Solar System and Planet Formation

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

Getting closer...

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.asr.2003.06.034

Abstract

The detail analysis of the aerological data from Vostok station (Antarctica) for 1978–1992 made it possible to find the dramatic changes of the troposphere temperature influenced by strong fluctuations of the interplanetary electric field ESW. The warming is observed at ground level and cooling at h>10 km if the electric field of dawn–dusk direction is enhanced (when interplanetary magnetic field ?BZ<0>10 km) is observed if the dawn–dusk electric field decreases (when ?BZ>0). There is a linear relationship between the value of ?ESW and ground temperature at Vostok station: the larger is leap in the ESW the stronger is temperature deviation. The effect reaches maximum within one day and is damped equally quickly. The temperature deviations occur not only while passing the front of the interplanetary shocks but while crossing the layers of interaction between the quasi-stationary slow and fast solar wind fluxes those are not accompanied by the cosmic ray variations at all. The appropriate response to the ESW changes is observed in tropospheric pressure and wind as well. It is suggested that the interplanetary electric field influences the katabatic system of atmospheric circulation, typical of the ice dome in winter Antarctic.

Closer indeed. Interesting. But electricity & electric fields couldn't possibly "do things" on Earth! *Harrumph!*

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

Anyway, you are going to have to squint your eyes for this
one... A real SWAG on my part... but the first thing I saw when
I saw the "void" was this:

A Polar Jet. Do you see the vortices? Find a site with an
animated gif and it is like watching a prop turn.

Anyone got a link for the animation? I'd be interested to see it...

~Michael Gm.

[bboyer]

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: lite-brite - Animation Link?...
OP "davesmith_au"

Anyway, you are going to have to squint your eyes for this
one... A real SWAG on my part... but the first thing I saw when
I saw the "void" was this:

A Polar Jet. Do you see the vortices? Find a site with an
animated gif and it is like watching a prop turn.

Anyone got a link for the animation? I'd be interested to see it...

Ditto for me, lite-brite, got a link for the 'prop' animation? I've been all over the MPE site and can't find what you speak of.
Cheers, Dave Smith.
_________________
PlasmaResources.com
"If you are not prepared to think outside the square, you will always be confined within it..." Dave Smith.

[bboyer]

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "gzeitlin"

I'm new to the "electric sky" ideas...

Can someone tell me if the electric sky model includes anything on planetary formation? I've been searching on this and have not found anything.

[bboyer]

NB: Pg. 2 of the old forum posts were not available when I downloaded the cached files.

Recovery continues with pg. 3 of the posts

- arc-us

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Mo"

Mo, I didn't realize that the initial state would be a simple as that. However, the Big Bang is simple too. In fact, except for the geometry -- BB is a point source and your current is a line -- this is just as much a universe by fiat.

Is that, then, the position of the Electric Universe people? Is that what it all boils down to?

I'd think that the EU people would faint ! However Perrat forms
a galaxy through a Birkland plasma current pair, which has cross-
sectional width about the same as the width of a galaxy here.

I can see no reason that the first galaxy formed in this way.

Mo

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Age, beginning, end? Maybe, maybe not...
OP "mgmirkin"

If the universe is constantly renewing itself

A big "if" with no scientific evidence supporting it. EU theory is predicated on the notion that the processes that form the galaxies are the same as the processes that can be observed in the laboratory. "Constant renewal" is equivalent to "perpetual motion", which has most definitely not been observed in the lab; if the laws of conservation that we observe on Earth hold in the heavens, then an electrically-driven universe will, eventually, wind down.

Given the scales involved, that would surely be a long, long time from now; and who knows what it is that gave the universe the initial voltages to set the whole thing running; but "constant renewal" is, given everything we know about the universe to date, just as much metaphysical pseudoscience as when cosmologists ask what happened before the Big Bang.

hmm, might have mis-stated slightly. I seem to recall that Arp had a notion of either constant renewal or constant recycling. I'd probably lean toward the latter. Perhaps renewal is the wrong word. Anyway, realize I wasn't being completely rigorous, just very broadly paraphrasing (perhaps with not quite the correct shade of meaning; apologies).

Just saying that taking a rather different tact might come out with rather different results, and it may be more difficult to know beginning from end, or whether there was either, both or none.

Cheers,
~Michael Gm.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "gzeitlin"

Folks, I've been a little slow to reply because 1) I was advised early on that cosmological issues such as the one under discussion are off topic (i.e., not Planetary Science), though I would want to address this in the appropriate topic sometime, and 2) my collaborator/friend, whose response to the final images in the planetary formation article I was waiting for, found my e-mail in his spam box and so is just now getting to it.

I'll be back. Meanwhile, I am receiving notifications and am reading the posts.

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: "Largest" Planet discovered, seems to support EU-t Reply with quote
OP "FS3"

This finding from an international team of astronomers, using a network of automated telescopes called the Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey, seems to support lots of what Plasma-based theories have been stating rather than what "grawitty-only" has been promising to everyone.

From SpaceCom: (emphasis added)

...The largest planet ever discovered is also one of the strangest and theoretically should not even exist, scientists say.

Dubbed TrES-4, the planet is about 1.7 times the size of Jupiter and belongs to a small subclass of "puffy" planets that have extremely low densities. The finding will be detailed in an upcoming issue of Astrophysical Journal.

"Its mean density is only about 0.2 grams per cubic centimeter, or about the density of balsa wood," said study leader Georgi Mandushev of the Lowell Observatory in Arizona. "And because of the planet's relatively weak pull on its upper atmosphere, some of the atmosphere probably escapes in a comet-like tail."

The planet's large mass-to-density ratio makes it an anomaly among known exoplanets, and its existence cannot be explained by current models....

"Cannot be explained by current models"? LOL! How's about electricity?

FS3

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Ion01"

So, the existance of TrES-4 cannot be explained by current models but I am guessing that they would say that doesn't mean that their current models are wrong.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

The mean density calculation is based on the same familiar gravity-only premises.
Therefore, whatever can be measured about the planet's orbit makes it a relative anomaly. If there are more forces at work than gravity, there is no way to make absolute statements about it's density.

Well, who cares if it cannot exist anyway ;-D

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Krackonis"

From http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/PKE/Results2_e.html

Forces and potential energy inside the void
A complex plasma is, under certain conditions, expected to build up a regular 3-D structure, a 'plasma crystal', that fills the whole volume of the plasma in microgravity. But most experiments with PKE-Nefedov aboard the ISS showed an inhomogeneous filling of the plasma discharge space. The micro-particles are located around a particle-free zone in the center, the so-called 'void'.

Often the void reaches a size half of the diameter of the whole discharge. This unexpected feature that prevents large undisturbed plasma crystals needs further investigation, also to learn more about the forces inside the plasma.

In one dedicated experiment the plasma crystal was disturbed by a gas puff and particles were placed inside the void where they were expelled immediately. (See image on the right side.) From 198 trajectories (marked in the image) we can derive the effective potential acting on the particles inside the void.

See the original data movie: AVI (4.4 MB).

First observation: After the puff the void swings back and forth. But if we take into account this motion we get distorted trajectories! The particles move in the reference frame of the plasma chamber. This means the feature that causes the void is independent from the particle cloud. It acts with reference to the plasma chamber.

Fascinating stuff, indeed.

"First observation: After the puff the void swings back and forth. But if we take into account this motion we get distorted trajectories! The particles move in the reference frame of the plasma chamber. This means the feature that causes the void is independent from the particle cloud. It acts with reference to the plasma chamber."

So, correct me if I am wrong, but what reference is it using then? The chambers or an etheric reference? I am not big on ethergasms(tm) , I'm on the fence with regard to it, but I do try and keep the negative square forces open to interpretation
_________________
Neil Thompson

Krackonis

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."
- Delenn

Last edited by Krackonis on Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Krackonis"

Thanks, biknewb. The article is just what I wanted. It'll take me a day or so to absorb it, as I'm multitasking...

Later I'll mention the reason for my interest.

As to surprises, well, I'm about half through Donald Scott's book so I'm having an introduction. Overall I take the Electric Sky model as the most promising of all, and I've entertained several alternative ones. They are all radical, as is E.S., but E.S. at the same time requires the least stretch, once one has let go of the standard mainstream myths (big bang, redshifts, age of universe, etc.).

Speaking of age of universe, well, is that something that can be spoken of in the E.S. model?

I'm also quite certain that E.S. would disagree with the conventional ideas of the life cycle of stars and their position on the H-R diagram. Correct?

There is a site that talks about using the fibonacci sequence to calculate the age of the observable universe using the EU model. It's fairly easy as plasma, life, plants, lightning etc all follow this sequence...

http://www.saturniancosmology.org/age.php

I hope this helps bring some insight. If not, just throw it against a wall or something... ;P
_________________
Neil Thompson

Krackonis

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."
- Delenn

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

So, correct me if I am wrong, but what reference is it using then? The chambers or an etheric reference? I am not big on ethergasms(tm) , I'm on the fence with regard to it, but I do try and keep the negative square forces open to interpretation

My guess is that the chamber itself or equipment next to it has this effect upon the charged particles. They are charged with respect to the containing chamber. If this is the case, it would be more understandable when the particles would be in the middle and the void around it. But hey this is plasma... you can expect anything to happen.
In the first part of the movie I see two "layers" or maybe it is a 3D shape.
Fascinating...

[bboyer]

That's all the posts I found for recovery.

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