Electric Moon

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby thane » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:57 am

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... nline-news

It's interesting that the collapse is perfectly round.
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Re: Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby MattEU » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:35 am

Image
image of the cave on the moon (Moon skylight)

The team found the first candidate skylight in a volcanic area on the moon's near side called Marius Hills. "This is the first time that anybody's actually identified a skylight in a possible lava tube" on the moon, van der Bogert told New Scientist.

The hole measures 65 metres across, and based on images taken at a variety of sun angles, the the hole is thought to extend down at least 80 metres. It sits in the middle of a rille, suggesting the hole leads into a lava tube as wide as 370 metres across.

It is not clear exactly how the hole formed. A meteorite impact, moonquakes, or pressure created by gravitational tugs from the Earth could be to blame. Alternatively, part of the lava tube's ceiling could have been pulled off as lava in the tube drained away billions of years ago.




Image
cave on Mars (Martian skylights)

Very dark, nearly circular features ranging in diameter from about 328 to 820 feet puzzled researchers who found them in images taken by NASA's Mars Odyssey and Mars Global Surveyor orbiters. Using Mars Odyssey's infrared camera to check the daytime and nighttime temperatures of the circles, scientists concluded that they could be windows into underground spaces.

Cave Skylights Spotted on Mars

Seven very dark holes on the north slope of a Martian volcano have been proposed as possible cave skylights, based on day-night temperature patterns suggesting they are openings to subsurface spaces... The volcano is Arsia Mons, at 9 degrees south latitude, 239 degrees east longitude.

The features have been given informal names to aid comparative discussion. They range in diameter from about 100 meters (328 feet) to about 225 meters (738 feet). ..Arrows signify north and the direction of illumination.

Seven Possible Cave Skylights on Mars

Although the ones on Mars are larger, they are not amazingly larger. It would be no surprise if they are related. It would be good to see images of the rille and to check out the fact that the hole is in the middle of the rille.

Also to see if there are any close large craters as there appears to be similar size spotting around it.

I know of a "depression" that is similar on Earth and there is no satisfactory geological reason for it. When i saw the Martion skylights i thought it could be related. I will get some stuff together to see what people think.
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Re: Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby jjohnson » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:40 am

The first image, with the dashed white rectangle around the hole, appears to have sunlight coming more or less from the left, which helps us see the relief correctly. (Note the other features, mounded hills, etc.) Why would an impactor going into a hollow cave throw up a raised rim? On the other hand, why would an expulsion of material not create a raised rim?
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Re: Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby mharratsc » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:10 pm

Disregarding the 'mainstreamist' explanations... I wonder why there are these cylindrical depressions (I do believe that I read regarding the ones on Mars that they appear to be not caves nor caverns but simply flat-bottomed pits (which by the way hosed the mainstreamist theory of 'lava tube collapses' completely)) that are so near those giant lightning blisters?

I'd like to hear what the electrical explanation of that association/proximity might be, since I have no clue how that process might come about. :\

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Re: Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby jjohnson » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Here is a HiRise close-up image of one of these holes with the speculative text attached - on of the APODs (Astronomy Picture of the Day). Make of it what you will - sure is dark in there!
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap070928.html
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Re: Holes in a lunar lava tube

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:22 pm

* These TPODs have discussed Martian skylights, so you may like to see what's already been said there.

Jun 19, 2008 - Martian Skylights in the Laboratory
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... lights.htm

Jun 18, 2008 - The Channeled Scablands
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... blands.htm

Dec 07, 2007 - Electric Caverns
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... averns.htm

* You can also do a search on "geysers" here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=si ... f&oq=&aqi=
* Here's Sotano de las Golondrinas, or Cave of Swallows, a skylight in Mexico.
http://blog.uncovering.org/archives/upl ... rinas3.jpg
Image
Image
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Tunnels on the Moon

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:25 am

Tunnels on the Moon

Terrain-mapping done by India's Chandrayaan-1 mission
http://www.chandrayaan-i.com/index.php

has reportedly located underground tunnels on the moon which might someday be suitable for human habitation. The hollow tubes were formed after volcanic lava flow.

More at the Hindustan Times.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Human-hab ... 28391.aspx

I am surprised that the moon has not been visited by other countries and that our images and information about the planet is still so empty. Whats up with all that?
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Re: Tunnels on the Moon

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:23 pm

Here are some 'lava tubes' on Mars. Yeah, right...

Image

Full Image:
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images ... -1_650.jpg

Article:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9 ... -mars.html

Without a huge electrical current flowing in the tubes to keep it all molten, I just can't imagine the formation of such consistent diameter, kilometers long tubes. I'll have to search and see if there are any experimental reproductions of their formation. I don't believe there were any 'volcanoes' on the moon, sub-surface electric currents, yes.
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Re: Tunnels on the Moon

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:22 pm

On the Moon, it seems a volcano is not needed for lava tube formation. It is impact melt. I can live with that, as I just substitute arc discharge puddle for impact melt. Still, some of the tubes can run for tens or even hundreds of kilometers, and that still doesn't seem right somehow.

Especially on the surface of the moon, we don't need a volcano to create a lava flow. Every large impact should have created some massive lava flows, which behaved the same way.


http://www.asi.org/adb/02/01/lava-tube-formation.html
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Polar Moon Craters Electrified?

Unread postby flyingcloud » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:21 pm

Lunar Polar Craters May Be Electrified (w/ Video)
April 16, 2010

(PhysOrg.com) -- As the solar wind flows over natural obstructions on the moon, it may charge polar lunar craters to hundreds of volts, according to new calculations by NASA’s Lunar Science Institute team

Polar lunar craters are of interest because of resources, including water ice, which exist there. The moon’s orientation to the sun keeps the bottoms of polar craters in permanent shadow, allowing temperatures there to plunge below minus 400 degrees Fahrenheit, cold enough to store volatile material like water for billions of years. "However, our research suggests that, in addition to the wicked cold, explorers and robots at the bottoms of polar lunar craters may have to contend with a complex electrical environment as well, which can affect surface chemistry, static discharge, and dust cling," said William Farrell of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. Farrell is lead author of a paper on this research published March 24 in the Journal of Geophysical Research. The research is part of the Lunar Science Institute’s Dynamic Response of the Environment at the moon (DREAM) project.

This important work by Dr. Farrell and his team is further evidence that our view on the moon has changed dramatically in recent years," said Gregory Schmidt, deputy director of the NASA Lunar Science Institute at NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. "It has a dynamic and fascinating environment that we are only beginning to understand."

Solar wind inflow into craters can erode the surface, which affects recently discovered water molecules. Static discharge could short out sensitive equipment, while the sticky and extremely abrasive lunar dust could wear out spacesuits and may be hazardous if tracked inside spacecraft and inhaled over long periods.

The solar wind is a thin gas of electrically charged components of atoms - negatively charged electrons and positively charged ions -- that is constantly blowing from the surface of the sun into space. Since the moon is only slightly tilted compared to the sun, the solar wind flows almost horizontally over the lunar surface at the poles and along the region where day transitions to night, called the terminator.

The researchers created computer simulations to discover what happens when the solar wind flows over the rims of polar craters. They discovered that in some ways, the solar wind behaves like wind on Earth -- flowing into deep polar valleys and crater floors. Unlike wind on Earth, the dual electron-ion composition of the solar wind may create an unusual electric charge on the side of the mountain or crater wall; that is, on the inside of the rim directly below the solar wind flow.

Since electrons are over 1,000 times lighter than ions, the lighter electrons in the solar wind rush into a lunar crater or valley ahead of the heavy ions, creating a negatively charged region inside the crater. The ions eventually catch up, but rain into the crater at consistently lower concentrations than that of the electrons. This imbalance in the crater makes the inside walls and floor acquire a negative electric charge. The calculations reveal that the electron/ion separation effect is most extreme on a crater's leeward edge - along the inside crater wall and at the crater floor nearest the solar wind flow. Along this inner edge, the heavy ions have the greatest difficulty getting to the surface. Compared to the electrons, they act like a tractor-trailer struggling to follow a motorcycle; they just can’t make as sharp a turn over the mountain top as the electrons. "The electrons build up an electron cloud on this leeward edge of the crater wall and floor, which can create an unusually large negative charge of a few hundred Volts relative to the dense solar wind flowing over the top," says Farrell.

The negative charge along this leeward edge won’t build up indefinitely. Eventually, the attraction between the negatively charged region and positive ions in the solar wind will cause some other unusual electric current to flow. The team believes one possible source for this current could be negatively charged dust that is repelled by the negatively charged surface, gets levitated and flows away from this highly charged region. "The Apollo astronauts in the orbiting Command Module saw faint rays on the lunar horizon during sunrise that might have been scattered light from electrically lofted dust," said Farrell. "Additionally, the Apollo 17 mission landed at a site similar to a crater environment - the Taurus-Littrow valley. The Lunar Ejecta and Meteorite Experiment left by the Apollo 17 astronauts detected impacts from dust at terminator crossings where the solar wind is nearly-horizontal flowing, similar to the situation over polar craters."

Next steps for the team include more complex computer models. "We want to develop a fully three-dimensional model to examine the effects of solar wind expansion around the edges of a mountain. We now examine the vertical expansion, but we want to also know what happens horizontally," said Farrell. As early as 2012, NASA will launch the Lunar Atmosphere and Dust Environment Explorer (LADEE) mission that will orbit the moon and could look for the dust flows predicted by the team’s research.
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Re: Moon Juice

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:35 pm

"However, our research suggests that, in addition to the wicked cold, explorers and robots at the bottoms of polar lunar craters may have to contend with a complex electrical environment as well, which can affect surface chemistry, static discharge, and dust cling," said William Farrell of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. Farrell is lead author of a paper on this research published March 24 in the Journal of Geophysical Research. The research is part of the Lunar Science Institute’s Dynamic Response of the Environment at the moon (DREAM) project.

This important work by Dr. Farrell and his team is further evidence that our view on the moon has changed dramatically in recent years," said Gregory Schmidt, deputy director of the NASA Lunar Science Institute at NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. "It has a dynamic and fascinating environment that we are only beginning to understand."

More clear evidence that they never went to the moon if you ask me. They are just finding this out now?

And also that if Obama wants to cancel the lunar "return" missions, with so much to learn, you got to wonder with a planet so close and supposedly we have been there in person...well something bugs me about all that. Where are the super detailed lunar maps? Why do we not have images that are super refined? Why do we not have other countries there by now, if we supposedly went there in a bucket in the 60's and early 70's? I am not buying a lot of this stuff about moon landings, and Obama saying we do not need to go back, so just what are they trying to hide.

What is up there that is so hands off for satellite images etc???
Seriously?

Why do we not have ultra moon maps and pics?
Why does no other country go there?
Is that not the supreme goal of any nation?


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Re: Moon Juice

Unread postby Solar » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:15 pm

They're working on the safety aspects, particularly the ISRU. You can't have people up there roaming around trying to gather resources in an electrical environment for sustained periods of time without tending to this. Very dangerous.

Also see:

LUNAR ELECTRIC FIELDS AND DUST: IMPLICATIONS FOR IN SITU RESOURCE UTILIZATION.

Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter section on "Electric Dust."

I wonder if electrical properties of Martian soil could account for the "Phoenix Mars Lander Working With Sticky Soil"
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Re: Moon Juice

Unread postby Siggy_G » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:08 pm

Excellent papers! Just further confirmation of the electrical processes that's going on. We keep seeing that solar wind/plasma and the photoelectric effect are being driving forces. One could also wonder if the frontside and backside charge difference have a global effect on the movement of planets... In a way the two would cancel eachother out, but maybe the processes have inertia that causes rotational movements. There was an article in another thread that pointed to lunar storms (dust ejections etc.) along the night/day border of the moon due to the charge differences (can't find the link right now).

Aren't these papers just yet another confirmation that craters and alleys are caused by electrical discharges - especially on planets/moons/comets with little atmosphere (or before they got a denser one)?
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Re: Moon Juice

Unread postby flyingcloud » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:40 pm

they just need to make that small step from
Solar wind inflow into craters can erode the surface,
to EDM. http://www.engineersedge.com/edm.shtml
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Re: Moon Juice

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:02 pm

The resistance to electric universe theory is futile.
:D
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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