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Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby jjohnson » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:40 pm

A lot of physical phenomena are complex, in that several interactions can be occurring at the same time. Some may be strongly dependent on only 1 or 2 of the types of events or influences, or many may depend on one or more series of linked events, or some combination of the above. Psychologists and statisticians (and actuaries) have derived very sophisticated evaluations which take large data sets of things like human actions and responses under various, often but not always lab-controlled, situations or events or pressures, and try to extract what depends most strongly on what, and what has little apparent linkage to what.

We probably have large data sets (temperature, cloud cover fraction at various altitudes,ocean currents and temperature, storm histories, biomass coverage, and so on with regard to weather phenomena, in the weather community, and we have a long history of sunspots and solar events such as CME's and GRB's and other events in the helio-astronomical profession, and biologists have tree ring samples and animal and plant types and population records, and archeologists have tree rings and ice-core samples and so on. Do these relate in some way? If so, HOW do they relate? What are the confidence limits of the conclusions, or correlation factors? I'd bet there are testing and sampling experts who could do multivariate analyses and come up with some interesting and plausible first-pass results, which in turn could spur closer looks with better data to improve this science of weather.

Don't look at me! I'm just a dumb ex-airplane driver and architect. I think the Danes are onto something, though.
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby jjohnson » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:17 am

Note that today's TPOD by Stephan Smith( Monday, 21 Dec 09) sums all this up nicely, as well as brings in the results from the TIMED satellite findings as further confirmation of the coupling between solar output, cosmic rays, cloud cover, and climate on Earth.
Smokers (see Kevin Costner's movie, Water World) rejoice! - the global warming is actually cooling!
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby jjohnson » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:27 am

And for readers new to this general thread - climate interactions between Sun and Earth, see also Charles Chandler's discussion on Electric Tornadoes from last July 15, 2009 for related stuff, other insights. (Use search at top and enter Charles or Chandler).
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby davesmith_au » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 am

'Ere ya go, Jim (and anyone else who want to take a gander...)

Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Cheers, Dave.
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby TOROID » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:11 pm

We can end this debate right here and right now.
The Club of Rome back in 1972 released a book called The Limits to Growth.
In it they admitted that global warming was simply an idea to bring about a change in peoples attitudes. Many of the members including Al Gore made statements about the science being made up.
Why oh why does nobody take any notice of this book, they sold over 3 million copies? All they do is keep arguing about whether global warming is real or is happening when all along its a just a big con to tax and control the living daylights out of us.
And do you know what really gets me laughing? The fact that they have already told everyone its a con back in 1972 then they sit back, rake all the carbon credit cash into their already bulging bank accounts and laugh themselves silly about how everyone is buying it hook line and sinker!
:mrgreen: See...I'm laughing with them! 8-)

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/earth-day.htm

To say that the sun has little effect on the earth's climate is just the most naively ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
The more preposterous the lie the more easily people seem to buy into it! Sad but true!
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:34 pm

TOROID wrote:We can end this debate right here and right now.
The Club of Rome back in 1972 released a book called The Limits to Growth.
In it they admitted that global warming was simply an idea to bring about a change in peoples attitudes. Many of the members including Al Gore made statements about the science being made up.
Why oh why does nobody take any notice of this book, they sold over 3 million copies? All they do is keep arguing about whether global warming is real or is happening when all along its a just a big con to tax and control the living daylights out of us.
And do you know what really gets me laughing? The fact that they have already told everyone its a con back in 1972 then they sit back, rake all the carbon credit cash into their already bulging bank accounts and laugh themselves silly about how everyone is buying it hook line and sinker!
:mrgreen: See...I'm laughing with them! 8-)

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/earth-day.htm

To say that the sun has little effect on the earth's climate is just the most naively ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
The more preposterous the lie the more easily people seem to buy into it! Sad but true!

Hi Toroid,
Have you read the book? If you have, can you give us the quote and page number please? A lot of peole on this forum would be interested I'm sure.
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby sunsettommy » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:03 pm

junglelord wrote:Sunspot activity is a sign of magnetic field strength. But it is the cosmic rays that seed the aerosol particles to make clouds. The relationship between the two is clear. Don't worry about splitting hairs.
;)


The sunspots are still there but not visible because the suns magnetic field is too low to make them visible.It is at this time at a 50 year low meaning it has never been this low by instruments designed to measure the sun's magnetic field.

There is a better connection between the earths temperature changes and magnetic field changes of the sun,unfortunately I lost all the information in my old forum that crashed.But I saw the charts and the connection was even more impressive than the sunspot/earth temperature connection.

I think this is an indication that magnetic and electrical fields are a neglected area of science research on the Earths climate,since it is noted that the strongest warming is centered at the MAGNETIC North Pole and the strongest cooling is at the MAGNETIC South pole.But hardly anyone is noticing it.

:)
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby GaryN » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:06 pm

sunsettommy posted:

I think this is an indication that magnetic and electrical fields are a neglected area of science research on the Earths climate,since it is noted that the strongest warming is centered at the MAGNETIC North Pole and the strongest cooling is at the MAGNETIC South pole.But hardly anyone is noticing it.


I have wondered before about the cooling mechanism at the poles, after having read about frozen tropical plant parts being recovered from depths of over 1500 feet, in cores from drilling at Prudhoe Bay. The permafrost can reach 5000 foot depths in Russia. All of the deepest permafrost is found below the Auroral Oval, in the north, but I haven't found any info on the Antarctic thermal gradient. Not sure if anyone has deep-drilled down there.
That lead me to believe that there must be something going on to cool the ground to such depths. These two items would seem to be the best options:

Thermoelectric cooling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

Magnetocaloric cooling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_refrigeration

Changes in the suns behaviour might have effects that run counter to our beliefs if there is an unrecognised process in action, and perhaps the electron (or hole) flow direction could heat one pole and cool the other, in the case of the thermoelectric proceess?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby Siggy_G » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:50 am

Grey Cloud wrote: (...) Hi Toroid,
Have you read the book? If you have, can you give us the quote and page number please? A lot of peole on this forum would be interested I'm sure.


Here is an excerpt:

http://www.clubofrome.org/docs/confs/meadows_abstract_21_08_04.pdf

I'd say they have several good points related to the problems arising with the exponential growth of human societies; food demand, dirty industry, military, debt, short-term solutions etc.

Perhaps the CO2-campaign is intended to enforce moderation and cleaner technology, but in effect, it seems like the whole thing turns out to be yet another financial and political game.
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby TOROID » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:16 am

re: Club of Rome.

The original book is said to have been published in 30 languages and sold 30 million copies.
Agh! Too many 3's! (to believe or not the 3's hold the answer)! ;)

I haven't read the original and the only copy available these days is a re-edited version with changes and omissions....for obvious reasons. :shock:

I agree that the fundamental reason for it all is to prevent human meltdown but why the ridiculous lies and scams?
Many hundreds of people have already made themselves extremely rich through this global wallet warming!
Mr Gore for instance is said to be worth $100 million, something he's not likely to brag about I'm sure! :roll:

If they are truly after saving mankind from himself then why does it always have to involve them becoming uber rich in the process? Are they not capitalising from the very carbon which they are trying to prevent us from producing?
The tree hugging fraternity has been after hitting big industry with penalties since the 60's
and once the dollar signs are spotted there's no stopping some people.
There are plenty of people who care about the planet and mankind but not many who condone lies, scams, fraud, deceit and worse still the waving of their hyper inflated bank statements to ward off the evil spirits of the manufacturing sector!

If I can find a link to an original copy I'll let you know.
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:10 am

Personally, I wouldn't get too excited about a thirty-odd year old book. There were several of this type of book back in the 70s when environmental issues became trendy. More have been written since. It's all just experts trying to justify their existence.

A COMPARISON OF THE LIMITS TO GROWTH WITH THIRTY YEARS OF REALITY
http://www.csiro.au/files/files/plje.pdf
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby redeye » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:51 am

Here in Britain we have been in the grips of the worst cold period there has been in my lifetime, which isnae all that long really. I've read that this is due to a kink in the jet stream causing winds to be pushing out over the arctic and in from the east and Scandinavia. In Scotland we usually get temperate, wet air pushing in from the west.

I was wondering if the change in the jet stream could be influenced by the recent reduction in Solar magnetism as per Birkelands terrela experiments:

We will now pass on to experiments that in my opinion have brought about the most important discoveries in the long chain of experimental analogies to terrestrial and cosmic phenomena that I have produced. In the experiments represented in figs. 248 a-e, there are some small white patches on the globe, which are due to a kind of discharge that, under ordinary circumstances, is disruptive, and which radiates from points on the cathode. If the globe has a smooth surface and is not magnetised, the disruptive discharges come rapidly one after another, and are distributed more or less uniformly all over the globe (see a). On the other hand, if the globe is magnetised, even very slightly, the patches from which the disruptive discharges issue, arrange themselves then in two zones parallel with the magnetic equator of the globe; and the more powerfully the globe is magnetised, the nearer do they come to the equator (see b, c, d). With a constant magnetisation, the zones of patches will be found near the equator if the discharge-tension is low, but far from the equator if the tension is high.


From plasma-universe.com: Texts:On Possible Electric Phenomena in Solar Systems and Nebulae

(I'm pretty sure I've read this or something very similar on this forum before)

Some other links of varying relevance:

Freeman Dyson speaking about climate modeling and stratospheric cooling

Great Global Warming Swindle ABC Debates Part 1/9

Heh Heh Heh

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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby junglelord » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:46 am

Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura: Global Warming part 1 of 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svRUcX9Q9yU
I agree biggest ponzi scheme ever.

Meanwhile NASA space weather has this report about atmospheric optics and cold weather, but nothing about any question if this does not in any small, medium, or large way, refute global warming racketeers.
COLD SUN: You know its cold when the rising sun shines through icicles ... in Florida. Mark Staples took this rare photo overlooking Little Lake Santa Fe near Waldo, FL, on Jan. 7th:
http://spaceweather.com/swpod2010/08jan ... qmaqs2l2i6

"The golden sunrise turned these colorless spikes of ice into something resembling the fiery trails we occasional see from here when NASA launches a space shuttle," says Staples. "The warmth of the sun quickly reduced these Florida-cicles, but it was a rare a beautiful sight while it lasted."

This is, however, just the tip of the icicle. The remarkable cold, which has struck not only the United States, but also England and China, is creating widespread displays of atmospheric optics. The sun shining through ice in the air produces sundogs, sun pillars, and a variety of luminous rings and arcs
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby junglelord » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:20 pm

Another NASA Space Weather report....nothing about Global Warming to be questioned, just nice pictures too look at, move along, nothing to talk about here with relation to CO2 emissions and Global Warming, Oh look the Polar Caps have not melted, the Ocean is not rising....in fact we are in a mini ice-age. Don't ever expect NASA to state the ovbious, rather too over look it. No connections to false politics and secret cabals, not from our sacred scientist.

ISLAND SNOW: Last week when NASA's Terra satellite orbited over Europe, it saw something very unusual. The normally temperate British Isles were completely covered by snow. From an altitude of 420 miles, Terra's MODIS (Moderate-resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer) camera snapped this picture:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=42237

It's not only Britian. Heavy snowfall and record-low temperatures have spread across Europe, closing schools, paralyzing airports, and downing power lines. Much of North America and parts of Asia are experiencing the same brutal cold.

The cause of the phenomenon could be the Arctic Oscillation (AO). The AO is a seesawing strengthening and weakening of semi-permanent areas of low and high atmospheric pressure in the Arctic and the mid-latitudes. One consequence of the oscillation’s negative phase is cold, snowy weather in Eurasia and North America during the winter months. The extreme negative dip of the Arctic Oscillation Index in December 2009 was the lowest monthly value observed for the past six decades.

On the bright side, these conditions are ideal for many forms of atmospheric optics and fantastic patterns of frost on the ground and other surfaces.


Thats a joke, on the bright side....what about on the ovbious side?
The cause of the phenomenon could be a sign that our so called experts have global warming all wrong....
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Re: Do sunspots cause climate change?

Unread postby RayTomes » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:23 pm

A number of criticisms of the paper on the relationship between sunspot numbers and temperature on Earth actually state specifically that the author does not deny that the sun is affecting temperatures on earth. Lets face it, you would be a fool to say that variations in the sun's heat do not affect temperatures on earth as it is the source of all our heat. Rather, they were being picky about a couple of small points and a calculation error.

Let us look at some established facts regarding temperatures on Earth and Solar variations.

Variations in the Sun's output are detected by a number of means. One of these is C14 variations which result from N14 getting converted to C14 in the upper atmosphere. The variations in C14 atmosphere content can be determined by sampling C14 from tree rings which are of an exact known age as carbon in trees comes from the atmosphere. In wikipedia we see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_variation a graph of C14 variations. These guys always plot their graphs back to front, but look at this one from that page:

800px-Carbon14_with_activity_labels.svg.png
C14 variation due to Solar variations


You can see quite clearly the cause of the medieval warm period, the cooler period known as the little ice age, and the modern rise again. On this page http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/30/crugate_analysis/page2.html you can see the two graphs produce by IPCC in 1990 and then in 2001. The 1990 one looks just like the solar variations with a medieval warm period and a little ice age and a modern rise (note that time runs the other way). The second one is quite different and shows the hockey stick shape that is totally unsupported by historical data. These guys have hijacked science for their own purposes. The last IPCC report is based on a pack of lies.

hhlamb_1000_years.jpg
HH Lamb - Earth temperatures from IPCC 1990


As anyone with a brain in their head will know, earth temperatures are affected by solar output. On all timescales there are cycles in the sun and on earth. The notable ones relevant to recent events are three cycles.

1. A cycle of 2300 years called the Halstatt (sometimes spelled differently) cycle which is also shown on the solar variation page above. The last temperature low was around 1600 and so we are on the rapidly rising part of the cycle for hundreds of years to come.

2. A cycle averaging 208 years called the de Vries cycle. This was at a low just before 1900 and at a high around 1995. We are now into the down phase of this cycle until 2100.

3. A cycle of around 53 years (it varies slightly from cycle to cycle but is visible back for 2000 years+). This was at a low ~1910, a high ~1940, a low ~1968 and a high in ~1995 or so. We are in the down phase now until 2020 or a little beyond.

Any effect that human caused CO2 has needs to be added to these natural cycles. It is not as great an effect as has been stated by IPCC for two main reasons.

A. The instrumental temperature record has an upward drift because of the urban heat island effect. Rural areas show a different story. Records are contaminated with urban temperatures which do not reflect global changes. This can be confirmed also by satellite measurements which show an increase that is only about half as fast.

B. Many climate scientists think that CO2 effects on heat retention must have some positive feedback effects added and so multiply the known changes by a factor of typically 3 to get an estimate of effects. The most reliable analysis shows that in fact the feedback is negative, as anyone that studies Lovelock's "Gaia" would expect.
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