Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

[starbiter]

No basalt vents? ... careful there... Craters of the Moon displays lots of basalt vents but neither the Columbia River plateau nor the Yellowstone caldera display these, yet clearly the basalt flowed from vents... The basalt near Grand Junction is similar in formation to the typical columnar-vessicular flows we see in the Northwest and other parts of the world, eg Antarctica, or the Deccan province in India. The flow and cooling characteristics are classical. Attributing their formation to enhanced aurorae or interplanetary megalightning is exotic to an extreme. Oops, I forgot to check if my objections were still welcome around here

Hello Webo: I acknowledged You in my NPA paper. Your objections are priceless. Please don't stop objecting.

It's true, geologists know where the lava for Grand Mesa came from. It came from a far away mystery location. The whole area of the lava flow was the height of todays Grand Mesa. Then all of the valleys eroded away.


http://ghostdepot.com/rg/library/survey ... survey.htm

[...]

A short distance from the station at Delta the railroad crosses Uncompahgre River and then runs along the bank of Gunnison River which the traveler has not seen since he left Black Canyon. Here the Grand Mesa is in full view to the north (right). All the lower slopes of this mesa are composed of the Mancos shale, which is so soft that it generally forms valleys wherever it is exposed, but the shale in the mesa is protected by overlying sandstone that is capped by a thick sheet of solidified lava (basalt). When this lava was poured out the present lowlands had not been cut, and the whole surface stood at the same level as that of the top of Grand Mesa. The volcano or volcanic vent from which this great flow was ejected has not been definitely located, but it may have been at a considerable distance, for this sheet is probably a part of the great lava flow that covered much of this general region, a flow whose remnants can still be seen on Grand Mesa and Battlement Mesa, to the north, on the Flattops, north of Glenwood Springs, and on other high mesas. If these remnants are not a part of a single flow they are probably parts of independent flows that occurred at about the same time. As the West Elk Mountains, east of Somerset, were a center of great volcanic activity at about this time the lava may have originated there. The striking thing about these lava flows is the enormous amount of erosion that has taken place since they occurred. The date of the flow can be fixed only as some time in the Tertiary period, but it was long enough ago to permit the removal from the valleys of rocks at least a mile in thickness.

me again,

So according to this, a mile of rocks needs to have eroded away to form the valleys between the continuous basalt flow from 30 miles away.


The process occurred 30,000,000 years ago according to the report below.

http://grandjunctiongeology.wikispaces.com/Grand+Mesa
[...]

The Grand Mesa
The Grand Mesa is the largest mesa in the world. It has an area of around 2,167
square miles and its highest point is Crater Peak which is around 11,327
feet above sea level. The Mesa also has around 300 lakes. It is generally
thought to have once been a volcano but that is a common misconception.
The mesa is the result of a volcanic vent that oozed lava and formed a hard
basalt layer on its top. The volcanic layer is 30 million years old and was created
back when the Modern Rockies where formed. The lowest layers are yellow and
gray Mancos Shale from the early Cretaceous. The Mesa Verde Group that forms
a cliff about halfway up the side of the mesa, and the top layer rests on the
Tertiary shale and sandstone known as the Green River and Wasatch Formations.

me again,
Or maybe it was plasma that melted the the basalt in situ.

michael

[webolife]

The standard model suffers from too much time on its hands. To erode all that cooled solid basalt flow must have taken epochs of slow erosive time by the action of slow [or fast] moving streams such as we see around us today. "The present is the key to the past." HOWEVER, if we remove the alleged impossible-to-observe long time periods from the picture: the basalt is still quite warm, the action of flood stage or super flood waters flowing over the fresh lava produces explosive steam blasting of the area, leaving only the most-cooled/most-dense/most-resistant lava patches atop catastrophically eroded mesas. Or maybe it was plasma from a close encounter with Venus that melted flat layers atop sand dunes into columnar basalt leaving distinct discomfirmity between the adjacent layers of basalt and sand.

[starbiter]

The standard model suffers from too much time on its hands. To erode all that cooled solid basalt flow must have taken epochs of slow erosive time by the action of slow [or fast] moving streams such as we see around us today. "The present is the key to the past." HOWEVER, if we remove the alleged impossible-to-observe long time periods from the picture: the basalt is still quite warm, the action of flood stage or super flood waters flowing over the fresh lava produces explosive steam blasting of the area, leaving only the most-cooled/most-dense/most-resistant lava patches atop catastrophically eroded mesas. Or maybe it was plasma from a close encounter with Venus that melted flat layers atop sand dunes into columnar basalt leaving distinct discomfirmity between the adjacent layers of basalt and sand.

Hello Webo: I would like to continue our conversation concerning basalt vents. Where do You propose to place the vents? How did the basalt flow to the Grand Mesa? You objected to my lack of vents comment.


Your description of exploding basalt doesn't seem to agree with what we see from basalt today. When basalt is extruded directly into the ocean it doesn't explode. It accumulates as pillow basalt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdIUuUY0L9c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsJn8izcKtg

My computer doesn't seem to be harmed from the links.

The link below shows very hot lava entering the water. I see accumulation, not explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scGvM_VoPwk

The Native Americans refer to the creation of the holes in the Grand Mesa. When the snows melt in Summer the holes fill up with water.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39 ... 14&vpsrc=6

They claim an angry Thunderbird dropped pieces of a large serpent into the basalt.

http://www.summitpost.org/legend-of-the ... rds/324709

[...]

The Ute Indians local to the area believed that great Thunderbirds ruled the skies and lived atop the Grand Mesa. One day the great birds attacked the Ute village and carried children to their nest on the Mesa’s edge. The fiercest warrior disguised himself as a tree and climbed the Mesa to the nest. He discovering that the children had been eaten. In vengeance the warrior threw the Thunderbird eggs over the Mesa's edge to the valley below.





The Thunderbirds returned to find an empty nest. They looked down to find that their offspring had been swallowed by a giant serpent (I think the serpent is meant to represent the Colorado River) in the valley. The great birds screeched down and clinching the giant serpent in their huge talons and lifted it high over the Grand Mesa. In a raging storm the birds ripped the serpent hurling electrified pieces to the forest below, creating huge scars on the Mesa's previously smooth flat top. The storm raged and the gouges were filled with sorrowful tears from loss of their offspring, thus forming the many lakes of the Grand Mesa.


me again,

They dropped pieces of "electrified" serpent.


michael

[starbiter]

One more point Webo. You said,
[...]
Or maybe it was plasma from a close encounter with Venus that melted flat layers atop sand dunes into columnar basalt leaving distinct discomfirmity between the adjacent layers of basalt and sand.

me again,
I do enjoy this sentence. I'm considering having it tattooed on my forehead. One small point. The melting caused the mountains to melt. Melt like wax. It wasn't melting "flat layers". The flat layers are the result of the melting. There were ridges prior to the melting. Because of this we see flow patterns today. The molten basalt ran down the side of the ridges forming a puddle of molten rock. This is misconstrued as flow from a vent today.

Bluebell Knoll in the map below would have been the top of the ridge. Zoom out for perspective please.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=38 ... 15&vpsrc=6

The melting was not complete.

In some cases the basalt sits atop granite, not sand. Of course the granite started out as sediment in the dune model.

michael

[webolife]

The Columbia River basalt plateau is hundreds of thousands of square miles of mostly flat lying basalt flows upon flat lying basalt flows upon more flat lying basalt flows. Between many but not all of these flows are found comformably situated clays, gravels, sand[stone], diatomaceous earth, and other [waterborne] sediments, some of which can be observed to have partially mixed [for a few inches] with the underlying basalt. The tops of the basalt flows are vesicular grading to columnar in the lower part, making it easy from almost any distance to discern between separate flows [although a novice might incorrectly see the vesicular and columnar sections as separate layers]. Some of these flows can be traced for hundreds of miles, indicating the extremely low viscosity of the lava. While eroded buttes are left behind as ridgy looking formations in some places, this is not the general case. In several locations it can be seen that the lava flowed into bodies of water because of the presence of very classic pillow basalt [Ryegrass hill just west of Vantage is the best exposure I've seen]; the Blue Lake Rhino mold is also encased in pillow lava, and sits atop a clay layer which crumbles in your hands. A basalt flow pouring into a water body forms pillow basalt. But my scenario was water flooding over already [but not fully] cooling basalt lava, which had already begun to joint but was still 300+ degrees hot. As the water flowed into these joints it encountered the high heats and steamblasted away the basalt leaving exposed vertical columnar cliff faces, and pinnacles of columnar lava depending on the flow peculiarities of the flood currents in a particular locale. This clearly explains the coulees, but also explains the "pothole" formations, which are quite a stretttttch of the imagination to envision by cavitation if you view them close up. The cavitation process is way slower than what the observations suggest, eg. many potholes are wider at their bases than at their tops, with bases exposing sides of columnar basalt overlain and overarched by vesicular basalt [this is a remarkable finding IMO, because vesicular rock weathers and erodes much more rapidly than more dense columnar, the opposite of the observed potholes]. This contrasts with the standard local geology, which while allowing for the catastrophic erosion of the coulees, still envisions the potholes as resulting from millenia of cavitation of cooled basalt, ten-millions of years of time assumed. As for vents, the flows of basalt are so vast, and the repeated layers to such a depth as to make it nigh unto impossible to locate the areas where the basalt must have vented up from below, but they are not entirely unknown. A quick search gave me this website:
http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/vwdocs/v ... a/crb.html

[starbiter]

No basalt vents? ... careful there... Craters of the Moon displays lots of basalt vents but neither the Columbia River plateau nor the Yellowstone caldera display these, yet clearly the basalt flowed from vents... The basalt near Grand Junction is similar in formation to the typical columnar-vessicular flows we see in the Northwest and other parts of the world, eg Antarctica, or the Deccan province in India. The flow and cooling characteristics are classical. Attributing their formation to enhanced aurorae or interplanetary megalightning is exotic to an extreme. Oops, I forgot to check if my objections were still welcome around here

Hello Webo: In the post above You challenged me concerning the basalt near Grand Junction. That would be the Grand Mesa, the largest mesa in the world. I'd like to finish discussing the GM before going on to Oregon. I do want to discuss Oregon in the future. In the above post You claim the Grand Mesa is classical. Where did the basalt come from? How did it get to the 10,800 ft. structure?

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=38 ... 10&vpsrc=6

The geology reports would have us believe the lave flowed horizontally [slightly down hill] from where it says Gunnison National Forrest in the Map above. That would require the the valley in between Gunnison National Forrest and Crag Crest to erode. If You look East up the valley you'll see a limited drainage for a proposed flood. And prior to the flood the area would need to be covered with 250 ft. plus of basalt. And the mile deep valley was full of rocks according to the report. For the limited drainage available that's a lot of erosion.

Your exploding basalt argument seems like a stretch. This process is never witnessed in nature as far as i know. If a thunderstorm passes over a cooling lava field is there an explosion? Has there ever been an explosion when a wave splashed on cooling basalt? Anything on Youtube?

In your statement above You claim "Attributing their formation to enhanced aurorae or interplanetary megalightning is exotic to an extreme." Really. This is the Thunderbolts Forum. It's based on myth, legend, and plasma physics. Because You haven't read Worlds in Collision You will not get the myth and legend stuff. This seems like a given. The other side of this would be Wal Thornhill, Dr Scott, Dr Peratt, Dr Ransom, Mel Atcheson, Dave Talbott, and many others who feel high energy plasma interactions with Earth were numerous. External electrical heat and pressure would have been available. It was witnessed and remembered around the world. If this information is in conflict with what You teach in high school science class it might be troubling. My lack of formal education greased the skids for me. I had very little to unlearn. Your burdened with a wonderful education.

Concerning legend, the Grand Mesa was formed while there was an electric serpent in the sky, according to the Utes.


michael


https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... 5&hl=en_US

[starbiter]

Does anyone know why the map below looks blue/turquoise? This color seems quite common. I think the color is the remnant of a thunderbolt.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35 ... 10&vpsrc=6

There is a gold mine on the North edge of the blue area of the map. Gold mines seem to be associated with electrical calderas.


There are large deep formations of basalt surrounding the bluish area.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=36 ... 14&vpsrc=6

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... h&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... m&hl=en_US

Just to the West is the image below.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=36 ... 17&vpsrc=6

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... x&hl=en_US

Just to the NW is Lava Butte. Lava Butte is the eastern edge of the Frenchmen Mountain group. The proximity of Lave Butte to the blue area might be a factor in the basalt production.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=36 ... 15&vpsrc=6

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... x&hl=en_US


https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-GyNP ... 5&hl=en_US

The ridges of the Frenchmen formation show less basalt as the distance to the blue areas increases.

The areas that look blue in the Google/NASA maps don't look blue in the field. Is there an explanation for this?

michael

[larryduane100]

Michael- Check out
http://www.consplan.com/images/figures29.pdf

Hope this helps.
Larry White

[webolife]

Starbiter,
"Exploding basalt"?? I said steamblasting was the process. I have been unable to locate the video of the destruction of Syrtlingur that I'd like you to watch, perhaps someone with better search skills than I could find it? ... but this will have to do for starters:

Britannica's edited footage of the Surtsey eruptions of the early to mid 60s:
http://www.theworldwonders.com/europe/surtsey.html

I'm interested in their reference to the layer of basalt capping the island that prevented Surtsey from being destroyed by the wave action in the same way its younger siblings were. The narrator understates the wave action as "erosion", whereas a look at good video footage of the process clearly shows a catastrophic process of destruction through steamblasting.

The reform of science has never been aided, only deterred, by appeal to authority, Michael.

[starbiter]

Michael- Check out
http://www.consplan.com/images/figures29.pdf

Hope this helps.
Larry White

Thanks Larry: I looked through the link. It doesn't seem to help concerning the blue color in Google map satellite images. Maybe i missed something.

michael

[starbiter]

Starbiter,
"Exploding basalt"?? I said steamblasting was the process. I have been unable to locate the video of the destruction of Syrtlingur that I'd like you to watch, perhaps someone with better search skills than I could find it? ... but this will have to do for starters:

Britannica's edited footage of the Surtsey eruptions of the early to mid 60s:
http://www.theworldwonders.com/europe/surtsey.html

I'm interested in their reference to the layer of basalt capping the island that prevented Surtsey from being destroyed by the wave action in the same way its younger siblings were. The narrator understates the wave action as "erosion", whereas a look at good video footage of the process clearly shows a catastrophic process of destruction through steamblasting.

The reform of science has never been aided, only deterred, by appeal to authority, Michael.

The process of "steamblasting" hundreds of square miles of basalt 250 ft thick or more sounds explosive to me. Do You propose the "steamblasting" was not explosive? Would the basalt not have exploded in the process you propose. Your, it wasn't exploding basalt, complaint seems bazaar.

I watched the video You linked. With all that flowing, cooling basalt next to the ocean, i expected to see the steamblasting You propose. I didn't see any "steamblasting".

The basalt flow you propose for the Grand Mesa would produce a horizontal layer of basalt sloping to the NW. Then instead of protecting the formation from eroding like the basalt on Surtsey Island [surrounded by water by the way], the Grand Mesa basalt was "steamblasted" away. Then an area full of rock had to be eroded to the depth of a mile to create the mile deep valley we find today. All this erosion in an area with a gentle slope, and limited drainage.

Webo said,
[...]
The flow and cooling characteristics are classical. Attributing their formation to enhanced aurorae or interplanetary megalightning is exotic to an extreme.

me again,
You claim my basalt proposal is "exotic to an extreme". When i supply You with a list of humans who imply that this isn't "exotic to an extreme" You accuse me of "appealing to authority". If You can find one breathing human on planet Earth who agrees with You on "steamblasting" of basalt, i give you permission to refer to them. I will not accuse You of "appealing to authority".

michael

[webolife]

Michael, our dialogue would go better if you didn't keep putting words in my mouth! I've tried to be very careful about representing your statements accurately [while disagreeing with them!] "Explosive" is not a bad word, I just objected to you not originally addressing my steamblasting process. Now that you have, I plead that the Brittanica Surtsey video is too badly edited to show what I want you to see... sorry about that -- will still keep looking for a better bit of footage. If you don't like the idea of flooding catastrophically carving out not fully lithified strata which are interbedded sedimentary and volcanic, leaving only mesa remnants topped by more resistant basalt, it is only because you are deeply invested in your plasma-melted rock scenario, for which I both respect you and respectfully disagree with you. Yes, I do think it is exotic and without any current world [double entendre intended] evidence, but that makes it I'm sure all the more interesting for us all to speculate about. It's fine to give credit to others who have influenced one's view, but an appeal to the "mob" to shore up one's own opinion is just like the proverbial "scientific consensus" which does not serve the advancement of science. I was influenced by Dr. V, first through Donald Patton, back as far as the late 70s, and his ideas helped to shape my own catastrophic mindset. I think Earth's geologic history has been heavily affected by astronomical phenomena, and look to mega-electric discharge phenomena as potential [pun also intended] answers to many questions I've had over the years. But I will not be an easy sell in the face of lacking observational evidence nor verifiable mechanism, regardless of how many names you throw at me. I value the work of and my dialogues with Ralph Sansbury, who directed me toward Wal Thornhill, who directed me toward this site, and I value the contributions of all who post here, though I disagree with and/or try to challenge most of them in order to advance [our] mutual cause toward sound scientific understanding. I'm not into playing devil's advocate -- I am into "robust", and will ask questions and expose weaknesses as long as I am here. After all, isn't that why you acknowledged me in your paper?
Your friend,
Webo

[Lloyd]

* Web, same here.
* By the way, Syrtlingur seems to be the same as Little Surtsey. Is Surtsey the same? These are about the formation, but I don't know if they discuss destruction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42H2znxGyhg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sRw_e5RA34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MmX_i7S9u4
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4o0go ... on-of_tech

[seasmith]

starbiter » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:33 am

Does anyone know why the map below looks blue/turquoise? This color seems quite common. I think the color is the remnant of a thunderbolt.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35 ... 10&vpsrc=6

Lake Mohave was basically one big mine tailings pit, before the west coast moguls made a reservoir and covered the old mines with water.
Besides gold, there's a lot of copper in them thar hills, so the blue-green is probably from relatively fresh oxides.
Like an old funky penny, when they were actually made of copper.

Nevada Bureau of Mines has a large trove of free maps showing mines, deposits, terrains, and the many crustal fractures & outcrops, making the area so rich in minerals.


http://www.nbmg.unr.edu/dox/b62/index.pdf

[starbiter]

Hello Seasmith: I've been to the area under discussion many times. There is a gold mine. It's easy to see the tailings. The blue areas under discussion are definitely not tailings. But thanks for trying to help.

michael