The Sun

[junglelord]

Interesting spin ratios. I like that kind of thing. Thanks.

[seasmith]

Otherworldly Solar Eclipse
February 25, 2009:

For the first time, a spacecraft from Earth has captured hi-resolution images of a solar eclipse while orbiting another world.

Kaguya is the largest mission to the Moon since the Apollo program. Launched in late 2007, the spacecraft consists of a mother ship plus two smaller orbiters that work together to relay data to Earth even from the Moon's farside. Kaguya bristles with 13 scientific instruments powered by 3.5 kilowatts of electricity, enough to light up good-sized home on Earth. So far the spacecraft has laser-mapped the Moon's surface in 3D, searched polar craters for signs of lunar ice, probed the gravitational field of the farside of the Moon—and much more.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009 ... ist1066595

[tolenio]

Hello,

I would like to use this post as a white-board to post some thoughts on a possible solar model.

In the past I have put up a couple of posts regarding solar wind leaking into Earth's magnetoshere through cracks in the earth's magnetosphere. This plasma is then repulsed to weaker magnetic field areas near the equator and enroute is responsible for weather fronts.

What if the solar model is not unlike the plasma model I propose for earth's's magnetospheric model...?

The sun's heliosphere has cracks. Interstellar plasma leaks into those cracks. The magnetic field of the sun then repulses that interstellar plasma to its equatorial zones. While the interstellar plasma is enroute to the sun's equator it is responsible for some of the solar activity we see.

In the case of the sun we are looking at magnetic knock-on and knock-off affects of plasma trapped in the sun's heliosphere and unable to escape the magnetic bubble.

The solar cycle would then be tied to the incoming amounts of interstellar plasma. Since we know that plasma is attracted to or replused by magnetic fields based on its polarity, a person could postulate that interstellar plasma is more dense along galactic magnetic field lines. As our sun passes from one galacitic magnetic field line to the next there are regular varying densities of plasma as it orbits the galaxy, with the densest plasma along galactic magnetic field lines. This would put the galactic magnetic field lines about 11 years apart at our sun's current orbital speed.

Does this sound reasonable.

Later,
Tom

[MGmirkin]

Well, aside from the fact that "magnetic field lines" do not exist in real 3D space... They are only conceptual tools to help people visualize the strength and direction of the magnetic field. So, it's not like we can "fly through a magnetic field line" in any real sense. The "field line" is just a line on paper, denoting the relative strength of the magnetic field at some arbitrary location. If I recall correctly, the denser the "field lines" on a given diagram the stronger the magnetic field in the location. In a spherical geometry, it may be that an engineer only uses a spaced out 30 "field lines" at various points around the circumference of the sphere. That's not to say that the magnetic field only EXISTS in those 30 regions. Realistically, there should be infinitely many field lines at a given radius (kind of like shells; and of course there would be infinitely many shells of strengths varying with distance), making a perfect continuum and they should be redrawn every instant depending on how the electric currents that spawn the magnetic field change.

(Real Properties of Electromagnetic Fields and Plasma in the Cosmos)
http://members.cox.net/dascott3/IEEE-Tr ... ug2007.pdf

Proposing that magnetic field lines move around, break, merge, reconnect, or recombine is an error based on the false assumption that the lines are real entities in the first place. This is an example of reifying an abstract theoretical concept. Field lines are not real-world 3-D entities and thus cannot do anything. Like mathematical singularities, field lines are pure abstractions and cannot be reified into being real 3-D material objects.

(Tim Thompson – A Rebuttal)
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/Rejoinder.pdf

All it takes to understand this argument is to recognize the clear difference between 1) conceptual constructs that are convenient tools for thinking about and visualizing a process, and 2) the physical process itself. The former (the concept) exists only in one‘s mind (or as a draftsman‘s artifice). It does not exist in three-dimensional space. The latter (the process) concerns the movement or interaction of things that really do exist in our world. Once this difference is fully grasped, it is easy to see that magnetic field lines do not (cannot) do anything in the real world – because they do not exist in the real world. I remember well the undergrad who once asked me if electric fields were really red (because I always used red colored chalk when I sketched them on the blackboard). I hope I convinced him that E-fields didn‘t have any given color.

Similarly ... magnetic field lines do not have any substance. And they do not move. They are instantaneous descriptors of (the magnitude and direction of) a vector field – and nothing more.

What we ought to conclude from this example are the following points:

• Magnetic field lines are only convenient concepts – nothing more. They are not loci or contours of constant magnetic flux density (field strength). They just indicate the field‘s direction. In regions where they are close together the field is stronger than where they are widely separated.
• Therefore, sketching magnetic field lines can help us visualize the shape and strength of magnetic fields.
• They can help us to sketch the net result (vector sum) if and when two or more fields interact (are superimposed on each other).
• We can only draw magnetic field lines (in cases not involving permanent ferromagnetic magnets) by considering the electric currents that create those fields.
• Magnetic lines of force do not actually exist in three-dimensional space anymore than lines of latitude or longitude do.
• If a field moves from one instant to another, we cannot use 'streaming video' to watch a given line move and change shape. This is because we must re-draw a complete set of lines at each instant. It isn't the same line that has moved, it is the field that has changed. The two sets of lines describe the field at those two different times.
• Magnetic lines of force do not move anymore than lines of longitude do. A determined unwillingness to recognize this fact has led to the idea that lines move toward each other, touch, merge, and then release energy. I have said many times that this last notion, if applied to circles of longitude that come together and 'merge' at Earth's poles, could be proposed as causing gravitational energy releases at those locations.
• There is no such process as 'magnetic merging' or 'reconnection' of magnetic field lines in the real world any more than the 'rubber-band' analogy is a real process.

(D. E. Scott Rebuts T. Bridgman)
http://members.cox.net/dascott3/RebutTB.pdf

there is a big difference between showing the beginnings and endings of such lines (that extend beyond the edge of our diagram) and the claim that they go out an unlimited distance and never return. When engineers sketch magnetic field diagrams of a permanent magnet (via a conceptual tool - magnetic lines), we are always careful to show exactly the same number of lines leaving one pole as we show returning to the other pole. If fifteen lines go off the page from the North Pole, fifteen lines will be shown coming in from the edge of the paper into the South Pole. That's what Maxwell's equation Div B = 0 implies and requires. There is no such thing as a magnetic monopole.

Equivalently, there is no such thing as open contour lines on a topographical map.

There is no such thing as open isobars on a weather map.

It's just that simple. Helioseismologists and astrophysicists ought to stop using this erroneous concept22. 'Open magnetic field lines' do not exist in real space - nor even on paper (if our paper is large enough).

So, yeah, have to be careful about reifying "magnetic field lines."

~Michael

[seasmith]

MGmirkin wrote:

So, yeah, have to be careful about reifying "magnetic field lines."

Reifying Any lines really. They are only concepts signifying a path, chord, tangent, 'edge', border, vector or the like.
Think At Least in 3D.
Slice an onion and the layers appear as
lines.
@

s

[MGmirkin]

Sounds about right...

~MG

[moonreft]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuA-dkKvrd0

Real time magnetic field lines.

I have no idea how you could say they don't exist in 3D.

(Been a lurker for several months and enjoy this site, keep up the good work)

[tolenio]

Hi,

I am dissapointed.

I propose a solar model depiciting a heliosphere with cracks allowing interstellar wind to leak in and cause solar weather, and all I get is a debate on the current consensus of magnetic field lines.

This is no better than the general consensus we fight for the electric universe.

Take "magnetic field lines" out of the model I propose and replace it with "regular varying magnetic field intensity" and be done with it.

Higher areas of magnetic field intenstity would attract more interstellar plasma and our orbit around the galaxy would bring varying interstellar plasma into heliosphere cracks.

Please get beyond a consensus debate on magnetic field lines.

Later,
Tom

[seasmith]

~
Tolenio wrote:

...through cracks in the earth's magnetosphere.

Tolenio,

I'm not really getting your allusion to "cracks" in the magnetosphere.
Would you have an alternative description, in keeping with the fluid nature of plasma and enveloping (planetary) spheres ?
Or, do you see a magnetosphere as having a macro clastic or crystalline structure/form ??

[ my mental hebetude disappoints me as well, sometimes ... ]

cheers,
s

[tolenio]

Hello,

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/sol ... e_ssu.html

Stormy Space Weather Slips Through the Cracks
12.03.03
Immense cracks in the Earth's magnetic field remain open for hours, allowing the solar wind to gush through and power stormy space weather, according to new observations from the IMAGE and Cluster satellites.

The cracks were detected before but researchers now know they can remain open for long periods, rather than opening and closing for just very brief intervals. This new discovery about how the Earth's magnetic shield is breached is expected to help space physicists give better estimates of the effects of severe space weather.

[seasmith]

~
tolenio's citatation re "cracks":

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/sol ... e_ssu.html

... when the solar wind contained a magnetic field that was oriented in the opposite direction to a portion of the Earth's field. In these regions, the two magnetic fields would interconnect through a process known as "magnetic reconnection," forming a crack in the shield through which the electrically charged particles of the solar wind could flow

Now i understand. You are using the NASA"s mechanistic model with "solar wind" and "crack(s) in the shield" as descriptors for clearly electro-dynamic processes.
Perhaps if you tweaked your model to reflect instances of electro-magnetic induction, repulsion and conductance, you may get more hits on this EU forum.
I am not detracting from your underlying theory in any way.

While the aurora was being recorded by IMAGE, the 4-satellite Cluster constellation flew far above IMAGE, directly through the crack, and detected solar wind ions streaming through.

They don't give a date. Is this the same "Magnetic Portals" event from last October, that was covered in this thread ?

http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... f=3&t=1155

~s~

[tolenio]

Hi,

Lets look at plams polarity and how plasma would behave based on the repulsive attractive nature of magnetism.

The magnetosphere is a magnetic bubble. We know that solar wind plasma leaks into this magnetic bubble and that solar wind carries with it magnetic polarization.

If the plasma was of the same polarity of the magnetic bubble it leaked into it would be repulsed to areas in the bubble where the magnetic field was the weakest. It would be repulsed from areas of strong magnetic field.

Is it coincidence that there is a low magnetic inensity field over South America and that is where lightening seems to proliferate?

.



Solar plasma leaking into the nothern hemisphere of earth would be repulsed to the equitorial zones where the magnetic field was weaker. Causing weather variation as it moved.

This would be the exact same reason why the south pole of Mars would be melting for it is the opposite polarity.

Now what if the same model works for the heliosphere and interstellar plasma? Interstallar plasma leaks into cracks of the heliosphere and is repulsed to weaker magnetic field zones at the sun's equator, creating solar weather as it moves towards the solar equator.

Later,
Tom

[MGmirkin]

I am dissapointed.

I propose a solar model depicting a heliosphere with cracks allowing interstellar wind to leak in and cause solar weather, and all I get is a debate on the current consensus of magnetic field lines.

I'm sorry you feel the discussion was not germane. Simply trying to make sure we DON'T fall into the same traps as the average astronomer when speaking of "field lines."

"a person could postulate that interstellar plasma is more dense along galactic magnetic field lines. As our sun passes from one galactic magnetic field line to the next there are regular varying densities of plasma as it orbits the galaxy, with the densest plasma along galactic magnetic field lines. This would put the galactic magnetic field lines about 11 years apart at our sun's current orbital speed."

IE, the field lines are not "real" entities to be spaced out and only have "something happen" at the particular place an engineer drew a line by convention. There's no physical "rope" or "filament" of magnetism at that spot and nowhere else on the page, or in space. Now, that's not to say there couldn't *BE* filaments of some type evenly or irregularly spaced and electrical in nature. Just that they wouldn't be per se equivalent to magnetic field lines. In fact, if there's a current they would probably generate their own "field lines" around them. But they'd be somewhat differently structured than a simple line. More like a cylinder perpendicular to the current filament. But perhaps that's neither here nor there...

Anywho. Back to ye olde discussion. Wherever it happens to meander. Assume we've probably discussed field lines versus actual magnetic fields versus electric filaments enough for one day, eh? ;o]

[tolenio]

Hello,

Again, how would intersterstellar plasma behave when trapped in a helipshpere? Assuming that instellar plasma leaks into the heliosphere in a similar manner it leaks into the magnetosphere.

If it was oppositely magnetically polarized to the area it leaked into the heliosphere how would the plasma move within the heliosphere?

Would it be repulsed to the weakest magnetic field intensity areas of the heliosphere?

Would it head for the equatorial region and along the way be responsible for solar weather such as sunspots...



Later,
Tom

[Solar]

Firstly, nomenclature is very important. That’s one of the things that gets done ‘round these parts. The language used by the mainstream to describe ongoing dynamics in the cosmos is sorely lacking in appropriateness with regard to electrical interactions with plasma.

I remember you from the original forum. I remember you posting a vid that showed the influence of a magnet (maybe two) on metal ring suspend from a string. You didn’t post much, but I do recall thinking that your thought processes are not in mainstream mode at all and that you were intricately digging around with the processes. That’s a good thing!

I had no idea what you meant using the word “cracks” in your initial post. Now that you’ve linked to the relevant NASA article it’s important to dissect the nomenclature problem as has been properly assessed by fellow forum members. They are correct in doing this. That’s part of the FUN!!! - converting NASA’s baby talk into the mature language of plasma physics, electrodynamics etc. Getting a hold on what they aren’t saying that needs to be more accurately expressed is crucial.

Having read the article; these are not “cracks” as vicariously described by NASA’s ignorance. It appears to be “charge exchange” via the electric currents accompanying those magnetic field lines.

Charge transfer occurs via the filamentary currents in the tail, which serves to space the orbits of both bodies until charge transfer is minimized. Circularization of orbits also occurs due to charge exchange with the solar wind until the voltage excursions in the Sun’s weak radial electric field are minimized.
(…)
Planets do not collide. Electrical forces and modification of orbits by charge exchange dominate in a close encounter.” - Holoscience

As far as I can tell the model you suggest has merit. Anyone feel free to correct me on this.

“2. It was the finding that anomalous cosmic rays (ACR's) were unaffected by the termination shock that was the biggest surprise. ACR's are thought to be produced by neutral atoms in interstellar space that 
— leak into the heliosphere; 
— get ionized by solar UV radiation or charge exchange with the solar wind; 
— are picked up by the solar wind and convected back to the outer heliosphere; 
— are accelerated by the solar wind termination shock; and 
— diffuse and drift into the inner heliosphere as cosmic rays.” - Holoscience: “Voyager on the Edge of What?”

You’ve correlated the scalability factor of electrical interactions with plasma and consider that the same dynamic as put forth via the NASA site with regard to the Earth/sun relationship might be applicable with regard to the Sun’s heliosphere and the ISM.

The ISM that penetrates the heliosphere is sometimes referred to as “interstellar neutral helium”. See “The GHRS and the Heliosphere“:

A fraction of the neutral content of this gas succeeds in penetrating within the heliosphere through the solar wind/interstellar medium interface and invades the interplanetary space. This allows a comparative study of the interstellar neutral atoms properties inside and outside the heliospheric interface, to infer the selective filtration at this interface.
(…)
This is in qualitative agreement with models including charge-exchange coupling with the decelerated plasma, itself excluded from the heliosphere.

How it moves?

Because the Sun's motion relative to the surrounding gas, an interstellar breeze of neutral atoms blows through the heliosphere, very much like the wind felt when driving an open car. Only very close to the Sun is the neutral gas ionized by the Sun's UV light and the by the solar wind, which leads to a small cavity in the neutral gas, roughly of several AU in size.
Except for hydrogen, which is affected by radiation pressure, the Sun's gravity deflects the neutral gas flow, leading to a concentration of neutral gas density in the direction opposite to inflow direction of the gas. - “The Flow of Interstellar Helium in the Solar System”

Google search for The interstellar neutral helium

So, it’s charge exchange; not “cracks” - pointing the finger here at NASA obviously. Correcting the nomenclature is more amenable to one finding what they’re looking for.

Can this cause sunspots? That’s an extremely interesting question IMHO:

In the electrical model, the Sun receives electrical energy from interstellar space in the form of a glow discharge. Plasma experiments show that some energy will be stored in a donut shaped 'plasmoid' above the Sun's equator.- Holoscience Sunspot Mysteries

The equatorial “donut shaped plasmoid” seems to resemble the “concentration of neutral gas density in the direction opposite to inflow direction of the gas”. But is doesn’t say equatorially. However, I think your idea interesting to the Sun‘s “electrical tornadoes” mentioned on the Holoscience Sunspot Mysteries page.

I can’t help but wonder if you’re correct. Perhaps the flow, and plasmoid build up, of interstellar plasma around the Sun may be the influence for those sunspots (electrical tornadoes) in the same manner that tornadoes on Earth may have their origin from electrical interactions with the Sun. That seems as if it might be commensurate with the inflowing electrical ‘power source’ for the Sun.

I'll have to keep that one in the ‘ol memory banks. Very nice Tolenio!