Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby comingfrom » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:42 pm

bdw000 wrote:Some pics of nuclear test site craters are eerily similar to some of the lunar and Martian craters we are all familiar with.
The dendritic formations around near the rim are interesting, and similar to some Martian craters, but the bottom is clearly very different, indicating a different formation process.

imo
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby webolife » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:07 am

Hmmm... raindrops do leave elongated marks on surfaces that are not orthogonal to the direction of fall, likely because of droplet deformation. But simulations of crater formation that I've done show what DZ also affirmed, that solid bodies hitting a granular surface leave a symmetric circular[ish] crater regardless of angle of impact unless it's a grazing blow. I suppose there is a minimum angle below which the symmetry is not produced, but regardless of that, impacts of solid bodies are the most elegant model for crater formation yet seen, and entirely reproducible in the lab. Try for yourself, the crustal deformation, the rays, the flat bottoms, all are reproducible with golf balls thrown into a pan of flour sprinkled with cocoa.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:30 am

Bomb20 wrote:I know you are Charles' diligent supporter, Lloyd! However, the so called "theory" is rather an idea or hypothesis. The explanation with the crust is an ad-hoc idea to save it and I can not even see real similarites between Barringer & Co. and TN blasts - like the other contributors. However, the hypothesis has one great advantage. If radioactivity is tested in situ, e.g. on Mars, then it is easy to falsify.


I support whatever theory makes the most sense to me. I used to support Thornhill and Scott, but Charles explains things much better than they do, so now I support Charles.

My idea about the oval craters along a lunar crack being the result of horizontal movement of thin crust is not ad hoc. There's good evidence that rock can melt and probably started out molten and that it forms solid crust as it cools and it cools from the outside in usually. A string of impacts (as seen in this same image: https://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/3-moon/20121105_moon_lroc_crater_chain_M102443238LRC_10mpix.jpg) would tend to crack a thin crust and the only way I know that such a string of craters could be made oval is if the crust moved horizontally, which is what it looks like did happen. Does anyone else have a better idea? Schroeter's Valley by the Aristarchus crater on the Moon does appear to be an electrically formed rille, but the one shown here does not.

I don't know if radioactivity from an impact would remain for several thousand years, nor what radioactive elements are likely to form from it. I know that thorium is fairly abundant on the Moon's near side (See https://oncirculation.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/moon.png). Looks like there's uranium too (See http://www.space.com/images/i/000/005/403/original/new-moon-uranium-map-100622-02.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none&fit=inside|660:*). I think there's also radioactive potassium. Anyway, there apparently isn't enough detail in the theory yet to be falsifiable.
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby JouniJokela » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:37 am

Another really interesting discussion here;

I studied the aspects of Radioactivity, and came to a conclusion that radioactivity is depended on the emitted/absorbed radiation (photons) and as these photons are emitted in opposite direction compared to movement of the particle. This idea predicts that the radioactive decay is bigger in the trailing edge of the moving object, and I figured out that this can be observed in the round planets/moons which doesnt' have atmosphere, as the Solar system is moving towards north pole, so the south poles should have more craters caused by radioactive decay. These can be well obserwerd in Mercury and Moon. Mars is not supporting this theory, but I have found another explanation for it. The best proof is Saturn moon Mimas.

Image

As the moon is tidally fixed the trailing edge is exactly there where this "mysterious crater" is. I have written this issue more widely open in this paper of mine;
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Everything
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:58 pm

Jouni, what do you think caused the hot spots on Mimas? Since the hot spots are away from the large crater location, would the impact have somehow caused the crater location to cool faster? Or is the hot spot caused by increased radioactivity away from the crater? What would cause more radioactivity away from the crater? Or what else could the image mean?
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby JouniJokela » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:30 pm

^ First the basic idea; Radiation of Heat is photons.
So the basic question is "What causes these photons to be emitted?"

And here is two hot areas.
There is the Hot front (Leading edge) caused by the collisions to the particles; Left side on the "Actual temperatures" having 90-94 K (yellow). The reason is clear; particle collision loads the energy needed for these photon emissions.

Then there is the right side; (The trailing edge) being generally 74-78 K (blue). This is the area which emits heat, which is simply conducted from the hotter areas.

But then there is this crater in the middle of the Trailing edge, being 82-84 K (Lila).
It's hotter than the surroundings, and it's at the greatest distance from the hot front! So Conduction is not an option for explanation. The object is also pretty solid (<100 K) , so the convection is not really an option.
It's theoretically possible though, to show what it means, I make the reasoning here; maybe the hot particles hitting in the front, orbits the object in a ballistic trajectory and are landing to this point because of gravity.
But this can't be True, as we should have a material mountain at this landing point! Instead of that we have a crater.

The radiation of heat (from Sun) offers also a possibility. But if you study the information (here);
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia12867.html
The white sun symbol shows the point where the sun is directly overhead, which is at midday close to the equator. Just as on Earth, the highest temperatures (shown in yellow) were expected to occur after midday, in the early afternoon.


So the heat in crater is in totally wrong place even if we think external radiation. As we have now closed out all options for Heat transfer, we only have the one option left; the own internal heat production.
And this heat production seems to be combined with the loss of matter, as the crater is also there where the heat is. Pls. do the thinking by yourself; -> E=mc^2

I want to point out, that I didn't know about this mimas. I produced the theory for Radioactive decay through Relativity theory, and though it already predicted ie. sonoluminesence, I realised that it also predicts the increased decay on Trailing edge, and I started to seek objects, which could verify this hypothesis. And this way I found mimas.

Here's the link to this paper;
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294535112_QED_explanation_for_Gravity_and_Radioactivity_Theory_of_Everything Chapters 2.3-2.4.
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby comingfrom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:14 pm

^ First the basic idea; Radiation of Heat is photons.
So the basic question is "What causes these photons to be emitted?"

I think the first basic question should be, "what is a photon?".

Since photons are everywhere, it is quite possible that atoms are simply recycling them, when you consider that everything that is above 0 degrees Kelvin emits them.

Then we can begin to consider how Mimas might be recycling them
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby dahlenaz » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:29 am

Some time ago, based on observations from experiments, the thought came to mind about
looking at some planetary scarring from the perspective of a "self-scarring planet or moon"
This was imagined to be related to solar exposure on one side of some bodies for extended
periods of time (along with other influences) and the possibility of electrical discharge across
the day/night line or to the anti-hemispheric region. Trans-lunar phenomena and lofted lunar
dust were among the symptoms of the imagined activity..

Is the suggested process of photon activity, radiation, heat emissions and thermal exchange
any of what should be expected or is possible if viewed from the suggestion of electrical
imbalance across the surface of a body in the space-plasma environment? d..z

...
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby JouniJokela » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:25 am

Photon is strength which is emitted away from the particle or absorbed by the particle.
- It's impossible that a particle emits photons infinitely.
- It's also impossible that a particle absorbs photons infinitely.

The emitting ends to the decay of the particle. At the the end the whole particle has decayed and ceased to exist.
This can be observed as a loss of matter.

The absorbtion ends "never", but as more photons are absorbed, the propability grows that the opposite reaction to decay occures; Matter is created.

But what exactly causes the photon to be emitted?
First we need to understand; "What is photon." We know it has a fixed speed and it goes straight line in vacuum.
It's also said that photon has no mass, though mass is energy and photon has energy. This energy is defined through wave-length and/or frequency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy
Photons being massless, the notion of "photon energy" is not related to mass through the equivalence E = mc2.

That this is obviously contradiction, doesn't seem to disturb anyone. Though Galileo said allready;
http://www.conservapedia.com/Galileo's_maxim
"two truths can never contradict each other"

So either;
1.the Photon has mass
or
2. Energy doesn't have mass.

As the opposite for option 1. has been verified with measurements, the Option 2. must be accepted as truth.

This frees us from a lot of debates;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariant_mass

But we can simply shut down this as a meaningless debate, If we just forget the mass!
What then makes the difference between matter and photon?
We have two options;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction

The time dilation is said to be verified by the measurements with atomic clocks;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock But these clocks seems to be even temperature sensitive!
So is time temperature sensitive? But what is temperature other than movement/velocity. And what is Thermal expansion other than increase in length. And greater lenght obviously takes more time to travel if the speed is constant. So I think time is also constant; i.e. there is no time dilation.

Thus length contraction is the only think we would have; and this reveals us the possibilty to understand the nature of photon.

Photon is strenght(massless energy) without a volume. Matter is energy with volume. So if you push the matter to zero volume, it's forced to decay away in photons. This will happen for any material which reaches the speed of light. The photon will be emitted on the opposite direction to the movement. This means that photons are always emitted to the opposite direction to the movement. If the particle is hold in place through magnetic interactions (in solid matter) then this movement happens back-and-forth and the photons are thus emitted in all directions.

When a object of solid matter is moving all the particles are emitting more photons in the opposite direction to the movement compared to the other directions. This means that particles in leading edge of the object is emitting photons inside the object, and these photons can be reflected through the other particles of this object.

...At this point it might be necessary to study this lection of QED from Richard Feynman, 50 min forward, The punch-line is at 55 min ; "You get nothing"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLQ2atfqk2c&list=PLkLaruvqdNx8xJOZ1HXqtSbsPQtdulSm-&index=1
This reflection is dependent on the material thickness, and some particles get simply nothing from the other particles, though they emit as the others, they get nothing by them self. These particles are located in the Trailing edge of the object, and thus they decay away.

This can be proven also by another aspect; the particles in leading edge should receive more photons, and thus there should happen material creation. This can also be clearly observed on the moon; the lunar north-pole on the Earthside has an area with practically no craters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#/media/File:LRO_WAC_Nearside_Mosaic.jpg
This is the part which constantly receives more light (reflected from earth) than any other part of the moon, but it's also on the Leading edge compared to the orbital movement and to the movement of the whole solarsystem.

This writing starts to get quite long,,, I stop here now., but if you think this is something new, google
"Roger Bacon Opus Majus On the multiplication of species" Here the word "species" means photons and he explained on year 1267 allready very correctly how everything is from light. He also explained optics with about same level as Newton did, only 400 years earlier...
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby nick c » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:18 am

Any in depth discussion of JouniJokela's theories should be done on the NIAMI board. There is already a thread on that board devoted to that topic.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16249

Posts on the "Electric Universe - Planetary Science" board should be focused upon topics covered in the published material of the Thunderbolts Project.
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby JouniJokela » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:44 am

About the crater formation;

With my post I am not trying to claim it's the only truth. I think there is three mechanisms for Crater-Formation

1. Impact craters.
- Plain an simple. There are metorites, and these produces craters.

2. Plasma-created craters.
- This approach I found when solving the movement of the Mercury. It's Caloris basin is said to be the single biggest crater in the solar system. (I leave the Mars-north-pole impact-crater theory out with a smile,,,, ;) )
Here's the wiki with a good foto; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloris_Planitia
This crater is clearly created by plasma-creation. I have written it open here;
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216591/mercurys-rotation-disturbations-caused-by-thermodynamics
Shortly said, Mercury's sunny side is shooting plasma with a rate of 12 Mio tons in second.
Further examples are the Venus arachnoids;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachnoid_(astrogeology)

3. Radioactive-decay-created craters.
This is the stuffy I explained above.

The plasma-craters and Radioactive craters have their counterparts. These are places where matter is produced in reversed process.

The reverse process for plasma can be seen in Moon. The last link in my long answer above.
The reverse process for Radioactive decay can be seen in "Chaos-terrain";
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conamara_ ... _Rafts.jpg

But the best proves for such a process is the Iron. Why Iron? Longer story but the answer is basically found from the atomic-table. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron-56 Fusion or Fission, most probably you end up having Iron.

The Largest known meterorite in Earth is actually such a Iron piece;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoba_meteorite

But Funnily enough it has no crater! And it's also flat. The Feynman lection linked previously helps to understand the smile caused by flat-aspect.
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:01 am

There are two more types of craters to include,, one decribed earlier, which has a branch where
type of substance is involved,, either fluid or gas, and how they interact with their environment.
The next one would be contraction, which could be seen as void creation and exposure, it could be
thought of as the failed or delayed phase of the dynamics involved in the fluid or gas heating/cooling
transaction with surrounding materials.

It is quite disappointing that full development of all the potential processes has not been developed
as an extension of the Thunderbolts Project, even when it comes to the electrical process, i thought
that to be the objective of meeting of minds,,, rather than just inflating or contorting one possibility..

Charles' statement in criticism of electrical discharge craters, between a meteor and a larger body,
addressed an imagined limitation related to the meteor's capability to hold charge. This misses something
that was revealed from experiments with eletrostatic discharge. The charge potential was at the larger
body's surface and discharge was to the approaching body, detaching some material from the surface
of the larger body and transferring it to the smaller through the discharge path.. d..z

...
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby JouniJokela » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:03 am

dahlenaz wrote:There are two more types of craters to include,, one decribed earlier, which has a branch where
type of substance is involved,, either fluid or gas, and how they interact with their environment.
The next one would be contraction,


I agree. To anlayze this all through observations i share this link;
http://news.discovery.com/space/asteroi ... 111230.htm

there is this picture; I give the types following numbers to ease the conversation;
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

Image

So if we look these "Wierd Craters", none of them seem like impact craters;

Here's some video about the force-dynamics of an impact;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j67suAOHJBw
As it can be seen, the forces, also when the impact is explosion-like are going forward as a conus.
The result of impact is thus only these kind of craters; (picture from here; http://www.teknofor.com/)

Image

So the flat-bottom Crater "7" simply can't be an Impact crater. The wierdness of this crater still comes from the right side of the crater wall, How can it have such a transition?

Another interesting aspect is that these "Double-craters" "2" and "4" are exactly same size, meaning that the impactor should have been split to exactly two same sized pieces.

In pictures "1" and "6" the impact energy should have been delayed over time..
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:23 am

Let's have some fun! Or at least I'm hoping to learn how to do that with others.

Play Games with Me. I invite you and others to my new thread on improving science and science discussion at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16278&p=112941#p112941. I started a game there, called Doutery. Its purpose is to improve critical thinking and science discussion. I want to practice the game with other critical thinkers and improve the game enough to perhaps have an effect on improving science. The game will have to be FUN in order to succeed. To me it will probably be fun already, but for others it may need tinkering with to make it much better. So I hope you can take a little time to post there for a while, like for a few days or weeks, if you like. I submitted Big Bang as a theory for Doutery, but feel free to submit other theories, even including your own, if you like. We're not trying to disprove any theory, but only to find the best counter-evidence to theories. That should help improve critical thinking, which science greatly needs, I think. Right?
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Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:09 pm

I hope I'm not interrupting the topic here too much. I welcome anyone to play the following game. You're welcome to submit facts about craters etc.

Play Science
I invite anyone to play what I think is a better game than what I tried previously. I call this game SUPERVIEW. All you do is state a little-known fact and a reference. Play the game starting at this post in my CNPS thread: http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16278&p=113004#p113004.
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