Electric Comets

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby raytek2009 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:03 pm

scowie wrote:That's not a shadow edge, it's the edge of the photograph. That picture is clearly an amalgamation of multiple photographs taken at different angles, hence the pointy end of the black wedge that you see if you follow that sharp edge down.

Thanks, that helps with perspective. If we new more about the scanning we could work out the "tilt".
I think the CONSERT antenna may be in contact with the rockface. Also, playing around with the grayscales, I think that there are a couple of scratch marks just above and to the right of Philae's "foot". I put two parallel lines to the left of the "scratches". :ugeek:
Attachments
Philae g1w4ugqe24okofzt7vgp pushed lower center edges.jpg
raytek2009
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:32 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby S Freeman » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 pm

Well, it has to be said..
Were so sorry they equipped you so poorly for your mission. However, the few pictures you sent back have already changed the way mainstream science will forever picture the surface of a comet.
Your endeavors will not go wasted on us.

And now, a moment of silence.....
philea.jpg
**** R.I.P. ****

Thank you Philae. Rest in peace.
Just a new guy here.
S Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:17 pm

Re: Mars/comet discharge??

Unread postby S Freeman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:11 am

tholden wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Sx3WdyOihH8


Nice! The scientists were left in amazement, and they expect long term perturbations in Mars’ atmosphere.
Props to Tholden for posting this!

Go to the MAVEN site, They have a good follow up on this event. ( I will include the text from the site in case something changes)
Link to source:
http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/2014/11/07/mars-spacecraft-reveal-comet-flyby-effects-on-martian-atmosphere/
Original Text:
Mars Spacecraft Reveal Comet Flyby Effects on Martian Atmosphere
November 7

Two NASA and one European spacecraft that obtained the first up-close observations of a comet flyby of Mars on Oct. 19, have gathered new information about the basic properties of the comet’s nucleus and directly detected the effects on the Martian atmosphere.

Data from observations carried out by MAVEN, NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO), and a radar instrument on the European Space Agency’s (ESA’s) Mars Express spacecraft have revealed that debris from the comet added a temporary and very strong layer of ions to the ionosphere, the electrically charged layer high above Mars. In these observations, scientists were able to make a direct connection from the input of debris from a specific meteor shower to the formation of this kind of transient layer in response; that is a first on any planet, including Earth.

Comet C/2013 A1 Siding Spring traveled from the most distant region of our solar system, called the Oort Cloud, and made a close approach around 2:27 p.m. EDT within about 87,000 miles (139,500 kilometers) of the Red Planet. This is less than half the distance between Earth and our moon and less than one-tenth the distance of any known comet flyby of Earth.

Dust from the comet impacted Mars and was vaporized high in the atmosphere, producing what was likely an impressive meteor shower. This debris resulted in significant temporary changes to the planet’s upper atmosphere and possible longer-term perturbations. Earth-based and a host of space telescopes also observed the unique celestial object.

“This historic event allowed us to observe the details of this fast-moving Oort Cloud comet in a way never before possible using our existing Mars missions,” said Jim Green, director of NASA’s Planetary Science Division at the agency’s Headquarters in Washington. “Observing the effects on Mars of the comet’s dust slamming into the upper atmosphere makes me very happy that we decided to put our spacecraft on the other side of Mars at the peak of the dust tail passage and out of harm’s way.”

The MAVEN spacecraft, recently arrived at Mars, detected the comet encounter in two ways. The remote-sensing Imaging Ultraviolet Spectrograph observed intense ultraviolet emission from magnesium and iron ions high in the atmosphere in the aftermath of the meteor shower. Not even the most intense meteor storms on Earth have produced as strong a response as this one. The emission dominated Mars’ ultraviolet spectrum for several hours after the encounter and then dissipated over the next two days.

MAVEN also was able to directly sample and determine the composition of some of the comet dust in Mars’ atmosphere. Analysis of these samples by the spacecraft’s Neutral Gas and Ion Mass Spectrometer detected eight different types of metal ions, including sodium, magnesium and iron. These are the first direct measurements of the composition of dust from an Oort Cloud comet. The Oort Cloud, well beyond the outer-most planets that surround our sun, is a spherical region of icy objects believed to be material left over from the formation of the solar system.

Elsewhere above Mars, a joint U.S. and Italian instrument on Mars Express observed a huge increase in the density of electrons following the comet’s close approach. This instrument, the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS), saw a huge jump in the electron density in the ionosphere a few hours after the comet rendezvous. This spike occurred at a substantially lower altitude than the normal density peak in the Martian ionosphere. The increased ionization, like the effects observed by MAVEN, appears to be the result of fine particles from the comet burning up in the atmosphere.

MRO’s Shallow Subsurface Radar (SHARAD) also detected the enhanced ionosphere. Images from the instrument were smeared by the passage of the radar signals through the temporary ion layer created by the comet’s dust. SHARAD scientists used this smearing to determine that the electron density of the ionosphere on the planet’s night side, where the observations were made, was five to 10 times higher than usual.

Studies of the comet itself, made with MRO’s High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera, revealed the nucleus is smaller than the expected 1.2 miles (2 kilometers). The HiRISE images also indicate a rotation period for the nucleus of eight hours, which is consistent with recent preliminary observations by NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope.

MRO’s Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) also observed the comet to see whether signs of any particular chemical constituents stood out in its spectrum. Team members said the spectrum appears to show a dusty comet with no strong emission lines at their instrument’s sensitivity.

In addition to these immediate effects, MAVEN and the other missions will continue to look for long-term perturbations to Mars’ atmosphere.


It lit up really bright in the UV band, Huge increase in electron density... yes, this was a noteworthy event.
Just a new guy here.
S Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:17 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby leo vuyk » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:20 am

S Freeman wrote:Well, it has to be said..
Were so sorry they equipped you so poorly for your mission. However, the few pictures you sent back have already changed the way mainstream science will forever picture the surface of a comet.
Your endeavors will not go wasted on us.

And now, a moment of silence.....
philea.jpg

Thank you Philae. Rest in peace.


However this photo and the solid ice crust at the top of the cometseems to be suporting the idea that the interior of the comet should have a pumice struture of even some sort of solid ice funnel alike system, as a support for the ice top layer, MUPUS was not able to penetrate.
Why ? because the Comet density should be around 0.5 gr/cm^3.
Question: how could a solid ice top layer crust be created?
answer, by internal or external heat.
leo vuyk
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:49 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby leo vuyk » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:47 am

Solid ice crust by internal heat? see: https://www.flickr.com/photos/93308747@N05/?details=1
leo vuyk
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:49 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby S Freeman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:21 am

leo vuyk wrote:However this photo and the solid ice crust at the top of the cometseems to be suporting the idea that the interior of the comet should have a pumice struture of even some sort of solid ice funnel alike system, as a support for the ice top layer, MUPUS was not able to penetrate.
Why ? because the Comet density should be around 0.5 gr/cm^3.
Question: how could a solid ice top layer crust be created?
answer, by internal or external heat.


Is there a solid layer of ice? I think MUPUS would have penetrated it, and the ESA would have been shouting form the mountaintops "WE FOUND ICE"!
I wish we could have gotten more data from the probe and we would know for sure.
Just a new guy here.
S Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:17 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:41 am

?

leo vuyk wrote:
However this photo and the solid ice crust at the top of the cometseems to be ...


Leo,
Which image are you thinking shows a "solid ice crust" ?
seasmith
 
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby leo vuyk » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:42 pm

seasmith wrote:?

leo vuyk wrote:
However this photo and the solid ice crust at the top of the cometseems to be ...


Leo,
Which image are you thinking shows a "solid ice crust" ?


If the mean density of the comet is 0.5gr/cm^3 then material more massive than water ice in sponde form seems to me excluded. so no real rock or metal! What the last photo shows us, is a black solid rock alike. conclusion this should be water or other ice.
leo vuyk
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:49 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:56 pm

~
Leo, still not sure which image you are referring to. Could you post the image, or a link please ?

However this photo and the solid ice crust at the top of the cometseems to be suporting the idea that the interior of the comet should have a pumice struture of even some sort of solid ice funnel alike system, as a support for the ice top layer, MUPUS was not able to penetrate....
Why ? because the Comet density should be around 0.5 gr/cm^3. -Leo



Yes, that is the character of a "breccia-conglomerate", in geology.

... it looks like a loosely fused breccia-conglomerate 'rock', perhaps partially fused by kinetic energy of an impact or electrical strike. -s


Depending on the conglomerate's constituents, it can be heavier than dense concrete, or as light as a volcanic tuff.
It can be fused as hard as cast iron, or stuck all together much more loosely.
It depends on heat and pressure, at the time of formation.

An electric event would consolidate the matrix very quickly, which is why i've tentatively described it as "lightly fused".
Depending on original metallic and silicic content, there would be some fused or glassy, 'ice-looking' bits and some rocky/sandy/silty stuff, etc.
The electric fusing would account also for the "chondrules," which Paladin17 has accureately described in a related thread.
[sortof like a nano-slag]

Another thing to consider in the pictures is that areas looking smooth and 'icey', may merely be 'fused pixels',
i.e. which have been overloaded by reflected sunlight, or excessive detail, and so a group of pixels are
washed out and appear as a smooth area in the transmitted image.
More images to compare would settle that.
seasmith
 
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:17 pm

The comet is it is not made of water

If the 0.5 g/cm³ is correct, it means that the structure is not solid. Not solid ice, not solid stone.
Ice = 0.9 g/cm³. So the structure is hollow in some way. Likely hollow as pumice or snow.
Looking at the surface it is mostly black, that means it is not ice or snow, not even dry ice,
but likely some material that can have a very low reflection. Carbon would be a much better option, because it is very much like coal. But a dark form of pumice might be too.
The structure of the comet is very well defined, as if it is made of weathered stone. It even has a duck-shape and some craters. That means that the main structure is older than one cycle around the sun. That means that the material of the main structure is not made of ice or another similar temperature sensitive material.

The tail of the comet starts in the middle of the ducky-shape. Exactly where we see the weathering of the stone. That means that the tail is related to the middle of the shape in some way. We did not see any vents there, and there is still dust on the surface. It means that the tail does not come from openings in the surface, nor from sponge like material. These would create dust to lift off and would start at the front of the comet.
The center (neck of the ducky) could be a focus point for the solar wind in some way, because it is aerodynamically a focus point.

So this means that the pumice or coal are the only options..

How it is formed could actually be very similar to coal. It might get "burned to coal and ash" when it travels very near the sun. The sun's heat and electrical power would liquefy or evaporate all materials inside the comet with a low melting-point. These materials will be removed from the surface and interior. They do not return to the comet anymore, because the gravity is too low. The comet will end up being just like a coal, which is exactly what we see.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@
User avatar
Zyxzevn
 
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:48 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby Frantic » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:21 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:The comet is it is not made of water

If the 0.5 g/cm³ is correct, it means that the structure is not solid. Not solid ice, not solid stone.
Ice = 0.9 g/cm³. So the structure is hollow in some way. Likely hollow as pumice or snow.
Looking at the surface it is mostly black, that means it is not ice or snow, not even dry ice,
but likely some material that can have a very low reflection. Carbon would be a much better option, because it is very much like coal. But a dark form of pumice might be too.
The structure of the comet is very well defined, as if it is made of weathered stone. It even has a duck-shape and some craters. That means that the main structure is older than one cycle around the sun. That means that the material of the main structure is not made of ice or another similar temperature sensitive material.

The tail of the comet starts in the middle of the ducky-shape. Exactly where we see the weathering of the stone. That means that the tail is related to the middle of the shape in some way. We did not see any vents there, and there is still dust on the surface. It means that the tail does not come from openings in the surface, nor from sponge like material. These would create dust to lift off and would start at the front of the comet.
The center (neck of the ducky) could be a focus point for the solar wind in some way, because it is aerodynamically a focus point.

So this means that the pumice or coal are the only options..

How it is formed could actually be very similar to coal. It might get "burned to coal and ash" when it travels very near the sun. The sun's heat and electrical power would liquefy or evaporate all materials inside the comet with a low melting-point. These materials will be removed from the surface and interior. They do not return to the comet anymore, because the gravity is too low. The comet will end up being just like a coal, which is exactly what we see.


I agree, was thinking the same, if they believe that density measurement, the materials would mostly be forms of carbon like coal ash etc. Those aren't boulders, they're briquettes ;)
Frantic
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby leo vuyk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:14 am

seasmith wrote:~
Leo, still not sure which image you are referring to. Could you post the image, or a link please ?



Seasmith See:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93308747@N05/15646949527/
leo vuyk
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:49 am

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:32 am

Leo,

i had looked at all your Flicker photos, and didn't see the ice.

Remember, they are using an antique 4 mega-pixel camera up there.
Most smartphones today have probably double that resolution....
;)
seasmith
 
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby S Freeman » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:39 am

seasmith wrote:Leo,
...
Remember, they are using an antique 4 mega-pixel camera up there.
Most smartphones today have probably double that resolution....
;)


Also, they've intensified the brightness and contrast of the images because the surface is 'blacker than coal'.
From ESA:
Some light contrast enhancements have been made to emphasise certain features and to bring out features in the shadowed areas. In reality, the comet is extremely dark ­– blacker than coal. The images, taken in black-and-white, are grey-scaled according to the relative brightness of the features observed, which depends on local illumination conditions, surface characteristics and composition of the given area. Some slight vignetting can also be seen in the corners of some images.
Just a new guy here.
S Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:17 pm

Re: Philae Images

Unread postby leo vuyk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:55 am

seasmith wrote:Leo,

i had looked at all your Flicker photos, and didn't see the ice.

Remember, they are using an antique 4 mega-pixel camera up there.
Most smartphones today have probably double that resolution....
;)

See My Flickr Photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93308747@ ... hotostream
and also:
Water ice under Philae!
The PP experiment used a number of electrodes to transmit alternating current through the comet surface and was able to detect that there is a large quantity of water ice under Philae.
See\:

http://www.dlr.de/dlr/en/desktopdefault ... lery/17248
also this:
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/20 ... touchdown/
leo vuyk
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:49 am

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Universe - Planetary Science

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest