Latest from Enceladus

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby solrey » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:52 am

Duh, on me. I had forgotten that they listed the energy levels for the +ions too, which were three orders of magnitude more energetic than the electron energies. Still, the point was to show that there is more than enough energy acting on the negative ions, which I would assume to be equivalent to the electron energies, anyways.
So in the previous example, the ions would be the negative ones, not the positive ones at keV energies.
Just wanted to be more clear on that.

peace
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla
User avatar
solrey
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby jjohnson » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:53 am

I wonder if any radio telescope images have ever been constructed of the Enceladus-Saturn environment in detail, which, given the amount of H+ ions (protons) present in the plumes, should show up pretty well in those wavelengths. The grain-size particles could be water ice or something else, should be getting electrostatically charged up, making them "hotter" in the sense that they react more strongly with negative ions and electrons in the mix - move faster - and readily get "entrained" in the outward plasma flow. Enceladus is small so its escape velocity is low, but I'd bet few particles escape because of their being governed almost wholly by the E/M forces in the plasma, and not the gravity of either the moon nor huge Saturn. The plumes are guided up into the icy plasma ring.

Too bad that the Cassini spacecraft mission dynamics don't allow longer dwell times, or going into a slow orbit and sampling over months. These quick sampling and photography passes are useful, but really tantalizing, begging for a lot more data to better satisfy our curiosity to know the whole story in this system.
jjohnson
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:05 pm

Lest anyone forget this gem that goes right along with the rest:

(Electrically Charged Particles Found in Enceladus' Plumes)
http://www.universetoday.com/2009/04/21 ... us-plumes/

The CAPS instrument is designed to detect charged gas (plasma), but its measurements in the plume revealed tiny ice grains whose signatures could only be present if they were electrically charged.


Electrical charges, in space? Get out of here! Really?

The particles have both positive and negative electrical charges, and the mix of the charges varied as the Cassini spacecraft crossed the plume.


Positives AND negatives? Wow! Heavy...

"What are particularly fascinating are the bursts of dust that CAPS detects when Cassini passes through the individual jets in the plume" says Jones. “Each jet is split according to charge though”, adds Arridge, "Negative grains are on one side, and positive ones on the other."


Seems the plumes are charge-separated. Might it constitute a DL, perchance? Just some informed "idle speculation." ;)

Apologies on the rampant sarcasm above...

Best,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law
User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
 
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby MGmirkin » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:27 pm

Let us also not forget the tentative Enceladus-comet link:

(Cassini 'tastes' organic brew at Saturn’s geyser moon)
http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Cassini-Huygen ... 3EF_0.html

scientists say the organics ‘taste and smell’ like some of those found in a comet.


"A completely unexpected surprise is that the chemistry of Enceladus, what's coming out from inside, resembles that of a comet," said Hunter Waite, principal investigator for the Cassini Ion and Neutral Mass Spectrometer at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio.


Of course, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they quickly back-pedal, putting the brakes on, sine in their models the two can't possibly have any logical connection.

"Enceladus is by no means a comet. Comets have tails and orbit the sun, and Enceladus's activity is powered by internal heat while comet activity is powered by sunlight. Enceladus's brew is like carbonated water with an essence of natural gas," said Waite.


But, what if they *do* share common cause for common results and it just happens to *not* be for the reasons they're considering under their models?

(Saturn's moon Enceladus surprisingly comet-like)
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13541

Saturn's curious moon Enceladus appears to have the same chemical makeup as a comet, according to the latest results from the Cassini probe. That's a big surprise, as Enceladus should have formed in very different conditions from those of comets.


As well as water vapour, the INMS detected carbon dioxide, methane and a range of more complex organic chemicals such as propane.

"The organics are clearly there in abundance beyond what we expected," says INMS lead scientist Hunter Waite of the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, US. "And the composition is very like the composition of a comet."


That is rather puzzling because comets are thought to have formed far from the Sun, out in the region of Uranus and Neptune, says INMS co-investigator Roger Yelle of the University of Arizona in Tucson, US. Enceladus, on the other hand, is thought to have grown within the "Saturnian subnebula" - the cloud of gas that coalesced into Saturn and its major moons.

"The temperature and pressure should have been very different, so you should get different gases," Yelle told New Scientist.


So, are the results wrong, or are existing models wrong?

The alternative seems to be something not unlike the Electric Comet Model. Cathode sputtering, etc.

(The Electric Comet)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf

While it was written about Io, one is also tempted to consider this paper in light of Enceladus' comet-like qualities...

(A cometary ionosphere model for Io)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978Ap%26SS..55...93C

Perhaps not precisely the same thing, but certainly a path to follow...

Best,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law
User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
 
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby solrey » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:04 pm

Excellent links, Michael. I had forgotten about the one covering charge separation in the plumes.

Volatiles associated with comets were detected in the LCROSS lunar impact plume as well.

Water found in lunar impact probably came from comets
The first line of evidence comes from compounds that vaporise readily, called volatiles. LCROSS found spectral signs of volatiles containing carbon and hydrogen – likely methane and ethanol – as well as others such as ammonia and carbon dioxide. "It appears that we impacted into a very volatile-rich area," LCROSS principal scientist Tony Colaprete told the conference.
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla
User avatar
solrey
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby mharratsc » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:07 pm

I think there is only one reason why they are approaching this thing completely backarsewards:

All it would take would be one well-organized experiment to prove everything that you guys deduced from the above articles were true;

All it would take is one absolutely unquestionable corroboration of the facts out there on the rings of Saturn to shut down the experiment and move their funding to another division. :\

NASA is one of those few places on planet Earth where selective ignorance and cognitive lethargy results in greater, vs. lesser, job security. >.<
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington
mharratsc
 
Posts: 1405
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:37 am

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby solrey » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:44 pm

Mike, you probably won't be surprised to learn that they already have proven it in the lab.

Refractory comet dust analogues by laser bombardment and arc discharge production: a reference frame for “dusty experiments” on-board ROSETTA
A number of instruments included in the ROSETTA payload are aimed at characterising the cometary dust properties. An important issue will be the nature of these dusts that will include organic (CHON), mixed CHON-silicate, and silicate dust, and ice grains, that are probably arranged in more or less heterogeneous fluffy agglomerates. The dust can be completely amorphous, partially structured and crystalline and these grains may coexist at small scales. Laboratory analysis of the morphological, crystallographic and chemical properties of cometary grain analogues produced in controlled laboratory conditions will play a critical role in the success of the ROSETTA mission. The results obtained by these laboratory analysis can be used to test and calibrate the instruments that will be sent to comet 46P/Wirtanen by this mission. The interpretations of returned scientific data will strongly benefit by the comparison with data recorded by the instruments in ground tests for different classes of analogues previously well characterised with various analytical techniques in the laboratory. In this paper we describe our facilities to produce and characterise elemental carbon, hydrogenated carbon, silicate and mixed carbon-silicate grains by laser bombardment and arc discharge techniques. We use field emission scanning electron microscopy and transmission and analytical electron microscopy to identify the textures, morphologies and grain compositions and structures in analogue samples. Spectroscopy (from far ultraviolet to far infrared) is used to study their optical responses. Some analogue properties, e.g. grain texture and morphology, are similar to those detected in chondritic interplanetary dust particles that may include solid debris from periodic comets.


Hydrogenated carbon...that would be the methyl group I believe, CH3 "radical" (unpaired electrons and very reactive) and CH4 (methane) and probably C2H6 (ethane)
They used laser bombardment and arc discharge to simulate comet chemistry in order to calibrate the ROSETTA probe for the study of real comets. Yet they're still stuck on dirty snowballs and geysers. :roll:

At least we have confirmatory data available from their experiments. 8-)

I believe that within the upper eschelons of all large institutions, like NASA, there is a strong tendency towards selective ignorance and cognitive dissonance. However I think that most of the folks "in the trenches", so to speak, are trying to do honest work with the tools (including education) available, like our friend saul who works with IBEX.
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla
User avatar
solrey
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby mharratsc » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:09 pm

Well the funny thing is- if they 'calibrate' this probe by putting in the data from their arc discharge transmutations... and then they fly the expensive lil bugger out past a comet and see *exactly* the same compounds... that proves that the comets are doing it the same way! Case closed!

You posted those other articles that showed they're even putting meters equipped with Langmuir probes on those cometary probes... they know that those comets are electrical now, and they are trying to map out the physical dynamics of them. They just haven't come out with any 'public' releases on the new tune they're whistling.

To arrive at any other conclusion regarding the production of ionic compounds in the face of these newer experiments would be unconscionable. :\
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington
mharratsc
 
Posts: 1405
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:37 am

Enceladus - water molecules with extra electrons

Unread postby MattEU » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:17 pm

"Cassini detection adds to Enceladus liquid water story"

There seems little doubt that Saturn's moon Enceladus hides a large body of liquid water beneath its icy skin.

The Cassini probe, which periodically sweeps past the little moon, has returned yet more data to back up the idea of a sub-surface sea.

This time, it is the detection of negatively charged water molecules in the atmosphere of Enceladus.

On Earth, such ions are often seen where liquid water is in motion, such as waterfalls or crashing ocean waves.

There are no "rollers" on the moon but it does have a very active region near its south pole where water vapour and ice particles shoot through cracks in the surface and rise high into the Enceladian sky.

"We see water molecules that have additional electrons added," explained Andrew Coates from University College London's Mullard Space Science Laboratory.

"There are two ways they could be added - from the ambient plasma environment, or it could be to do with friction as these water clusters come out of the jets, like rubbing a balloon and sticking it on the ceiling," he told BBC News.

Cassini has already detected sodium in the plumes - a signature of the dissolved salts you would expect to find in any mass of liquid water that had been in contact with rock deep within the world for a long period.

The latest observations were made using the Cassini plasma spectrometer (Caps). The instrument was originally flown to acquire data on Saturn's magnetic environment, by measuring the density, flow velocity and temperature of ions and electrons that enter the instrument.

It was never envisaged that Caps would also end up sampling jets at Enceladus and adding to what has become a very compelling story.

"While it's no surprise that there is water there, these short-lived ions are extra evidence for sub-surface water and where there's water, carbon and energy, some of the major ingredients for life are present," said Dr Coates.

"The surprise for us was to look at the mass of these ions. There were several peaks in the spectrum, and when we analysed them we saw the effect of water molecules clustering together one after the other."

Dr Coates and colleagues report the Caps data in the journal Icarus. The measurments were made as the probe plunged through the plumes of Enceladus in a close fly-by in 2008.

Caps found not just the negatively charged water ions but hints of negatively charged hydrocarbons, too. Positively charged hydrocarbons at Enceladus have already been identified by Cassini's Ion and Neutral Mass Spectrometer (INMS).

Where Caps has definitely seen negatively charged hydrocarbons is at Saturn's largest moon, Titan. There, it found colossal ions, some measuring more than 13,000 amu (an amu is roughly the mass of a single hydrogen atom).

"If you have a methane and nitrogen atmosphere and you bombard it with particles from the Saturn's magnetosphere and ultraviolet light from the Sun, you can cook up really large molecules," explained Dr Coates.

"They get bigger as the altitude decreases. They are the source of Titan's haze and also maybe the source of the dunes on the surface as they rain down."

Cassini is a joint venture between the US space agency (Nasa), the European Space Agency (Esa) and the Italian Space Agency (ASI).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8495663.stm
User avatar
MattEU
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Enceladus - water molecules with extra electrons

Unread postby solrey » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:16 pm

Full paper in pdf here (79 pages):
Enceladus: An Active Cryovolcanic Satellite

Even in the absence of tidal heating, a conductive Enceladus is marginally capable of differentiating in the presence of long-lived radionuclides, and is certain to differentiate if significant amounts of the short-lived nuclide 26Al are present at the time of its formation (Schubert et al. 2007).


They don't even entertain the possibility of electrical discharge though they mention a "conductive Enceladus", even with what is known about the plasma/electric/magnetic environment of Enceladus, they are still stuck on various convoluted forms of mechanical "tidal heating".
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla
User avatar
solrey
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Michio Kaku: 'This Is a Game Changer'

Unread postby junglelord » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:21 pm

Its back to gravity and friction.....as a new energy source.

Watch and scrub your brain....

Theoretical physics professor reacts to new images of ice geysers on Saturn moon
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4055086/mich ... y_id=86861
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
User avatar
junglelord
 
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:39 am
Location: Canada

Re: Michio Kaku: 'This Is a Game Changer'

Unread postby nick c » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:35 pm

Michio Kaku, from the interview:
By rights, Enceladus, this moon of Saturn should be frozen over. We are a billion miles from the Sun...

Translation: we have no explanation for this phenomenon, our theories did not predict this and cannot explain it, we expected a dead frozen world.
Then he goes on to explain how the plumes are generated by Enceladus "being squeezed by gravity" creating friction and heat within the moon.

From "Enceladus' Cometary Plumes":
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=xcafwdgn
Wal Thornhill wrote:According to the usual geological arguments, Enceladus’ plumes require some form of internal heating. Of course, NASA is quick to exploit any suggestion of subsurface liquid water on another body in the solar system as a reason for further missions to look for signs of life. But a source for that heat is not apparent. Susan Kieffer, a geology professor and planetary scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, observed, "This tiny satellite should be cold and inactive, like our own moon. But it isn't." Modeling the maximum heat available from tidal distortion and radiogenic heating from a rocky core fails by an order of magnitude to explain the energy of the plumes. It also fails to explain the concentration of heat at Enceladus’ south pole. So, what if Kieffer’s intuition was correct and Enceladus is “cold and inactive?” Could the measured heat and the energy to drive the plumes come from space?
[...]
Both Saturn and Enceladus have surprisingly ‘hot’ south poles. Planetary scientists can see no connection. The vast disparity in size and lack of appreciable atmosphere on Enceladus renders comparisons seemingly pointless. However, more surprising was the discovery that Saturn has a hot spot at its north pole, which has been in darkness for 13 years. But a greater mystery within that enigma is a hexagonal feature inside Saturn’s auroral discharge. I explained in January, “The polar hot spot and long-lived hexagonal feature result from a continuous electric current flowing from the Sun into the pole of Saturn. The hot spot will remain for as long as the Sun shines electrically.” Now, what do we find encircling the ‘hot’ south pole of Enceladus but another polygonal feature.

highlight added


Also, "The Jets of Enceladus":
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... onjets.htm

Nick
User avatar
nick c
Moderator
 
Posts: 2457
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:12 pm
Location: connecticut

Re: Michio Kaku: 'This Is a Game Changer'

Unread postby junglelord » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:25 am

Perhaps they should REALLY change the game by introducing Plasma physics and the EU model.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... onjets.htm
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
User avatar
junglelord
 
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:39 am
Location: Canada

Re: Michio Kaku: 'This Is a Game Changer'

Unread postby jjohnson » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:31 pm

The aspect of these geysers that is obscured is how Cassini detected them other than by images made in visual light showing the discharges back-illuminated by the Sun.

A team from the Mullard Space Science Laboratory working on the Cassini-Huygens mission have found negatively charged water ions in the ice plume of Enceladus.
Their analysis of data gathered during the spacecraft's plume fly-throughs in 2008 provide evidence for the presence of liquid water.
The spacecraft's plasma spectrometer, used to gather this data, also found other species of negatively charged ions including hydrocarbons.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100209144657.htm

The geysers are not just liquid water like the steam condensate from Old Faithful. The detected particles are not frozen ice crystals clattering against a microphone diaphragm. They are ionized water molecules and other ionized species detected by the plasma spectrometer. Plasma. Micron-sized charged particles moving in electric currents from Enceladus's "geysers" are the source of Saturn's watery blue E-ring.

http://www.solarviews.com/cap/sat/ering1.htm

One of the unusual characteristics of the E-ring is that it is predominately composed of micron sized grains with a distinct blue color. When particles are ejected into space they are subject to the gravitational forces that control the orbits of the moons and planets; however, small particles are greatly affected by other forces such as light pressure from the Sun, and electromagnetic fields around Saturn. Micron sized particles seem to be privileged. The gravitational and size-dependent non-gravitational forces balance for micron size particles. Only micron-sized particles can survive for long periods of time and spread out over the large expanse of the E-ring.


The Electric Model demonstrates how the materials can be accelerated off the surface of Enceladus with a minimum of fuss. It would be useful to find that there are data which support evidence of there being electric currents incident upon the moon which cause the hot spots, and which create the fields which discharge surface or near-surface materials into space.

"Dear Michio..."
jjohnson
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: Michio Kaku: 'This Is a Game Changer'

Unread postby junglelord » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:28 pm

The geysers are not just liquid water like the steam condensate from Old Faithful. The detected particles are not frozen ice crystals clattering against a microphone diaphragm. They are ionized water molecules and other ionized species detected by the plasma spectrometer. Plasma. Micron-sized charged particles moving in electric currents from Enceladus's "geysers" are the source of Saturn's watery blue E-ring.

Way to go JJ, GREAT POST!
:D

You nailed the hole in the coffin!
Plasma spectrometer is the device of detection, yet no plasma physics to explain it...how quaint.
Are they sure he is as smart as they say he is?
:?


SOOOOOO, its a game changer, yet he won't change games...I am confused.
Just what are they trying to pull anyway?

How can plasma physics NOT be involved?
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
User avatar
junglelord
 
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:39 am
Location: Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Universe - Planetary Science

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests