Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Thu May 19, 2011 5:55 pm

then all lakes should be salt lakes, salt doesn't boil (of it it does, thats in conditions that should not allow the survival of any animal)

And we know it is not the case.
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby starbiter » Thu May 19, 2011 6:53 pm

It's amazing how many basins in the western US have salt deposits at there low point. Have You heard of the great SALT Lake of UT. The Bonneville SALT Flats go on for miles.

In the map below pretty much everything white has an abundance of salt.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 09&t=h&z=7

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 77&t=h&z=9

Please zoom in.

I've bobbed in the Dead Sea. It's hard to walk because the excess salt makes you so buoyant you tip over. Same with Mono Lake in CA.

If lakes drain to the sea, then seasonal storms will drain out the salt. If not, the Google map will be white when viewed in satellite mode.



Foot prints.

michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Fri May 20, 2011 2:44 am

Yet most lakes are not salt lakes. The Caspian sea doesn't have the same salt composition than oceans. We have geological record of cambrian permian seas that were on several parts of continents. Most mountains show seas footprint.

The rocky montain enclosed a part of the pacific when it grew. It was slowly boiled. If that kind of salt deposit was present anywhere in the planet, plants and agricultures would have failed...

watch : http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.1 ... 72&t=p&z=4
the sea of Okhotsk, Bering sea, east china sea are being slowly enclosed by the rise of japan mountains, the rise of Kamchatka mountains and the rise of peninsulas.

I am not a geologist. Geology is not perfect, somes theories like plate tectonics are imperfect. In my task the expanding earth theories explain better the facts and was only rejected in mainstream because they didn't know how matter was created (in past this theory was seriously discussed in geology).
But yet, they have probably enough geological records and explainations in order to correctly falsify the flood. Thats why EU theorists should be very cautious about making explaination in geology field without discussing with specialists in that field.
They are probably more open than cosmologist because they know plate tectonic is not perfect (no subduction found on mars, when they a found basalt sea floor and rift faults. indicating expansion) , and because they rely less on gigantic mathematical formulas.
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Fri May 20, 2011 5:03 am

Additionaly, north america is completly scared by rifts. You would be surprised that the great lakes of north america match with a geological rift. But not me, for me that is not a surprise that the great lakes of east africa and those of north america have the same explaination.

This rift is called the Keweenawan Rift, you can learn here : http://www.uwec.edu/jolhm/Interstate2006/history.htm
Image
Image
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Sat May 21, 2011 1:18 am

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=36.9 ... 86&t=p&z=5 in plate tectonics is seen as enclosed sea that will give birth to new mountains.
But in expanding earth it is seen as a birth of a new archipelago in the pacific, like the new zeland that left australia : http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-38. ... 72&t=p&z=4
This is confirmed by the fact that japan moved avay from korea of few meters during the last eathquake : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1184&start=705#p49266

On moon, mare are like sea spreading on earth :

topography map
Image
(see, the mare are the lower parts, like earth ocean. Like earth ocean the repartition of sea floor is asymetrical. moon has its sea on near-side, earth has its seas mostly in south hemisphere and in pacific side )

iron map
Image
Topography map matchs with iron map. like the high iron quantities in basalt of earth sea floor and lava.
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Sat May 21, 2011 4:40 am

The mare Orientale of the moon is a relatively small mare, located in "the far side of the moon" not with other mares.
So this mare is inside the high-lands of the far side and as I have shown before (see here ) there should be a multifloor pattern due to the magma pushing under a continent. Like the red sea, which opened recently, there should be multiple cliffs and mountains parallel to the the sea which is opening : see http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 77539&z=10 (same than the east african rift watch previous post)

It is the case :
Image
This can also be seen in google map : http://www.google.com/moon/#lat=-18.479 ... le&apollo= (there is also many rifts inside the lower part of the mare Orientale, see here )

Image

We see a caracteristic multi floor, which has a circular shape. Most seas on earth today are not circular, but the pacific had a circular shape before. Whatch in the following map, the blue part and dark green part are the oldest of the pacific. So the pacific was circular in the past, just like the mare Orientale :
Image

So my thesis is that craters are geological tensile folding of the planet's crust due to the magma pushing inside. like the geological rifts and vulcano on earth at the exception that lava has not reached surface. The crust become thiner and thiner and it is not rare to see craters inside craters (which is in fact the famous "multi floor" pattern we are talking about). (It is also not rare to see them aligned because on earth sismic event and vulcanos are aligned too.)

The other mares of the moon, mostly located in the near side of the moon, are not necessarily circular even if they most are circular. Rifts are plentiful in these mare. These rifts are called Lunar rilles and you can find lot of pictures in google if you want.
For our case, I am interested by one rille, the Rima Ariadaeus which show a pattern that can only be explained if this rille is in fact exactly like the earth's rifts. This is a shift in the line, only explainable by tectonic movement.
Shift on Rima Ariadaeus rille
Image
same on earth rifts:
Image
This kind of shift is clearly visible in the south east pacific's rift
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby starbiter » Sun May 22, 2011 2:53 am

platyhelminth wrote:Yet most lakes are not salt lakes. The Caspian sea doesn't have the same salt composition than oceans. We have geological record of cambrian permian seas that were on several parts of continents. Most mountains show seas footprint.

The rocky montain enclosed a part of the pacific when it grew. It was slowly boiled. If that kind of salt deposit was present anywhere in the planet, plants and agricultures would have failed...

watch : http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.1 ... 72&t=p&z=4
the sea of Okhotsk, Bering sea, east china sea are being slowly enclosed by the rise of japan mountains, the rise of Kamchatka mountains and the rise of peninsulas.

I am not a geologist. Geology is not perfect, somes theories like plate tectonics are imperfect. In my task the expanding earth theories explain better the facts and was only rejected in mainstream because they didn't know how matter was created (in past this theory was seriously discussed in geology).
But yet, they have probably enough geological records and explainations in order to correctly falsify the flood. Thats why EU theorists should be very cautious about making explaination in geology field without discussing with specialists in that field.
They are probably more open than cosmologist because they know plate tectonic is not perfect (no subduction found on mars, when they a found basalt sea floor and rift faults. indicating expansion) , and because they rely less on gigantic mathematical formulas.


Hello again plathelminth: I'm glad You mentioned the Caspian Sea. It seems to fit the model one might expect if legend and myth are to be trusted. I've noticed that You don't seem to consider legend and myth in your thinking.

The Caspian Sea has 1/3 the salt of the oceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea

As i mentioned earlier, if a lake or inland sea drains to the oceans, the amount of salt will diminish over time. The Caspian doesn't have a drainage today. But when thinking with a catastrophic model, what we see today is not a limitation. Nothing we experience today comes close. The recent tsunami in Japan would not have been noticed or recorded during the worldwide events described in Worlds in Collision, which this forum is based on. It was reported that rivers, lakes, and even the ocean boiled in places. This caused evaporation, which caused incessant rains. Rains are often exasperated over mountains. If You look at a Google Map of the area You'll notice a drainage North of Georgia.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 36&t=p&z=5

As the rains subsided the drainage to the Black Sea, then to the Mediterranean, and finally to the Atlantic would become dry. The annual rains today can't reach the Atlantic, so the salinity remains stuck at todays level.

Also, not every valley would get sloshed, depending on a number of factors. It seems the Pacific traveled East during a sever slosh, flooding the basins of the US West. It would also be possible for salt covered areas to be duned, or sloshed over.

I hope you'll keep an open mind towards legend, myth, and plasma physics. This doesn't preclude an expanding Earth. But if you choose to ignore legend, myth, and plasma physics, You might wish to start a forum devoted to an expanding Earth, without considering EU concepts.

An overview of The Electric Universe can be found at the link below.

http://www.holoscience.com/

The link below discusses the history of EU.

http://www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=3

michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

www.EU-geology.com

http://www.michaelsteinbacher.com
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Sun May 22, 2011 6:47 am

Hello again plathelminth: I'm glad You mentioned the Caspian Sea It seems to fit the model one might expect if legend and myth are to be trusted. I've noticed that You don't seem to consider legend and myth in your thinking.

I have just one thing to say, watch the geological story or the Caspian Sea, it is available in the net. Additionaly, there is enough informations in all the parts of geology to completly falsify a planetary sized flood.
However it is possible that country sized floods did occur many times during pre-history. We know the mediterranean sea, black sea, and caspian sea have shown various flooding (once again, watch the geological history). The mediterranean sea was flooded about 5 millions year ago, too old for being the "recorded" biblical flood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
Also, de-glaciation events led to country sized floods in past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age .

The black sea, however, is said to have been flooded much more recently. About 5000-6000years ago. Its salinity, like the caspian sea, was before much lower than ocean. After this date, black sea increased salinity and areas equal to the area of grece get flooded. see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... a-hist.png
Image

My theory is that the first real civilization was born in the black sea, It is supported by the record of early writing : the Old European / Vinča / Danube script see http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm . This writing is older than middle east's writing by several tousand years. Mainstream researchers call it "proto-writing" for the only reasons that they are unable to translate it...
Image
There is also plasma looking symboles and notice the presence of the Swastika in vinca writing.

6000 or 8000 years ago this very advanced civilization get flooded, its inhabitants had no choice but to migrate. This event did match with the spead of indo-european langage and people : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis . Its inhabitants could even have migred much farer, .
Also it is possible that writing in china might be connected to this black sea civilization, the Jiahu symbols match the date of vinca scripts.

For someone who want to make link between mythologies, why not linking the Noah flood with the Atlantide history ? Well, lets do it right now http://www.black-sea-atlantis.com/black-sea-atlantis/ & http://www.black-sea-atlantis.com/ .

There is also lot of very very wild conspiracy theories about the lost atlants (like their "racial" identity, or what did they become when they migred in other contries.)
http://www.google.com/search?q=authorit ... eanderthal

starbiter wrote:http://www.holoscience.com/

The link below discusses the history of EU.

I have already read many pages of this site. I am continuing to read it at a steady pace.
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby Sparky » Sun May 22, 2011 8:59 am

Image

thank you for this information....i am not sure, but i think all of these symbols are plasma instabilities!

It looks like they could count to 5!.. ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby platyhelminth » Sun May 22, 2011 5:01 pm

I personaly suspect the atlanteans had some sort of very advanced science. Thats a mad theory but they may have plasma technology... :o

No I am laughing :lol: , thats much more probable they saw these pattern in the sky.
So ...
We will see if it is empirism versus dogmatism OR if it is just another battle between different dogmas.
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue May 24, 2011 6:27 am

Hello Platy: Earlier you challenged the idea of sloshing oceans, claiming lakes should be salty. I pointed out many lakes and dry lakes in the western US that are salty. You dismissed this. I mentioned that a lake that drains to the sea would obviously lose it's salt over time. Since then i've tried to find a lake that doesn't drain to the sea that contains fresh water without any success. There is one lake in Australia that freshens to an extant during flood stage, but as the water evaporates the salt level rises quickly.

If your going to issue challenges You should at least listen to the response, not just plow ahead with your preferred model.

michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby PersianPaladin » Tue May 24, 2011 9:17 am

I think both of you are on the right track....give or take a few ambiguities.

I'm suggesting that the earth (as well as other planets with a longer history of an internal magnetic field) has had quite a variety of forces influencing its surface. I also want to say that the everyday force of water, ice, wind and sun can have powerful effects alone; and you can observe that by noticing potholes in road surfaces or giant cracks in the concrete sidewalk.

And water erosion can produce some interesting surfaces:-

http://i53.tinypic.com/2eyfkv9.jpg
Shallow rills in the desert after an intense rain shower

temporary Dendritic sand formations on the beach (from water):-
Image

Image

Image

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 976449.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/976449

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/59/02/ ... 2a4639.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/590287
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue May 24, 2011 10:01 am

PersianPaladin wrote:I think both of you are on the right track....give or take a few ambiguities.

I'm suggesting that the earth (as well as other planets with a longer history of an internal magnetic field) has had quite a variety of forces influencing its surface. I also want to say that the everyday force of water, ice, wind and sun can have powerful effects alone; and you can observe that by noticing potholes in road surfaces or giant cracks in the concrete sidewalk.

And water erosion can produce some interesting surfaces:-

http://i53.tinypic.com/2eyfkv9.jpg
Shallow rills in the desert after an intense rain shower

temporary Dendritic sand formations on the beach (from water):-
Image

Image

Image

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 976449.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/976449

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/59/02/ ... 2a4639.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/590287



Hello PP: Thanks for the erosion images. They remind me of the patterns in the desert.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 4&t=p&z=11

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=p&z=12

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 9&t=p&z=10

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 9&t=p&z=10

Fresh soft sediment is easily eroded into the shapes You supplied.

Then something needed to lithify the canyon walls. In the words of "The Church Lady", from Saturday Night Live, could it have been Satan/Venus.

I don't see any common ground between Platy's model and mine. No cum bi ah. Unfortunately, my model requires a complete rejection of the standard geology model, also. There's little or no common ground between a billion year model, and a catastrophic, less than 10,000 year model.

all by myself, michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

www.EU-geology.com

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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby GaryN » Tue May 24, 2011 11:05 am

all by myself, michael


Not all by yourself at all, michael. I might have some differences of opinion
with some of your mechanisms too, but overall, I think geology has become like
astronomy. The controlling institutions have models which, despite ever
increasing evidence of alternative scenarios, are protected at all costs. There is
just so much at stake, jobs and reputations mainly, to even admit to a chink
in their armour.
Fast and furious is how I see the majority of changes brought upon our, and
other worlds, with energies beyond our comprehension. Of course there are slower,
ongoing changes, but they pale in comparison to the major electric and plasma
events.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Catastrophism vs. Gradualism - a false debate?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue May 24, 2011 11:15 am

Hello Gary: You said,

[...]
Of course there are slower, ongoing changes, but they pale in comparison to the major electric and plasma
events.


me again,
I couldn't agree more. With a 3,500, to 10,000 year model, and the depth of the new material covering the Earth, any slow change process would be difficult to see. There is no time to erode granite, or basalt. And a process requiring millions of years would be overwhelmed by the catastrophic events described in Worlds in Collision.

all by myself, plus one, michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

www.EU-geology.com

http://www.michaelsteinbacher.com
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