Electric Moon

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:19 am

Indeed, a very niece example and repeatedly displayed here. It was also discussed in a TPOD if I recall correct.

Here you can see a better picture and get a better impression of top left:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/file/view/LP ... ep2-12.jpg
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby neilwilkes » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:54 am

Thank you for that link - a much cleaner & substantially more detailed image.
Apologies for the repost - was not aware of the previous discussion (sadly I do not get here as often as I would like) because I have usually only had time to visit "main" forum, and have been missing these others (my loss - will put this right though).
I'd love to know what the "conventional" explanation is - probably "collapsed lava tubes" or some such nonsensical rubbish.
You will never get a man to understand something his salary depends on him not understanding.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:16 pm

Bomb20 wrote:Indeed, a very niece example and repeatedly displayed here. It was also discussed in a TPOD if I recall correct.

Here you can see a better picture and get a better impression of top left:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/file/view/LP ... ep2-12.jpg


That's excellent.

We see a crater chain inside of a rille structure. No establishment mechanism can explain that to any level of believability. Where is the collapsed debris from the roof of the lava tube? Why are there chains of pits or craters exactly inside the collapsed lava tube?

Sinuous Rilles
http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/sinuous-rilles

excerpt:
"This image shows a chain of small pits and ridge segments. It marks the likely site of a partially collapsed lava tube in western Mare Imbrium. Here, instead of a surface lava channel, lava flowed through a buried tunnel in the mare. After the eruption stopped, the tunnel then emptied. Where the roof of the tunnel has fallen in, we see pits. If the entire roof had fallen in, we might see a sinuous trough like other lunar rilles. Thus, it is believed that some lunar rilles mark collapsed lava tubes. These rilles are usually near other collapse pits, and some also merge with ridge-like features. Thus, uncollapsed lava tubes may still exist near some of these lunar sinuous rilles. (Lunar Orbiter image V-182-M, from Wilhelms (1987) The Geologic History of the Moon, USGS Prof. Paper 1348.)"
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:50 pm

And I wonder what happens if the will have really good 3D maps of the terrain one day. They will realize the "lava tubes" are flowing under disregard of topography. Then they will claim that this terrain was raising or sinking at will later. :lol:

Prof. Paper 1348


Indeed, it looks like written in 1348. :roll:

Already today they could see that some "lava channels" flow through or even over mountain sites but they are ignorant and therefore blind.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:47 am

Bomb20 wrote:And I wonder what happens if the will have really good 3D maps of the terrain one day. They will realize the "lava tubes" are flowing under disregard of topography. Then they will claim that this terrain was raising or sinking at will later. :lol:

Prof. Paper 1348


Indeed, it looks like written in 1348. :roll:

Already today they could see that some "lava channels" flow through or even over mountain sites but they are ignorant and therefore blind.


Yes exactly.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:45 pm

Yes, and here is another fine EDM structure: Schroter´s valley or Valles Schröteri:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15-Schroter.jpg

Enjoy the great combination of photographs!
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:16 pm

Bomb20 wrote:Yes, and here is another fine EDM structure: Schroter´s valley or Valles Schröteri:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15-Schroter.jpg

Enjoy the great combination of photographs!


Bomb20, that is a gorgeous assembly of images, closer-ups of the rilles. These raise more questions :idea:

• If these are tubes, then why are they not cylindrical? The floors are flat and the walls are sharp diagonals.

• If these are collapsed/fossilized tubes, then where are all of the miles of debris from the "ceilings" collapsing? The rilles are swept clean.

• If these are fossilized paths of lava flows (magma) then why do some of the paths take abrupt turns, while maintaining the same depth and width, where no obstructions are seen to divert the magma?

• If these are magma or lava tubes, where are all of the fossilized volcano sources?
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:49 pm

Yes, and there is even more to ask, e.g.:

• Why can we see little, connected leftovers of craters at the bottom in some parts of the "lava tube"? (they will probably claim these are pits or sink holes) --> If these are lava flows what caused afore mentioned craters at the bottom?

• Where is inflow and where is outflow? Does the rille go from left to right or the other way around? And Why?
(If we can nail them to tell us if the thin end or the fat end is the start/inflow of the "lava tube" then they will get even bigger problems with other examples.) --> If these are lava flows where is the flow beginning and ending?

• Why is the cobra head at the left looking like a crater as well and seems to be deeper excavated than most of the rille? --> If these are lava flows what caused the form and depth of the cobra head?

I bet there are more questions to ask but it is enough for today.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:04 pm

One question si already answered by this NASA information:

http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/LIW/20080408.html

They claim that the cobra head is the volcanic source! this is so ridiculous!

(More to come tomorrow.)
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:21 pm

Bomb20 wrote:Yes, and there is even more to ask, e.g.:

• Why can we see little, connected leftovers of craters at the bottom in some parts of the "lava tube"? (they will probably claim these are pits or sink holes) --> If these are lava flows what caused afore mentioned craters at the bottom?

• Where is inflow and where is outflow? Does the rille go from left to right or the other way around? And Why?
(If we can nail them to tell us if the thin end or the fat end is the start/inflow of the "lava tube" then they will get even bigger problems with other examples.) --> If these are lava flows where is the flow beginning and ending?

• Why is the cobra head at the left looking like a crater as well and seems to be deeper excavated than most of the rille? --> If these are lava flows what caused the form and depth of the cobra head?

I bet there are more questions to ask but it is enough for today.


Yes to all of that.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:25 pm

Bomb20 wrote:One question si already answered by this NASA information:

http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/LIW/20080408.html

They claim that the cobra head is the volcanic source! this is so ridiculous!

(More to come tomorrow.)


Yes it is ridiculous :)

The "cobra head" pit location does not seem to logically fit the profile of a fossilized caldera (with an outflow channel of lava). And again, why is the channel a "lava tube" which implies something underground? Where is the collapsed material? What happened to it? What happened, too, to all of the ground above it? Why is the entire channel cleanly exposed to the air as if the actual top ground layer itself (that allegedly hid the subsurface "tube") were sheered off?

If a house or building collapses it leaves a footprint of fallen material, a mound of stuff. Where is all of this fallen material on the Moon that has collapsed into the lava tubes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroter%2 ... roteri.jpg

And the "cobra head" is a pit/crater structure furthermore has no debris filled into it from cooled magma or structural "ceiling" collapse. Why?
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:07 pm

Yes it is ridiculous :)

The "cobra head" pit location does not seem to logically fit the profile of a fossilized caldera (with an outflow channel of lava). And again, why is the channel a "lava tube" which implies something underground? Where is the collapsed material? What happened to it? What happened, too, to all of the ground above it? Why is the entire channel cleanly exposed to the air as if the actual top ground layer itself (that allegedly hid the subsurface "tube") were sheered off?

If a house or building collapses it leaves a footprint of fallen material, a mound of stuff. Where is all of this fallen material on the Moon that has collapsed into the lava tubes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroter%2 ... roteri.jpg

And the "cobra head" is a pit/crater structure furthermore has no debris filled into it from cooled magma or structural "ceiling" collapse. Why?


Yes, I agree completely.

The following source (I hope the link works) underlines "The volcanic processes that formed Valles Schröteri are not well understood." And tries to solve the mysteries in the old manner (scroll down for pics and illustrations):
http://books.google.de/books?id=pX1OXB8rAV8C&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=interpretation+%22cobra+head%22+moon&source=bl&ots=rsDsXHf3Qz&sig=Nm8HsIzIEzYfSfJE1EkHUGpKS60&hl=de&sa=X&ei=eGJBVJvKOpOxafWdgNAK&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=interpretation%20%22cobra%20head%22%20moon&f=false

They compare the Cobra Head with the Bandera crater in Mexico. See: http://www.airphotona.com/stockimg/images/14594.jpg

And here another interesting picture of Cobra Head (2nd picture):
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+7,+2008
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby viscount aero » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:48 pm

Bomb20 wrote:
Yes it is ridiculous :)

The "cobra head" pit location does not seem to logically fit the profile of a fossilized caldera (with an outflow channel of lava). And again, why is the channel a "lava tube" which implies something underground? Where is the collapsed material? What happened to it? What happened, too, to all of the ground above it? Why is the entire channel cleanly exposed to the air as if the actual top ground layer itself (that allegedly hid the subsurface "tube") were sheered off?

If a house or building collapses it leaves a footprint of fallen material, a mound of stuff. Where is all of this fallen material on the Moon that has collapsed into the lava tubes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroter%2 ... roteri.jpg

And the "cobra head" is a pit/crater structure furthermore has no debris filled into it from cooled magma or structural "ceiling" collapse. Why?


Yes, I agree completely.

The following source (I hope the link works) underlines "The volcanic processes that formed Valles Schröteri are not well understood." And tries to solve the mysteries in the old manner (scroll down for pics and illustrations):
http://books.google.de/books?id=pX1OXB8rAV8C&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=interpretation+%22cobra+head%22+moon&source=bl&ots=rsDsXHf3Qz&sig=Nm8HsIzIEzYfSfJE1EkHUGpKS60&hl=de&sa=X&ei=eGJBVJvKOpOxafWdgNAK&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=interpretation%20%22cobra%20head%22%20moon&f=false

They compare the Cobra Head with the Bandera crater in Mexico. See: http://www.airphotona.com/stockimg/images/14594.jpg

And here another interesting picture of Cobra Head (2nd picture):
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+7,+2008


Ok, Bomb20, I viewed all the links and images.

I looked up lava tubes as seen on Earth and found this information:
Earth "lava tube" in Idaho state: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... es_prt.htm

Lava tubes do resemble the Lunar (and Martian) structures but there are also big differences.

Mars "lava tube":
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45828571/ns/t ... EHH1ygkNk8

Perhaps start reading this. I'm going to learn more about Earthly lava tubes:
http://www.saudicaves.com/lava/introobl.htm

I think at issue is that there ARE lava tubes on Mars--probably. And there probably ARE lava tubs on the Moon. But there are also structures on Mars and the Moon that are incorrectly believed to be lava tubes.

Lava tubes on Earth are not 6 miles wide and 50 miles long, with approximately unvarying widths for most of the rille's distance.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:47 am

I looked up lava tubes as seen on Earth and found this information:
Earth "lava tube" in Idaho state: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... es_prt.htm

Lava tubes do resemble the Lunar (and Martian) structures but there are also big differences.

Mars "lava tube":
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45828571/ns/t ... EHH1ygkNk8

Perhaps start reading this. I'm going to learn more about Earthly lava tubes:
http://www.saudicaves.com/lava/introobl.htm

I think at issue is that there ARE lava tubes on Mars--probably. And there probably ARE lava tubs on the Moon. But there are also structures on Mars and the Moon that are incorrectly believed to be lava tubes.

Lava tubes on Earth are not 6 miles wide and 50 miles long, with approximately unvarying widths for most of the rille's distance.


Indeed, Viscount Aero, I could imagine volcanism for every solid planet - at least in early history - as well but I can not accept far-fetched explanations like „a plume is moving un der the surface“ (under the three Mars volcanoes in line) or claims like „lava channels covering the few visible lava tubes“ (on Mars).

The starting point of all trouble with the mainstream is the permanent mixing of observation and interpretation after introduction of an ad-hoc assumption based on terrestrial features.

Obviously nobody had the following idea
1. create a catalogue with features of real lava tubes and lava flows on Earth,
2. create a catalogue of features of channels, rilles and assumed (!) lava flows on Mars, Moon etc.
3. compare both and describe important common and diverging features,
4. apply different scenarios for the formation of these objects and name the problems of each scenario (What is the best?)
5. come to scientific conclusions.

I would do this immediately if I would only have time and money for this type of project. The planetary scientists, however, should have the resources but don´t care.
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Re: Wonderfiul example of EDM on The Moon

Unread postby Bomb20 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:58 am

I would like to know what mainstram planetary scientists think if they see a lava channel (rill) performing 90° turns as seen here belowr "Prinz", who is called a lava flooded remains of a lunar crater". The feature is even more common on Mars. How many lava flows on Earth take 90° turns?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Prinz_crater_Apollo_15.jpg
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