Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: questions regarding "symbols of an alien sky"

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:51 pm

Planetary System Not Like Atom
* It's doubtful that electrons actually orbit in atoms. See the NPA thread on Kanarev, Bill Lucas et al. Even if they did, there are only 2 electrons to an "orbital". In planetary orbits 180°separation between planets in the same orbit would be unstable. The Trojan asteroids orbit at 120°separation, so there are 3 stable positions for each orbit, not 2.
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Re: questions regarding "symbols of an alien sky"

Unread postby mathew » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:34 pm

The atomic models for atom were all mathematically inferred, and quantum mechanics have inexplicable anomalies that were cited as being paradoxical, these are the main reasons that the geometrical structure of an atom has been enigmatic.

“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” - Richard Feynman


Image


From wiki-
An atom's electron shells are filled according to the following theoretical constraints:

* Each s subshell holds at most 2 electrons
* Each p subshell holds at most 6 electrons
* Each d subshell holds at most 10 electrons
* Each f subshell holds at most 14 electrons
* Each g subshell holds at most 18 electrons

Therefore, the K shell, which contains only an s subshell, can hold up to 2 electrons; the L shell, which contains an s and a p, can hold up to 2+6=8 electrons; and so forth. The general formula is that the nth shell can in principle hold up to 2n2 electrons.


Image

Thank you Lloyd for clarification.
So maybe in the Jupiter - Saturn Configuration, all other planets are effectively Moons?
Or do we know anything of the nature of the "subshells"?
The wind.. in its greatest power, whirls. -Black Elk
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Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 pm

Rules
* This Planetary Science board is for discussion of the following.
- Historic planetary instability and catastrophe.
- Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons.
- Electrical events in today's solar system.
- Electric Earth.
* That's what I propose to discuss here.
Saturn Theories
* This theory, that Earth was a moon of Saturn, is accepted by most or all of the Thunderbolts team. Talbott wrote about it in his 1980 book, The Saturn Myth. Cardona has written 3 big books about it so far, called God Star, Flare Star and Primordial Star, and hopes to write a few more. Velikovsky also thought that Earth was a moon of Saturn and initially intended to discuss that in the first part of his 1950 book, Worlds in Collision. But the publisher suggested writing a second book about it later, which he never did. Talbott and Cardona got their initial ideas from Velikovsky.
Stationary Saturn in Myths
* Talbott found in studying ancient myths that Saturn occupied a stationary position in the sky in ancient times. It sounded preposterous, but he felt that the myths should lead the way in this science to see where they could take us, rather than letting astronomy or geology lead the way. Several interesting theories were developed by several researchers in the 80s and 90s, but Thornhill came up with the apparently most likely theory, that Saturn was a brown dwarf star that was initially outside the Solar System. At least I think that was all his idea. I'm not sure.
Comet-like Saturn
* Now Cardona has taken that a step further and describes ancient Saturn as a comet-like brown dwarf star. Comets have tails and travel on elongated orbits that bring them into constantly changing charge environments. Brown dwarfs travel independent paths in the galaxy and also are influenced by changing charge environments, which give them bipolar jets, like comet tails.
* Before the comet, SL9 struck Jupiter in 1994, it was in many pieces all moving in single file, one behind another. That's how Earth followed Saturn before they arrived at the Solar System's asteroid belt, where the Saturn System broke up.
* Brown dwarf jets are seen at the front and back of the stars, leading and following, according to Cardona. So Earth traveled in Saturn's trailing jet. Saturn's electric and magnetic fields apparently constrained the Earth to move with its north pole facing and aligned with Saturn's south pole.
* So we finally have an answer to the question of how Saturn could have remained fixed in the sky above Earth's north pole, as the ancient myths say.
Saturn Flares
* Cardona also found that brown dwarfs periodically flare up like the Sun, only much brighter, for their distances. He seems to state that, when the flares occur, the bipolar jets are interrupted, and when the flares end, the jets resume. The brown dwarf flares seem to be huge electrical double layers explosions, described by Alfven, Thornhill, Stephen Smith et al. See some of the TPODs for Smith's descriptions.
Rock Formation
* Cardona says Saturn seems to have rained down detritus onto Earth from the flares, which formed much of the Earth's rocky mantle. Mars was likely also a moon of Saturn and the detritus formed rock layers there too. The detritus fell mostly on the northern hemisphere, forming a supercontinent, centered on the north pole.
* I'll stop there for now and try to post a potentially new (for me) insight soon.
Last edited by Lloyd on Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:24 pm

Continental Drift in Cardona's Saturn Theory
* Cardona says there's evidence of former Earth expansion and contraction, as well as continental drift without subduction. And it wasn't really a drift, but a fast sliding movement. The Earth's crust slid over the Moho layer, during Saturn flares, because flares halted rotation of Earth's core. Continental sliding, instead of drift, without subduction, has very good evidence. The coasts of the east and west hemisphere continents fit together very well, suggesting that they were once joined together, then broke apart. The fit isn't conclusive by itself, but the fossils and rock types on the opposing shores also match very well, and that makes it highly probable that they were once joined.
Supercontinent
* As I said in the first post, the supercontinent was formed from Saturn detritus during flares. Think of the supercontinent at the north pole as being all the present continents joined together with Africa in the middle of the supercontinent and the others all around Africa, somewhat as in the upper left image below. (I think Cardona's idea is that Antarctica was in the center of the supercontinent and at the south pole, but I don't know what his evidence is for that.) Anyway, when Saturn's flare stopped the Earth's core rotation, the supercontinent slid over the plasma Moho layer, which is about 7 to 30 kilometers deep, and the continents broke apart and moved to the equator, as shown in the last 3 images below. The outer periphery of the supercontinent would have had the most momentum, like ice skaters playing crack the whip, and heating over the Moho layer would have melted rock strata enough to break apart.
Impact
* But I think one additional event occurred, that shocked the supercontinent, breaking it apart and causing mountain ranges to form, as almost explained at http://newgeology.us. That site says a large meteorite struck at what is now off of Somalia in east Africa, but I think it was megalightning from Saturn that struck there instead. Or it may have been both. As the website explains, the impact was like hitting a slab of ice with a sledge hammer, breaking the slab into pieces that slid off in different directions. The motions of the continents seem to all be away from the area near Somalia. (I don't think India was ever separated from Asia though.)
Axis Shift
* After the continents reached the equator, with Africa still at the north pole, Earth's axis shifted by 90 degrees, putting Africa on the new equator.
Previous Supercontinent
* During the prior Saturn flare a similar smaller supercontinent appears to have formed and broke up, which left the East Pacific Rise, whereas the last flare 10,000 BP left the Mid Atlantic Ridge.
http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/ocean20.gif
Image
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby biknewb » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:41 am

Shifting of the Earth axis doesn't look very hard when written in words. But anyone contemplating these events should at least once hold a spinning bicycle wheel and try to shift the axis 90 degrees. Even a mildly spinning mass will strongly resist change.
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby jim1967 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:17 am

Excellent summarization Lloyd! I've been in the Saturnist camp since being introduced to it here on TB. Not sure if I agree with the continental drift theory though. I'm a big proponent of the expanding earth theory, but nothing about that theory precludes adhering to the Saturn Theory. Just my two cents. Keep up the good work!
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:52 pm

Africa not in Cardona's Theory
* Cardona wants it clarified that the idea of Africa being in the center of the former supercontinent is not his idea. I stated that above in parentheses, but he doesn't seem to think that's clear enough. So is it clear now? I think his idea, as I said above, is that Antarctica was in the center.
Axis Shifting Problem
Bik said: Shifting of the Earth axis doesn't look very hard when written in words. But anyone contemplating these events should at least once hold a spinning bicycle wheel and try to shift the axis 90 degrees. Even a mildly spinning mass will strongly resist change.

* Thanks for the reminder. It's helpful to look for weak points of any theory. I'm not sure how relevant that fact would be when a Saturn flare would put an electrical brake on Earth's core rotation. Once the continents start sliding after the core stops, when the core resumes spinning, the continents could continue to slide for some time somewhat independently of the core, it seems. But I don't know if there's anything that would cause the center of the supercontinent, Africa, to end up 90 degrees from where it started.
Continental Sliding vs. Earth Expansion
* Jim, the continental sliding idea seems to me to be a strong point of this theory, moreso than Earth expansion, although I mentioned that Cardona thinks Earth has both expanded and contracted. What form of expansion do you find most persuasive? Internal or external? And via what mechanism?
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby longcircuit » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:05 pm

My only question: how will anyone be able to prove any of this?

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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby MattEU » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:27 pm

longcircuit wrote:My only question: how will anyone be able to prove any of this?

longcircuit


That is very easy to do.

Dont we propose the idea or theory, then as our scientific research shows that each part of it is not correct we modify it, then as the new modified theory is incorrect we modify that ... Then after 50 years we claim that as the theory predicted 5% of the latest very surprising results, therefore the whole theory is correct and has always been correct. Thats how our bigger and better scientific brothers do it and it works for them ... Black Holes, Big Bang Theory, Evolution Theory etc

So, if we can prove that Saturn exists and the Earth exists I think its case solved.


But on a more serious note, that may not put me in a good light with the higher beings of thunderbolts and i can not believe i am actually going to post this ... does it seem to any one else that perhaps the leading thunderbolts people seem to only accept their version of the Saturn Theory or how our solar system came into its recent order, that other theories are not given much of a chance and they seem a bit obsessive–compulsive disorder about the whole thing?

That reads very harsh in black and light blue!
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:15 am

biknewb wrote:Shifting of the Earth axis doesn't look very hard when written in words. But anyone
contemplating these events should at least once hold a spinning bicycle wheel and try to shift the axis 90 degrees.
Even a mildly spinning mass will strongly resist change.


Does this analogy really apply to the circumstances of this planetary reconstruction? It seems that it is missing
some important factors, such as forces involving multiple objects, break-away forces or rebound forces.
I think the principle detail is that one or more bodies were torn away from their former orientation. I cannot
imagine this would have any similarity to attempting to change tilt by forces applied at the axis of a spinning
wheel.
A better example might come from the interaction between a spinning ball and a swung bat, but this is still an
inadequate analogy.
There is another weakness that may also need attention. Do moons rotate on their axis in the same way as a
planet? Did earth depart from the colinear arrangement proposed by D. Talbott from an axial position or as
an orbiting moon? d...z
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:18 am

longcircuit wrote:My only question: how will anyone be able to prove any of this?

longcircuit


Though i agree that what varied evidence we have strongly suggests
that these theories are valid, there is still a great deal of imagination/speculation involved, which many believe is a form of proof.

The only proof that i can think of is documentation in video form, which ET's may have witnessed and, hopefully they will publish on the most scientific cited media, utube. Then the only question will be, how much can we trust lizards? :!:



;)


..
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby longcircuit » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:45 pm

Sparky:
(Groan) Okay, maybe I deserved that.

MattEU:
I should have been clearer.
Although I've read that some mainstream astronomers now think Jupiter and Saturn may be "failed" brown dwarves, won't Saturnian cosmology have to prove Saturn was a "successful" brown dwarf?
Then, won't it have to show that Earth was a satellite of Saturn? How can anyone do this?

It's one thing to expound a theory of electric stars, galaxies, and planets.
It's a wholly other thing to posit that: Earth was once a moon of a brown dwarf star we now call Saturn; that at some time in the not-very-distant past, the Saturnian system somehow was captured by the Sun (and its satellites, assuming it had any); that the capture somehow stripped Earth from its orbit around Saturn; and that the current result of the capture is the Solar System we know today. Never mind that, in an Electric Universe, such a series of events is possible—how will one show that it happened?

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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby starbiter » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:01 pm

Hello Longcircuit: I think myth and legend are the only way to understand the Saturnian System. If this is not convincing there will be a problem. I don't think You will find something physical.

Earth geology is a different matter.

The Velikovsky version of the Saturnian System is in the link below, which i have posted previously.

http://www.varchive.org/itb/index.htm

michael
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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby longcircuit » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:45 pm

Michael,

Good point about myth and legend. It's worth noting they accord better with a Saturnian cosmology than with the standard model of accretion from dust and gas. Interesting though this is, it's only suggestive of what might have been.
I think it's a waste of time for the EU community to speculate whether or not Earth was a moon of Saturn. We should instead focus on the predictive power the theory gives (cf. Thornhill and Comet Tempel 1), and on showing to the wider world how well it explains terrestrial geology, as you note.

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Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn

Unread postby nick c » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:57 pm

hi Longcircuit,
I think it's a waste of time for the EU community to speculate whether or not Earth was a moon of Saturn. We should instead focus on the predictive power the theory gives (cf. Thornhill and Comet Tempel 1), and on showing to the wider world how well it explains terrestrial geology, as you note.
I respect that opinion, but I will let you in on a little secret :shock:
The Electric Universe originated when Wal Thornhill tried to figure out how the Earth could have gone from being a satellite of a brown dwarf to it's present situation. That trail led him into...the Electric Universe! So without the Saturn/brown dwarf hypothesis, no EU. Now that does not mean the hypothesis is correct, but history tells us that the road to discovery can take some strange twists and turns.

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