Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Enemy of Empire
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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by Enemy of Empire » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:31 am

nick c wrote:
E of E wrote:I don't think polygonal craters could be formed by a maintained arc, or 'steady stream of plasma', as the natural tendency of Birkeland currents is to spiral. This would result in the arc constantly rotating, which would cut a circular outline and not a polygonal one.
The process is observed on a variety of scales.
See Galactic Hexagon:
Diocotron instabilities in the Birkeland current filaments are most likely responsible for the hexagonal shapes seen in galaxies. Electric power can act with trillions of times more force than gravity.
also:
Saturn's Hexagon
Beams of electricity flowing through plasma produce a central column surrounded by concentric cylinders. The cylindrical filaments create evenly spaced vortices surrounding the column. As the filaments rotate around one another, a preferred hexagonal cross-section forms within the innermost column.
When I started working on this, my original intention was to propose that the polygonal arrangement of current filaments was a hitherto unrecognised but fundamental property of Birkeland currents. I would also like to have proposed that the filamentation process occurs at much lower current densities than previously thought i.e. when the currents are in dark mode. However, I didn't have anywhere near enough evidence to support this theory so I decided to concentrate on one way in which this polygonal arrangement can be seen to manifest itself i.e. the concentric polygonal layers of an arc discharge. I thought this a better idea as I had enough supporting evidence for this and thus didn't dilute what I had or risk the whole lot being dismissed because of lack of supporting evidence.

For example, I would say that Saturn's polar hexagon is a disturbance in Saturn's magnetosphere caused by the presence of Birkeland currents being restrained into a hexagonal geometry by their own radial magnetic fields. These currents must flow somwhere and connect to something; much like Earth's polar Birkeland currents flow to somewhere and connect to something i.e. the sun. But this is a big idea and requires substantial evidence to support it.

With this in mind, when we look at the experiments being carried out by Zane and others, where hints of a polygonal outline are produced by discharges of low current density, which are possibly in dark mode, then we begin to see supporting evidence for the idea that not only does filamentation occur at low current densities, but that even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.

So experiments like those which produced the images seen in this thread so far, don't so much support my theory regarding crater formation, as provide more supporting evidence for the bigger idea I would have liked to propose. In this respect such experiments are invaluable in establishing the fact that wherever such hexagonal and octagonal arrangements are seen, they are a reliable indicator of the presence of Birkeland currents restrained by their radial magnetic fields.

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by dahlenaz » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Enemy of Empire wrote:
When I started working on this, my original intention was to propose that the polygonal arrangement of current filaments was a hitherto unrecognised but fundamental property of Birkeland currents. I would also like to have proposed that the filamentation process occurs at much lower current densities than previously thought i.e. when the currents are in dark mode. However, I didn't have anywhere near enough evidence to support this theory so I decided to concentrate on one way in which this polygonal arrangement can be seen to manifest itself i.e. the concentric polygonal layers of an arc discharge. I thought this a better idea as I had enough supporting evidence for this and thus didn't dilute what I had or risk the whole lot being dismissed because of lack of supporting evidence.

For example, I would say that Saturn's polar hexagon is a disturbance in Saturn's magnetosphere caused by the presence of Birkeland currents being restrained into a hexagonal geometry by their own radial magnetic fields. These currents must flow somwhere and connect to something; much like Earth's polar Birkeland currents flow to somewhere and connect to something i.e. the sun. But this is a big idea and requires substantial evidence to support it.

With this in mind, when we look at the experiments being carried out by Zane and others, where hints of a polygonal outline are produced by discharges of low current density, which are possibly in dark mode, then we begin to see supporting evidence for the idea that not only does filamentation occur at low current densities, but that even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.

So experiments like those which produced the images seen in this thread so far, don't so much support my theory regarding crater formation, as provide more supporting evidence for the bigger idea I would have liked to propose. In this respect such experiments are invaluable in establishing the fact that wherever such hexagonal and octagonal arrangements are seen, they are a reliable indicator of the presence of Birkeland currents restrained by their radial magnetic fields.
I am truly delighted that the results of these recent experiments have had some value to any part of
your investigation... The experiments did not run their full course, so, if further experimental
efforts would be desirable toward your ultimate goal, and within the limits of my backyard lab,
we should discuss at length how to accomplish those experiments,,, and possibly in a way that
might bring interested parties together under a focused effort.

d..z

...

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by Enemy of Empire » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:46 am

dahlenaz wrote:
Enemy of Empire wrote:
When I started working on this, my original intention was to propose that the polygonal arrangement of current filaments was a hitherto unrecognised but fundamental property of Birkeland currents. I would also like to have proposed that the filamentation process occurs at much lower current densities than previously thought i.e. when the currents are in dark mode. However, I didn't have anywhere near enough evidence to support this theory so I decided to concentrate on one way in which this polygonal arrangement can be seen to manifest itself i.e. the concentric polygonal layers of an arc discharge. I thought this a better idea as I had enough supporting evidence for this and thus didn't dilute what I had or risk the whole lot being dismissed because of lack of supporting evidence.

For example, I would say that Saturn's polar hexagon is a disturbance in Saturn's magnetosphere caused by the presence of Birkeland currents being restrained into a hexagonal geometry by their own radial magnetic fields. These currents must flow somwhere and connect to something; much like Earth's polar Birkeland currents flow to somewhere and connect to something i.e. the sun. But this is a big idea and requires substantial evidence to support it.

With this in mind, when we look at the experiments being carried out by Zane and others, where hints of a polygonal outline are produced by discharges of low current density, which are possibly in dark mode, then we begin to see supporting evidence for the idea that not only does filamentation occur at low current densities, but that even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.

So experiments like those which produced the images seen in this thread so far, don't so much support my theory regarding crater formation, as provide more supporting evidence for the bigger idea I would have liked to propose. In this respect such experiments are invaluable in establishing the fact that wherever such hexagonal and octagonal arrangements are seen, they are a reliable indicator of the presence of Birkeland currents restrained by their radial magnetic fields.
I am truly delighted that the results of these recent experiments have had some value to any part of
your investigation... The experiments did not run their full course, so, if further experimental
efforts would be desirable toward your ultimate goal, and within the limits of my backyard lab,
we should discuss at length how to accomplish those experiments,,, and possibly in a way that
might bring interested parties together under a focused effort.

d..z

...
I would be more than happy to discuss this at length and to work with any interested parties. My email is boz8257@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by willendure » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:20 pm

Enemy of Empire wrote:... even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.
Do you think there might be some way to observe this more directly? For example, if you were to shake up some fine chalk dust around the experiment, might the current filaments disturb the dust in such a way that you might actually be able to see the filaments, or the signature of them at least? Or some other way?

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by dahlenaz » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:44 am

Enemy of Empire wrote:
dahlenaz wrote:
Enemy of Empire wrote:

With this in mind, when we look at the experiments being carried out by Zane and others, where hints of a polygonal outline are produced by discharges of low current density, which are possibly in dark mode, then we begin to see supporting evidence for the idea that not only does filamentation occur at low current densities, but that even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.

So experiments like those which produced the images seen in this thread so far, don't so much support my theory regarding crater formation, as provide more supporting evidence for the bigger idea I would have liked to propose. In this respect such experiments are invaluable in establishing the fact that wherever such hexagonal and octagonal arrangements are seen, they are a reliable indicator of the presence of Birkeland currents restrained by their radial magnetic fields.
I am truly delighted that the results of these recent experiments have had some value to any part of
your investigation... The experiments did not run their full course, so, if further experimental
efforts would be desirable toward your ultimate goal, and within the limits of my backyard lab,
we should discuss at length how to accomplish those experiments,,, and possibly in a way that
might bring interested parties together under a focused effort.

d..z

...
I would be more than happy to discuss this at length and to work with any interested parties. My email is boz8257@yahoo.co.uk
I am emcouraged by your interest in digging into the experiment-side further but i may be the least qualified
at contributing anything.. I am also questioning my thoughts on these and other observations since results
of these recent experiments and their details have been pass-over by the t-bolts project, yet in one earlier
experiment from 2012, questionably applied (in 2015) to explain certain activity on comet 67p/C-G.
I don't want to appear to be detaching my efforts from here, but with no input coming from the project on recent
developments, or clarifying details of other, i can only guess that the value of these experiment results
are not applicable..

I most certainly don't want to tarnish your efforts.

d..z

...

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by comingfrom » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:34 pm

Image

Image

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by dahlenaz » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:31 pm

The close proximity of this feature to the waters edge is a detail not to be missed...

The lower image offeres us a glimpse into something we see in land formations where rock forms are stacked
upon one-another but in those instances we are not clued in on the angle of the lightning strike.. The large feature
of the second image shows us that the stacking of material occurred at an angle other than that of the current path
of the bolt.. What does this tell us about the forces involved in the influence of the electric current upon involved
material?

This stacking of material in columnar orientation was produced in the CRT experiments which involved passing two
monitors in close proximity. The material involved in discharges which made several different features on both monitors was most
likely influenced by the surface field of the CRT, so i would be inclined to suggest that the electric discharge
which formed the large feature of the previous post did not entirely act with disregard for the localized
characteristics of the earth at this site. How to define these characteristics is something with which i will not
speculate (tstgp).
Notice that at the base of the feature the material is somewhat symmetrically gathered,, consistant with experimental
results and planetary examples.. But where have we seen in experiments this kind of balancing act where
an acute discharge sets up material at a right-angle to the surface and so far above the surface... You can ballance BB's
in a stacked orientation on a magnet so i would suspect that the earth's magnetic field played a role in controlling
how material was stacked above the main discharge channel and at an acute angle to that current path...

When we look at a comet with twin tails,, is this effect comparable in some way to the two lines
of material orientation seen in the beach figure?

Image
corrected link to one in image
The images taken at this time were not very good but you can still see the stacking.
Backyard experimenter scores again!!!

I would speculate that the stacked material was manipulated in an anti-gravity-like relationship
for it to reach its final resting position.

d..z

...

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STUDY: Lightning can alter the atomic structure of rocks…

Unread post by FS3 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:29 pm

An new paper has appeared, discussing the possibility of electrical effects as the origin of craters - once exclusively reserved for mechanical impacts …

On the Farsight3 (FS3)-Blog in German or …

…from RT in English:

Lightning can alter the atomic structure of rocks: Just like meteor impacts
…powerful lightning strike can create the kind of massive pressure needed to create shocked lamellae, atomic structures that were previously thought to result from a meteor impact, or a nuclear explosion.

Such structures, which form under an estimated pressure of at least 10 gigapascals and lack of hot temperature, were first discovered when scientists studied blast sites of underground nuclear tests. Then it turned out that they are encountered worldwide in craters left by meteor impacts. Volcanoes cannot produce such pressure, so geologists long considered the presence of shocked quartz or other minerals as good evidence pointing to the impact origin of a crater.

But according to a new study published in the journal American Mineralogist, bolts of lightning can induce the type of changes in atomic structure that create shocked minerals.

"I think the most exciting thing about this study is just to see what lightning can do," co-author Reto Gieré of the University of Pennsylvania told PhysOrg. "To see that lightning literally melts the surface of a rock and changes crystal structures is fascinating…"
Fascinating, indeed!

FS3

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by comingfrom » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:26 am

Thank you, d..z.

I posted those images of fulgurites without comment, for I didn't know what to make of them.
With all the talk about cratering, I wondered why we don't also see enormous fulgurites on the planets which experienced large inter-planetary thunderbolts.

Your explanation, and note about the closeness to water, helped clear these questions up for me.
Very much appreciated.
Once again thank you.

Here is another interesting one (again, by the water).

Image

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by Enemy of Empire » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:31 am

dahlenaz wrote:
Enemy of Empire wrote:
dahlenaz wrote:
Does this concept that applies hexagonal close packing and cubic close packing to the
EDM process also take into consideration discharge behavior, beyond the confines of the arc?
It would seem in far greater agreement with what is seen in the experiments i've done and seen,
and in some of those, deposition processes showed their role as well... d..z

...
No, not really, the close packing concept only relates to the structural aspect of an arc discharge i.e. concentric polygonal layers of current filaments. But that doesn't mean that I dismiss other electrical effects which also occur in a lightning strike or arc discharge as contributory factors.
Thanks for the reply.

How do you account for the maintenance of angles
while rotation of the close-packed filaments is occurring?

Part 2 of video taken during last session.

d..z

...
In a strike on a negative surface, the crater is excavated by the sheer physical power - in terms of temperature and pressure - of a thunderbolt. Although the outer current layer is not hot enough to completely melt the country rock, it is hot enough to 'plasticise' it. As the current layer rotates for a few microseconds before discharging, the 'plasticised' rock will not show any deformation. When the currents have discharged and the ionised pathway dissipated, then the instant flash cooling of the rock will preserve the crater outline, including the angular vertices. This is perhaps best seen at the Kimberley Big Hole where the long line of radial scoring around the diatreme opening indicates a fair degree of rotation of the current filaments, yet angular vertices are still clearly seen.

A strike on a positive surface is quite different as no crater is excavated. Though I couldn't find any satisfactory explanation of the mechanism involved I suggest the following. Assuming a lightning bolt to be negative i.e. a stream of current or electrons, then the sub-surface positive charges will rush to the surface to meet the oncoming negative charge and this process effectively deforms the surface and the current layers will discharge at the surface, forming the central dome and raised ridges seen at Aorounga crater and Olympus Mons. As there is nothing to impede the current layers as they rotate, the crater outline will be formed when the outer current layer makes contact with the surface and discharges, before the outer ionisation pathway dissipates, again leaving a clear polygonal outline with sharp angular vertices.

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by Enemy of Empire » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:36 am

willendure wrote:
Enemy of Empire wrote:... even in dark mode the filaments are already being forced to adopt a close packing arrangement resulting in the characteristic hexagonal or octagonal geometry seen on a large scale.
Do you think there might be some way to observe this more directly? For example, if you were to shake up some fine chalk dust around the experiment, might the current filaments disturb the dust in such a way that you might actually be able to see the filaments, or the signature of them at least? Or some other way?
It will be difficult to obtain a cross-sectional outline of current filaments in dark mode as they are invisible and the filaments will be rotating. Perhaps the best way is to try and make them visible by using fine dust as you suggest, or maybe blowing smoke over them as they do in wind tunnel testing.

It may be easier to obtain a cross-sectional outline of an arc discharge. I think there are two ways of doing this. The first is by the crater forming experiments currently being carried out, but with a different discharge surface. If the objective is to capture the crater outline rather than replicate large scale crater formation, then perhaps using a material which is plastic enough to capture the 'stamped impression' of an arc discharge but resilient enough to not be blown apart by the impact force of the discharge will achieve this. You could try using wax, gel, or maybe even plasticine. Of course, you could try this with a positively charged surface and see if you can obtain a raised dome and concentric raised ridges in the discharge surface.

The second method is to try and re-create the scenario I proposed for the Siberian craters i.e. a lightning bolt which punched through the permafrost before discharging on the cavern floor below, leaving a neat polygonal hole in the permafrost. Is it possible to suspend a thin sheet of suitable material (perhaps frozen mud to replicate permafrost?) between the probe tip and the discharge surface? If so then you may be able to fire off an arc burst which will punch through the thin sheet before discharging on the surface below, leaving a neat polygonal hole.

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Re: STUDY: Lightning can alter the atomic structure of rocks

Unread post by Enemy of Empire » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:06 am

FS3 wrote:An new paper has appeared, discussing the possibility of electrical effects as the origin of craters - once exclusively reserved for mechanical impacts …

On the Farsight3 (FS3)-Blog in German or …

…from RT in English:

Lightning can alter the atomic structure of rocks: Just like meteor impacts
…powerful lightning strike can create the kind of massive pressure needed to create shocked lamellae, atomic structures that were previously thought to result from a meteor impact, or a nuclear explosion.

Such structures, which form under an estimated pressure of at least 10 gigapascals and lack of hot temperature, were first discovered when scientists studied blast sites of underground nuclear tests. Then it turned out that they are encountered worldwide in craters left by meteor impacts. Volcanoes cannot produce such pressure, so geologists long considered the presence of shocked quartz or other minerals as good evidence pointing to the impact origin of a crater.

But according to a new study published in the journal American Mineralogist, bolts of lightning can induce the type of changes in atomic structure that create shocked minerals.

"I think the most exciting thing about this study is just to see what lightning can do," co-author Reto Gieré of the University of Pennsylvania told PhysOrg. "To see that lightning literally melts the surface of a rock and changes crystal structures is fascinating…"
Fascinating, indeed!

FS3
Lightning seems to be a popular research topic these days, I wonder why. I read the abstract but not the full paper as, like too much of academia, it's locked up in a subscription vault. I've emailed the lead author to see if I can get any more details because I'm not sure if they're ascribing the PDF's to the impact force of the lightning bolt or to electrical effects. Either way, this provides more supporting evidence for my larger hypothesis.

Thank you for posting this.

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by dahlenaz » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:00 pm

Getting back to the hexagonal aspects of craters and other notable features associated with planets,
such as Jupiter's polar hexagon, i just listened to a space news video where Don Scott stated that
the cause of the rings around the hexagon are understood by him and others but they can't explain
what causes the hexagon...
In another video done by Peter Jupp, he interviews Wal Thornhill on comets and planets and he states that
all bodies can be considered as electrets, an electret "gives off a permanent static electrical field"...

Which raises a question in my mind,,, doesn't this bring us back to an experiment
which i mentioned earlier, where an active plasma ball was brought into close proximity to
the electro-static field of an energized CRT?
The result was that at the point of nearest proximity, one group of plasma filaments
became gathered within a polygonal boundary that stayed around the filaments
as long as the ball remained in close proximity.

So my suggestion earlier; that the planet's magnetic field plays an essential role in the formation of precise
geometric shapes,, such as hexagons, where plasma filaments are active,,, seems to be something other than
a dumb idea from a backyard experimenter... Those experiment results were shared with the thunderbolts group
back when first observed..

Score another one for the backyard experimenter with no PHD, masters or related degrees,
just the leading of the Spirit of God that would like us to solve this puzzle...

d..z

...

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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by D_Archer » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:23 am

dahlenaz wrote:Getting back to the hexagonal aspects of craters and other notable features associated with planets,
such as Jupiter's polar hexagon, i just listened to a space news video where Don Scott stated that
the cause of the rings around the hexagon are understood by him and others but they can't explain
what causes the hexagon...
In another video done by Peter Jupp, he interviews Wal Thornhill on comets and planets and he states that
all bodies can be considered as electrets, an electret "gives off a permanent static electrical field"...

Which raises a question in my mind,,, doesn't this bring us back to an experiment
which i mentioned earlier, where an active plasma ball was brought into close proximity to
the electro-static field of an energized CRT?
The result was that at the point of nearest proximity, one group of plasma filaments
became gathered within a polygonal boundary that stayed around the filaments
as long as the ball remained in close proximity.

So my suggestion earlier; that the planet's magnetic field plays an essential role in the formation of precise
geometric shapes,, such as hexagons, where plasma filaments are active,,, seems to be something other than
a dumb idea from a backyard experimenter... Those experiment results were shared with the thunderbolts group
back when first observed..

Score another one for the backyard experimenter with no PHD, masters or related degrees,
just the leading of the Spirit of God that would like us to solve this puzzle...

d..z

...
Charge goes both ways through the body proper (planet). So at one pole there is incoming and outgoing charge (ie magnetism or flux). Miles Mathis says charge is photons , the outgoing and ingoing streams would not collide but move past each other, creating the concentric cylinders, this is because the photons as per Miles Mathis also spin, and the in and outgoing through charge spin a different way, so they would move past each other, (driving other interactions, from ions/electrons/molecules) forcing the directions of motion, some cylinders/streams clockwise others counterclockwise. The very small would seem to drive the larger.

Charge photons is magnetism so the magnetic field does play an important role.

Regards,
Daniel
- Shoot Forth Thunder -

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dahlenaz
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Re: Thunderbolts and Lightning Craters

Unread post by dahlenaz » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:45 am

D_Archer wrote:
dahlenaz wrote:Getting back to the hexagonal aspects of craters and other notable features associated with planets,
such as Jupiter's polar hexagon, i just listened to a space news video where Don Scott stated that
the cause of the rings around the hexagon are understood by him and others but they can't explain
what causes the hexagon...
In another video done by Peter Jupp, he interviews Wal Thornhill on comets and planets and he states that
all bodies can be considered as electrets, an electret "gives off a permanent static electrical field"...

Which raises a question in my mind,,, doesn't this bring us back to an experiment
which i mentioned earlier, where an active plasma ball was brought into close proximity to
the electro-static field of an energized CRT?
The result was that at the point of nearest proximity, one group of plasma filaments
became gathered within a polygonal boundary that stayed around the filaments
as long as the ball remained in close proximity.

So my suggestion earlier; that the planet's magnetic field plays an essential role in the formation of precise
geometric shapes,, such as hexagons, where plasma filaments are active,,, seems to be something other than
a dumb idea from a backyard experimenter... Those experiment results were shared with the thunderbolts group
back when first observed..

Score another one for the backyard experimenter with no PHD, masters or related degrees,
just the leading of the Spirit of God that would like us to solve this puzzle...

d..z

...
Charge goes both ways through the body proper (planet). So at one pole there is incoming and outgoing charge (ie magnetism or flux). Miles Mathis says charge is photons , the outgoing and ingoing streams would not collide but move past each other, creating the concentric cylinders, this is because the photons as per Miles Mathis also spin, and the in and outgoing through charge spin a different way, so they would move past each other, (driving other interactions, from ions/electrons/molecules) forcing the directions of motion, some cylinders/streams clockwise others counterclockwise. The very small would seem to drive the larger.

Charge photons is magnetism so the magnetic field does play an important role.

Regards,
Daniel
I can sure imagine this and based on observations, during experiments with electrostatic discharges,
the dual-flow may have been accompanied by a reaction at the material side as it would
switch polarity,, jumping up and down, from surface to probe and back again repeatedly.

The dual-flow may not have been apparent in the plasma ball experiment but it may have been
occurring within the globe.. Outside of the globe, and where it was in close proximity
to the CRT screen i could not tell what was occurring since the screen was clear of material.
I thought i did an experiment with a dust covering but i can't find a video,, i got distracted
by the unexpected formation of the dark hexagonal boundary,,, just like what is seen on Jupiter.

Image
Larger Image link

I will upload a video soon of the a side-by-side comparison of this animation and part of the experiment video.

In the animation you can see clearly the regions of alternate spin which you have mentioned..

d..z

...

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