Electric Saturn

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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solrey
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by solrey » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:03 am

It's known that an encompassing magnetic field will moderate and balance plasma instabilities resulting in a stable system that can last indefinitely. Focus Fusion uses this concept to control the spin axis of a DPF plasmoid and to keep ion energies much higher than electron energies. The hexagon on Saturn could be a persistent diocotron instability moderated by Saturns strong magnetic field.

Image
Progression of a diocotron instability

I think an external magnetic field could maintain a hexagonal structure similar to the middle frame in the above image. Since we see hexagonal structures in a variety of environments including craters it seems that the physics of fluids is inadequate to explain the cause, especially where craters are concerned. Diocotron instabilities however can easily produce the same hexagonal pattern in a broad range of situations.

cheers,
Tim
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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:51 pm

solrey wrote:It's known that an encompassing magnetic field will moderate and balance plasma instabilities resulting in a stable system that can last indefinitely. Focus Fusion uses this concept to control the spin axis of a DPF plasmoid and to keep ion energies much higher than electron energies. The hexagon on Saturn could be a persistent diocotron instability moderated by Saturns strong magnetic field.
Tim
This definitely also a good explanation. It comes from people in the lab looking at the same plasma phenomena but then on a smaller scale.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by nick c » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:37 pm

solrey,
Very nice plasma/electrical explanation, and a concept that has numerous applications, and ties into features observed on other bodies, such as crater shapes! it makes sense.
here are some other threads on this topic:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=4&t=3105
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=4&t=2730
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=4&t=1203

Wal Thornhill said the same (diocotron instability) for the "dragon" storm on Saturn:
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=xewq47rt

related TPODs:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... rstorm.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... storms.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... eating.htm

Nick

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webolife
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by webolife » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:13 pm

It would interesting for someone with more time than I have to see if Mr. Amsterdam's fluid dynamics link can be corroborated [or not] for Saturn's polar hexagon as a mode-locked feature, ie. how many times does the hexagon rotate as a ratio to the rotation of Saturn's equator? Or hidden cloud layers below?
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solrey
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by solrey » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:48 pm

I think that the closed system of the experiment does not apply to the open system of Saturn's atmosphere.
The experiment consists of a stationary cylindrical container in which a circular plate is
rotated by a motor.
When the plate is set into rotation the centrifugal force presses the fluid outward, deforming the free surface.
So the fluid is trapped in the cylinder and centrifugal force causes the fluid to pile up along the edges forming a depression in the middle resulting in a concave three dimensional structure. I think the polygonal shapes are the result of constructive interference waves generated by the vibrating disc. The side views show a pronounced cup shape like water going down a drain so the structure is three dimensional and not just a pattern on the surface.

They used two different fluids, water and ethylene glycol.
Aside from water, the experiments have been carried out with ethylene glycol with a viscosity of around
15 times larger than water...
We do not see polygons with N > 3 in ethylene glycol. For most polygons with N > 2, the center is dry.
In our experiment a shear layer indeed exists due to the no-slip condition on the stationary cylinder wall and could indeed lead to instability of the classical Kelvin-Helmholtz/Rayleigh type. In some cases we actually observe vortices close to the corners of the polygons. This is shown very clearly in Fig. 2(right), where vortices are seen outside each of the four corners. We therefore believe that vortex formation and interaction is very important for the development and stability of the final state.
A couple of things about the Saturn hexagon stand out compared to this experiment. For one Saturn's atmosphere is an open system. Another is the fact that the atmosphere within the hexagon is not deeply concaved, yet the structure/shape of the outer walls extends 60 miles deep into the atmosphere and doesn't appear to have the associated vortices at the corners either.

Admittedly the experiment, when viewed two dimensionally from above, does have superficial similarities to Saturns hexagon, but not so much when considering all of the details as a whole.

cheers,
Tim
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:25 am

Hello all,

maybe we should take a look at the earth as example;

If you look right now on google earth you can see a cloud vortex on the nortpole of the earth.

check the following link http://euv.lpl.arizona.edu/euv/

IMAGE Extreme Ultraviolet Imager
euv_illustration4.jpg
Earth's plasmasphere at 30.4 nm. This image from the Extreme Ultraviolet Imager was taken at 07:34 UTC on 24 May 2000, at a range of 6.0 Earth radii from the center of Earth and a magnetic latitude of 73 N. The Sun is to the lower right, and Earth's shadow extends through the plasmasphere toward the upper left. The bright ring near the center is an aurora, and includes emissions at wavelengths other than 30.4 nm. (From Sandel, B. R., et al., Space Sci. Rev., 109, 25, 2003.)

The plasmafield at the northpole, does it make the gas matter move in rotational form as you can see in the northpole cloud cover ? Does plasma has kinetic properties to do so?

If so, I'm beginning to see how Solrey 's explanation is fitting the picture.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by MattEU » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:38 am

solrey wrote:It's known that an encompassing magnetic field will moderate and balance plasma instabilities resulting in a stable system that can last indefinitely. Focus Fusion uses this concept to control the spin axis of a DPF plasmoid and to keep ion energies much higher than electron energies. The hexagon on Saturn could be a persistent diocotron instability moderated by Saturns strong magnetic field.

Image
Progression of a diocotron instability

I think an external magnetic field could maintain a hexagonal structure similar to the middle frame in the above image. Since we see hexagonal structures in a variety of environments including craters it seems that the physics of fluids is inadequate to explain the cause, especially where craters are concerned. Diocotron instabilities however can easily produce the same hexagonal pattern in a broad range of situations.

cheers,
Tim
bloody hell. as those old people who speak the Queens English are known to say. seen those images before but now seeing them in a new light. cheers solrey.

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diocotron instabilities, craters and stonehenge?

Unread post by MattEU » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:50 am

this is winging it as i am at work and cant spend much time on this but could this explain that amazing crater formation discussed before on the A curious anomaly? thread.

Not seperate events where the rim shot crater hit whatever was there before but the instability changing...

may also explain the area around it being slightly different and those little pock marks or craters?

Image

also wondering if those images can be applied to our ancient monuments like stonehenge, if thy were to do with harnessing or using the natural power of the electric universe? if these are part of the different energy patterns they may have used. werent there like other circles connected to them or connected via a path?

are there any large crater groups that reflect the change in the pattern?

as i said winging it and just wrote down what came to mind.... :)


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solrey
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by solrey » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:57 pm

Experiments on two-dimensional vortex patterns
The evolution of a strongly magnetized electron system is identical to that of an ideal two-dimensional (2-D) fluid; an electron column is equivalent to a fluid vortex. We have studied the stability of 2-D vortex patterns with electron columns confined in a Malmberg–Penning trap. The following cases are presented: the stability of N vortices arranged in a ring; the stability of N vortices arranged in a ring with a central vortex; the stability of more complicated vortex patterns.
Since we already know that Saturn has a very strong electromagnetic environment it just seems logical to consider that environment when describing the polar hexagon. As I see it, EM forces must be involved somehow.

btw, Wal Thornhill gets the credit for the diocotron instability hypothesis. I'm just trying to provide some corroboration of that idea for folks.

As Newton once said, "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."
cheers,
Tim
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
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Re: Saturn's Mimas shows strange Temperature Profile

Unread post by FS3 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:22 am

redeye wrote:Tethys and Dione were both found to exhibit "plumes" similar to Enceladus. Could this strange temperature feature on Mimas be evidence of a similar process?

Cheers!
No. More likely we do experience in this case a clear evidence of changed physical parameters (thermal conductivity) of soil after being hit by a discharge.

FS3

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solrey
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Re: Saturn's Mimas shows strange Temperature Profile

Unread post by solrey » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:18 pm

Maybe it was polarized in a strong discharge and not rotating in relation to e-field direction, basically electromagnetically locked. So the subsurface, below the thinish top layer of dust accumulated since the event, is imprinted from deposition like a "bowshock" on the upstream side and etched on the side of that huge crater lined up so well (coincidence, not) with the inner point of the V plus it's hexagonal indicating diocotron instability. Kind of looks like an impressionist painting of a comet in a way.

The discharge event might have looked something like this:

Image
comet west
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MGmirkin
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Re: Saturn's Mimas shows strange Temperature Profile

Unread post by MGmirkin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:04 pm

In all honesty, I'm reminded of the THEMIS pages relating to Mars' imaging by way of the thermal imager...

http://themis2.mars.asu.edu/features/sirenum
http://themis2.mars.asu.edu/features/noctis
The heat-seeking eye of THEMIS can spot the coarser and rockier portions of a landslide's debris by their residual warmth, shown in redder tints in the image. Late at night, rocky debris on Mars is still radiating heat absorbed during daytime, just as asphalt pavement does on Earth. At the same time of night, however, patches of ground mantled in dust (shown in bluer tints) have long since cooled off.
I'm wondering if similar line of thought applies here? They mention "daytime" temperatures. Whereas the THEMIS stuff mentions "nighttime" temperatures. But is the principle the same? Some difference between solid and loosely aggregated materials in how they heat up / cool down?

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~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by mharratsc » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:51 pm

From the article posted by Kc0itf:
The faster the ring rotated, the less circular the green jet stream became. Small eddies formed along its edges, which slowly became larger and stronger and forced the fluid within the ring into the shape of a polygon. By altering the rate at which the ring spun, the scientists could generate various shapes. “We could create ovals, triangles, squares, almost anything you like,” says Read. The bigger the difference in the rotation between the planet and the jet steam—that is the cylinder and the ring—the fewer sides the polygon had, the team reports in this month's issue of Icarus. Barbosa Aguiar and Read suggest that Saturn’s north polar jet stream spins at a rate relative to the rest of the atmosphere that favors a six-sided figure, hence the hexagon.
So the 'speed of rotation' in our solar system seems to be a constant. Might this be due to the frequency of the voltage in our little solar circuit, ya think? o.O

Mike H.
Mike H.

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webolife
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Re: Hexagon at Saturn's north pole

Unread post by webolife » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:40 am

Mike H, clarify "frequency of voltage"?
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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