Latest from Enceladus

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Latest from Enceladus

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:40 am

Results are in! One is obliged to point out this recent article on Enceladus' plumes:

(Electrically Charged Particles Found in Enceladus’ Plumes)
http://www.universetoday.com/2009/04/21 ... us-plumes/

The spectrometer on Cassini, the Cassini Plasma Spectrometer (CAPS) discovered a surprise: the ice particles are electrically charged.

[...]

The CAPS instrument is designed to detect charged gas (plasma), but its measurements in the plume revealed tiny ice grains whose signatures could only be present if they were electrically charged.

[...]

The particles have both positive and negative electrical charges, and the mix of the charges varied as the Cassini spacecraft crossed the plume.

[...]

Jones and Arridge suggest that the grains may be charged through so-called triboelectric processes, through bumping together in the vent below Enceladus’s surface before they emerge into the plume. [Framed hypothesis?]

[...]

“What are particularly fascinating are the bursts of dust that CAPS detects when Cassini passes through the individual jets in the plume” says Jones. “Each jet is split according to charge though”, adds Arridge, “Negative grains are on one side, and positive ones on the other”. [Double layers? Birkeland currents?]


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Re: Latest from Enceladus

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:56 pm

I've theorized a few years ago that Enceladus is a big spherical electrolyte :)
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Sodium in Enceladus Plumes

Unread postby FS3 » Mon May 04, 2009 6:19 pm

The Cassini spacecraft flew through a plume on 9 October 2008 and measured the molecular weight of chemicals in the ice. Scientists of the Max Planck Institute for Nuclear Physics in Heidelberg, Germany, have detected traces of Sodium now, in the form of salt and Sodium Bicarbonate...

It was immideately theorized that the cause was that those ice plumes are "almost certainly" rooted in a subsurface sea of liquid water.

Salt in Enceladus geyser points to liquid ocean

EU although proposes a likely more realistic origin of that salts.

As suggested for a possible electrical spark machining-mechanism of Mercury’s and Mars’s surfaces already the source and energies of sodium, potassium and other ions that have been detected in exospheres might be as well electrical. Chlorine and Sodium are strongly related in low-energy nuclear transformations of light elements by electrical sputtering.

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Re: Latest from Enceladus

Unread postby solrey » Mon May 04, 2009 7:37 pm

The newest information on the most recent Mercury flyby's detected surface "sputtering", sodium, calcium and magnesium in the exosphere, and they happened to fly through a "magnetic tornado" ( discharge vortex ) ripping ions from the surface. It seems likely that electric sputtering is the source of the salt and sodium bicarbonate on Enceladus as well. The question is, are those elements created by the electric sputtering, or are they present on the surface? Even if present on the surface, that doesn't imply a liquid ocean underneath, just that the frozen surface contains those elements in frozen solution.

This image from Cassini shows a huge feature on Enceladus that looks just like a discharge vortex (tornado) in vertical cross section.
8-)

Image

Twisted filaments in 2-D?

Image

So MESSENGER flew through and collected in-situ data on a discharge vortex, EDM event, and ongoing sputtering on Mercury, and here we see a blatant, 2-D sculpture, of a discharge vortex on Enceladus with in-situ data on sputtering from the "plumes".

How much longer can mainstream scientists ignore this stuff?
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Re: Latest from Enceladus

Unread postby davesmith_au » Wed May 06, 2009 4:28 pm

solrey wrote:How much longer can mainstream scientists ignore this stuff?


For as long as they keep getting funding for their gravity-centric dogma...

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Re: Latest from Enceladus

Unread postby rcglinsk » Wed May 06, 2009 6:45 pm

This is a pretty fun little short story by Isaac Asimov "The Last Question" that got me thinking about a philosophical aspect of gravity cosmology.

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html?

In that story mankind confronts the limits of entropy, it has only stars to use as fuel and stars have their own fuel. The sun's fuel will be used up, then the other stars, then all the stars. The gas tank starts on full and ends on empty. So if we apply the model to the plume on Enceladus, even if it's not in our lifetimes, that moon had better run out of water and the plume had better go away someday. Of course, if it's electric it doesn't have to stop until this solar system is no longer a discharge element in the galactic circuit, or this galaxy in the universal circuit.

I can just see it, thousands of years from now, the last gravity theorist will admit they're wrong as the plume continues to exist even after all the water would be gone if Enceladus was merely a thin shell around a globe of water to begin with.
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No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby Ronanov » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:00 am

The 'Geysers' on Enceladus now not coming form hidden ocean, but maybe sublimated ice form 'tidal friction':

http://www.physorg.com/news165068514.html

A step in the right direction, just a leap of imagination needed in the sublimation process!
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Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby nick c » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:12 pm

hi Romanov,

A step in the right direction, just a leap of imagination needed in the sublimation process!
I don't see it as a step in the right direction.
They are just searching for an alternate mechanical explanation for what is clearly an electrical phenomenon, obviously they have not been reading the TPOD's or they would have had a hint, as to where to look for the answer:
[url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/070316enceladusplumes.htm]Enceladus Plumes Explained[/url2]?

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Re: No Geysers on Enceladus

Unread postby mharratsc » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:11 pm

K I have a question...

We've used telescopes to see energetic polar jets spewing particles way out in these far-away galaxies... have we ever pointed similar telescopes with equal resolution to see if the 'jets/geysers/volcanoes' on these moons are likewise energized?

Just wondering... o.O

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Water geysers on Saturn moon

Unread postby tholden » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:09 am

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Re: Water geysers on Saturn moon

Unread postby MGmirkin » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Any why must water in the "geysers" be evidence of a liquid ocean?

The powerful plumes, which contain water vapor, sodium and organic chemicals such as carbon dioxide, look a bit like the Old Faithful geyser in Yellowstone National Park. They have intrigued scientists because they suggest that a store of liquid water may be present beneath the moon's crust to give rise to the water vapor in the plumes.


The Moon and Mercury both seem to produce their water locally at the surface or in the tenuous atmosphere. Why not Enceladus? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Said as much in the comments.

(Surface Sputtering Confirmed as Source of Moon Water.)
http://my.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/surfac ... moon-water

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Re: Water geysers on Saturn moon

Unread postby mharratsc » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:54 pm

I tried to post something on there as well, about how it is identical to what is happening on Mercury (and comets, etc etc) but Space.com was being weird about letting me build an account... not sure if it let me get that posted. :\


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Re: Water geysers on Saturn moon

Unread postby mharratsc » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:24 pm

You know- i was thinking about how this article was written glancing back through here, and it occured to mei just how big a bunch of hypocrites that NASA and the Mainstream are!

They give EU proponents a bunch of flak because we observe how stuff happening around us in the Universe looks like stuff observed in lab plasma experiments, but they go on to opine that the jets of Enceladus look like Ol' Faithful and embark on a completely baseless, conjectural discourse about how it must be a geyser (because it looks like one) and create a fictitious, never-before-observed phenomenon of cryo-geysers to explain it. -P

Sometimes those guys really torque my jaw. >.<

Speaking of Ol' Faithful- has anyone ever considered that the regularity of a geyser's eruptions might be an electrically-capacitive event, vs. a phenomenon that is strictly one of thermal regularity and geological dimensions?

Just wondering...

Mike H.
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Re: Water geysers on Saturn moon

Unread postby jjohnson » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:38 pm

MH - I hadn't thought of that concerning geysers like Old Faithful, but if it's operative at that scale it could also be part of the driver for volcanism generally. Volcanism and geysers are not always as regular as Old Faithful, but there are some patterns with regularity, to a degree. The seismic activity along our Cascades out here has sort of a rhythm (and we're sort of due for another eruption, I read, but it's very indefinite). Interesting thoughts!

I am wondering how they concluded that there was water vapor in the plume. I don't particularly dispute it, but if what is ejected were strongly ionized, it wouldn't be water vapor (gas molecules) it would be a plasma. On the other hand, it could be a weakly ionized plasma which is able to drag or induce molecular water with it. Or it may actually cool down enough to recombine into the gaseous molecular state some distance above the surface. Who knows? NASA is very parsimonious in revealing either raw data or what specifically they measured to come up with these conclusions. "Thou shalt brook neither argument nor discussion about it." It might have been the signature of OH radicals, again, which they call water because those combine to form water.

The Encaladus's geyser-like plume has a completely different morphology from the Io volcanic plumes, which Peratt identified as identical with a plasma focus phenomenon. Anyone want to venture why? Why do NASA call it a "geyser"? Because it has liquid in it? Do the drops freeze on Cassini's little windshield? Do the little microphones inside pick up the impact sounds of ice crystals hitting the shell or something? (You can hear cirrus clouds making a continuous, soft white noise on an aircraft windshield when you bomb through them at 3/4 the speed of sound - personal observation). What kind of water signature are they getting? Are the plumes visible in UV or optical or IR bands when you are not looking at them when they are back-lit by the Sun? NASA SEND HELP PLEASE STOP
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Cassini Sends Back Images of Enceladus as Winter Nears

Unread postby MattEU » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:47 am

NASA's Cassini spacecraft has sailed seamlessly through the Nov. 21 flyby of Saturn's moon Enceladus and started transmitting uncalibrated temperature data and images of the rippling terrain. These data and images will be processed and analyzed in the coming weeks. They will help scientists create the most-detailed-yet mosaic image of the southern part of the moon's Saturn-facing hemisphere and a contiguous thermal map of one of the intriguing "tiger stripe" features, with the highest resolution to date.

"These first raw images are spectacular, and paint an even more fascinating picture of Enceladus," said Bob Pappalardo, Cassini project scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "The Cassini teams will be delving into the data to better understand the workings of this bizarre, active moon."

Scientists are particularly interested in the tiger stripes, which are fissures in the south polar region, because they spew jets of water vapor and other particles hundreds of kilometers, or miles, from the surface. This flyby was scientists' last peek at the tiger stripes before the south pole fades into the darkness of winter for several years. The thermal imaging work focused on the tiger stripe known as Baghdad Sulcus.

The Nov. 21 encounter, which is sometimes called "E8" because it is the eighth targeted flyby of Enceladus, brought Cassini to within about 1,600 kilometers (1,000 miles) of the moon's surface, at around 82 degrees south latitude. Cassini is now cruising toward Rhea, another one of Saturn's moons,


Raw satellite images of "Cassini Sends Back Images of Enceladus as Winter Nears"
What is the origin or formation of our planets amazing amount of sand? Water erosion and weathering? Extraterrestrial? EU geology? Other?
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