronger than the force on Mars, since the atmosphere of Mars is 1% that of Earth (unless of course, Earth is stationary).

What bothers me is that we can't simulate fluid being locked to a rotating object within a container. The magnetosphere being the container, the atmosphere being the fluid, and Earth the rotating object.

I'm assuming that the universe is a real physical rotating entity: a thing. Every thing has a center of mass. Stating that the universe has no center is delving into the supernatural. Its more believable just to say we don't have enough evidence to determine the center of mass.

[jtb]

Hi Charles,
Electrostatic attraction and external force on Venus' atmosphere makes sense. If Earth is rotating, is that electrostatic force strong enough to lock the atmosphere to the rotating surface?

[Aardwolf]

Hi Charles,
Electrostatic attraction and external force on Venus' atmosphere makes sense. If Earth is rotating, is that electrostatic force strong enough to lock the atmosphere to the rotating surface?

It's strong enough for Mars and Titan, why not Earth?

[CharlesChandler]

Electrostatic attraction and external force on Venus' atmosphere makes sense. If Earth is rotating, is that electrostatic force strong enough to lock the atmosphere to the rotating surface?

I don't think that rotation is the key factor -- I think that it is the surface charge. If it happens to be negative, +ions will cling to it, making an atmosphere. If the surface is positive, it will attract free electrons, but they don't constitute an atmosphere.

[Aardwolf]

Titan is more like Venus. Both are tidally locked, meaning they have orbital rather than axial rotation, and, both have wind speeds of ~250 mph. In other words they are not rotating but have very high wind speeds. Their atmospheres are not locked to their surface.

I think you need to do more homework. Venus is not tidally locked and the surface wind speed of Titan is under 1 mph.

[jtb]

NASA Observations Help Determine Titan Wind Speeds
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassi ... 20905.html
NASA
NASA Observations Help Determine Titan Wind Speeds. 02.09.05. Strong westerly winds of up to about 400 kilometers per hour (250 miles per hour) buffeted ...

Venus' rotation is 4 mph and slowing. Ironically, when tidally locked and reaching 0 mph rotation, according to current theory, it will be rotating once per orbit. Currently Venus rotates once in 243 Earth days. When it slows to 224.7 days, it will be tidally locked at 0 mph. Observed from the sun, only one side will be visible, the same as our moon as observed from Earth. Go figure. How can Venus rotate once per orbit while rotating at 0 mph?

I'm being facetious. I know the answer. Orbital rotation is an illusion. From a distant observer, Earth has 366 rather than 365 days.

[Aardwolf]

NASA Observations Help Determine Titan Wind Speeds. 02.09.05. Strong westerly winds of up to about 400 kilometers per hour (250 miles per hour) buffeted ...

Why did you stop there; cherry picking? Maybe you want to hide the fact that was the speed at an altitude of 120km. I'll quote the next paragraph for you;

The winds eased to a mild breeze near the surface of Titan, Saturn's largest moon.

Earth also has high winds in the upper atmosphere but as per your OP we're discussing SURFACE winds.

As I keep pointing out, and you keep refusing to acknowledge, at their surface, Earth, Mars & Titan all rotate at the same speed as their atmospheres.

[jtb]

Aardwolf,
You are correct. I only read the title of the website. My bad. I got caught not doing my homework again.

I think Charles has the answer as to how atmospheres are locked to planets etc... Now how do we duplicate it in the lab?

[CharlesChandler]

I think Charles has the answer as to how atmospheres are locked to planets etc... Now how do we duplicate it in the lab?

That would depend on what you were looking to demonstrate, but creating ions that are attracted to an opposite electrode is easy. (A $5 Cockcroft-Walton multiplier kit, once all soldered up, can generate 6000 V, which will create ions. A household ionizing air filter also creates ions.)