Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:54 pm

Nice diagram, Lloyd.
What you see in the image is first of all "schematic" not actually what a cross-sectional slice would look like.
That being said however the image shows what are referred to as facies deposits, ie deposits of different character found at horizontally "equivalent" levels. Interdepositional variety suggests strongly the concurrence of more than one process, deposition/compaction/cementation [sandstone]and metamorphism [shale] for instance, as well as the obvious shoreline feature. Notice also the occurrence of bedrock interposed with the marine shale. What this tells me, among other things, is that time is not a main determiner of rock formation... in this chart, the diagrammers are suggesting, based strictly on uniformitarianism, no actual dating process, that very similar formations occurred continuously over a period of tens of millions of years... this despite the clear depiction of nearly the same level of metamorphosis, or lack thereof, appearing at any/no particular level. If these processes were time-dependent, one would expect a greater level of metamorphosis [eg more shale,less sandstone] the further down you look in the record. Instead we find pretty much the same degree of metamorphosis [heating/pressure, recrystalization] regardless of which level we pick. Although this chart depicts just one small region, it is not atypical of other geologic schematics. Some areas such as the North Cascades region in Washington are certainly more complex and difficult to interpret, but the same kinds of concurrence and interplay of processes can be represented. Duning is a transport and depositional process... it would be difficult by any interpretation to explain the complex folding, metamorphism, vulcanism and intrusion we see in mountain ranges in terms of duning as a primary process.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:45 pm

Hallo Webo: As you can probably guess, i disagree with your last sentence. The folding model seems to have the difficult to defend position. The Namib Dunes are studied as a 3200 square mile dune field. I stumbled on the Namib by searching for dune experts. The fact that the pattern of the formation is the result of a duning process is not questioned. Underlying the dunes are 1500 foot mountains. They refer to these mountains as fossil dunes. If you can devise a folding model to explain them your a better person than i.


Now lets deal with volcanism.



This photo is around Kingman AZ. When i asked the BLM geologist for the story of the formation, he said the basement rock is 1.8 billion years old. The gray rock is airborne sand and volcanic rock sediment. The top section is Basalt. The Basalt flowed to the top of the formation from about a hundred miles away. The area surrounding the formation without Basalt eroded away. When i asked for the source of the basalt he claimed it was a volcano. I requested directions to the volcano. He said there was a problem. The volcano had eroded away. Nothing left. But he was certain there was a volcano because of the Basalt. Same thing in Southern CO. Basalt with missing eroded away volcanoes.

I've seen basalt flows in Central Oregon, and outside of Flagstaff AZ and they look nothing like the Basalt on the top of this mountain. The basalt being liquid flows down into valleys and tries to fill them.

They [geologists] try to explain the Basalt Mountains of Oregon as coming out like toothpaste to form 1500 foot mountains, that look just like dunes with slip faces. This tooth paste process has not been witnessed recently.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=p&z=11

Also here where the Columbia River cuts through the large mountain.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=p&z=11

I hope if i'm deluding myself you can help me as soon as possible. This is costing me a fortune in money and time.

Help me, michael
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby mharratsc » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:31 pm

*** Layman Alert! ***

So fill me in on something here... what geological process would park a bunch of new dunes on top of a bunch of old dunes? Wind? Water?

Ok, forgive me at this point- I am NOT a geologist. I *am* an EU enthusiast. I am going to put forth something that I'm sure is outlandish by geological standards, but not so much via EU thought:

Might it be possible that ALL the dunes in that location, both new and fossilized, have been deposited grain by tiny grain by electrical deposition at the location of a sustained telluric current point? Has anyone ever wandered around out there checking out the mean electric field readings around those dunes and mountains?

Just trying to think outside the box! :) I've even come up with something once or twice that way! :lol:


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water gaps

Unread postby MattEU » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:36 pm

starbiter wrote:
They [geologists] try to explain the Basalt Mountains of Oregon as coming out like toothpaste to form 1500 foot mountains, that look just like dunes with slip faces. This tooth paste process has not been witnessed recently.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=p&z=11

Also here where the Columbia River cuts through the large mountain.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=p&z=11



Nice map of water gaps, not sure if water gaps help anyone with their side of the discussion or are a Red Herring. Amazing things, water gaps are supposedly rivers that existed before the mountains even started to rise from the ground. So they had to be constantly flowing for millions of years. Which with the constantly and very changing climate of Earth is a bit hard to believe.

Although I suspect that most EU people will have different ideas and I think of them as being EDM'd away or something like that. If they were created by an EDM type event would this effect the processes you are talking about or what we see today?

Just about to post this and Mike H pops up :) Would this area have attracted the water gap creation because of its natural energy, perhaps a power point for Telluric Currents as Mike says?
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:56 pm

Hello Matt and Mike: There might be areas that are predisposed to deposition by duning. Opposites attract. This is over my pay grade. It does deserve attention by people smarter than i. On the other hand, from what i understand, if an area is dry and you have wind blown sand a dune will form. Hydrology is key to the duning model.

The water gap issue is problematic for all of the models except duning IMO.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:25 pm

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=p&z=11

If you follow the Potomac West from this map it will be hard to reconcile with folding, i think.

Google maps junkie, michael
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:38 pm

Nice map of water gaps, not sure if water gaps help anyone with their side of the discussion or are a Red Herring. Amazing things, water gaps are supposedly rivers that existed before the mountains even started to rise from the ground. So they had to be constantly flowing for millions of years. Which with the constantly and very changing climate of Earth is a bit hard to believe.


Gentlemen,

Even when glaciated, rivers are flowing.
Even when submerged, they are flowing.
[ Google Earth the deep offshore Mississippi River canyons under the Gulf of Mexico.]

Zoom out on the Potomac map from Georgia to New England
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=38.989303,-77.232513&spn=0.23643,0.614548&t=p&z=11

The Appalachians haven't been just politely folded. They've been smackjam tortured, for a very long time.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby allynh » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:28 pm

The Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountains on the planet.

Appalachian Mountains
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachians

What is fun, the highest peak, Mount Mitchell, is 6,684 ft. I'm living at about 6,400 ft on the edge of Santa Fe, and the land rises to 7,000 ft downtown, then it climbs into the foothills of the Sangre De Cristos. That's a 600 foot rise in just a few miles, yet Santa Fe seems flat as can be. The lowest part of New Mexico is about 4,000 ft.

I love Google Maps. I've been going nuts the past few weeks since this thread started looking at stuff.

For basalt that doesn't make sense, type in "La Bajada, NM" in Google maps.
La Bajada small.jpg

La Bajada, means "The Hill". That was the old dividing line between upper and lower New Mexico. The ridge that you see is a basalt cap ten feet thick on top of sand, and sandstone. The little peak you see by the orange "A" marker is the possible source for that part of the flow.

If you set your marker to sit on I25 and go to "street view" you can ride 400 feet from the base of the rise to the edge, then another 200 feet just to get beside the cone. If you look to the ridge, you can see the basalt. As you climb up the road cut you can see the layers of sandstone, changing in color, yellow, red, dark green. Yet, once again, when you are on top of "The Hill" it seems wide and flat, yet you have a 200 foot climb just to drive around the small cone.

If you zoom around the area, switching from "terrain view" to "satellite view" as needed you can see the various cones that flooded the area with basalt. The "street view" helps here and there but it doesn't capture the scale.

All of New Mexico is shaped with vast lava fields that don't make sense from the traditional view. Anywhere you drive in the Rio Grande Valley you will find basalt along the edge of the valley. Virtually every mesa has a basalt cap.

Now enter "Mount Taylor, New Mexico"
Mount Taylor a.jpg

Mount Taylor (New Mexico)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tayl ... _Mexico%29

Enter "El Malpais National Monument, NM" and it takes you a few miles south of Mount Taylor. This is a vast area of black lava. The local people remember when the lava flowed. There are dates of flows at:

Zuni-Bandera volcanic field
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuni-Bande ... anic_field

Remember I mentioned the Valles Caldera in an earlier post.
Valles Caldera a.jpg

Valles Caldera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Cal ... l_Preserve

Look at the picture of Mount Taylor above, and compare it to the Valles Caldera. That Caldera used to look like Mount Taylor before it blew.

Enter "Socorro, NM" and realize that there is another supervolcano waiting to pop right under the city. They have measured a mass that is causing uplift even now. The local PBS station had a great episode pointing out that it is due to pop in the next thousand years.

Socorro Magma Body
http://www.ees.nmt.edu/Geop/Museum_Post ... ology.html

Starbiter, if you need to wander through strange landscapes that don't really make sense check out:

Rio Grande rift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande_Rift

The Rio Grande Rift is ground zero for unzipping the continent. The next major plasma event that grows the Earth will split the continent here and we will go flat just like Africa did when it split along the Rift Valley, unzipping that continent.

The North American continent has a vast plateau that is over a mile high, then the mountains go up another mile or more.

South America has a plateau over two miles high, surrounded by mountains that go miles high.

Eurasia's plateau is three miles high surrounded by vast mountains.

Africa is flat as can be, with most of it under a mile. The few mountains are on the other side of the Rift Valley. When Africa flattened out, it would have made vast waves that would have flooded parts of the world.

When you look at places that might have been impacted by floods during the Saturn Event, consider the possibility that Earth grew 10% to 15%, wiping out the megafauna, and cracking/flattening Africa, causing vast tidal waves to sweep the planet. No water from outside would be needed to explain the damage, but then that's just me and the whacky Growing Earth Theory.

Did I mention that I love Google Maps.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Kapriel » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:50 pm

Sorry to be so late in replying.

Lloyd-
Good links, thanks.

Allyn- Same. Finally made it through some of the fluid mechanics links. I see what you mean, although I might point out that something might behave fluidly without being a fluid. Rock certainly does this. Each "state" of matter that does behave fluidly, does so under different conditions than the other states of matter, which I think is why they categorize them separately.

Somebody asked me about the type of carbonate I was referring to (was it Lloyd?). I believe the type was dolomite, which forms naturally today during wet-dry cycles in tidal environments such as lakes.
An excellent paper on how it forms is here:
http://funnel.sfsu.edu/courses/geol350/DVtime.pdf

Again, on Death Valley: Dolomite aside, there are other kinds of sediment in those sequences that needed heat and pressure to solidify into stone. Michael raises a good question: how did the uppermost layers of those mountains ever become rock? The idea that the entire area (mudflats, sand banks, and so on) SANK after it was laid down as sediment, to a depth of at least 5 MILES into the earth, in order for it to be put under enough heat and pressure to turn it to stone is just silly. Stuff like that doesn't happen-- all that plunging and rearing stuff. It's a fairy tale. So what can it all mean?

Michael might be right in thinking that hard ridges on dune-like mountains indicate an electrical component to their lithification. Martian dunes have hard ridges along their crests in some instances. The explanation supposedly is the following:
http://irsps.sci.unich.it/education/sicilia/sicily_guidebook.pdf

The surface of Piano delle Concazze consists of a layer of lapilli [note: these are small, irregular, droplet-sized lava pieces expelled during an eruption] resting on top of a thick set of lava flows. The thickness of the lapilli layer is quite variable ranging from a few centimetres to 3 meters. Near the border of the Valle del Leone several blocks of lava rocks increase the roughness of the surface.

The surface is also affected by aeolian processes, which formed sinuous discontinuous ridges similar to the windformed
megaripple. These are features that have been observed in desert areas where deflation processes compete with depositional processes. Their characteristics is to be coarser on the crest. It is interesting to note that in the crest there is a larger concentration of lava fragments (from the underlying rocks), whereas the lapilli are prevalent in the troughs. Lava fragments are denser and heavier than lapilli. The variables playing a role in the formation of these
features are the high-energy of the wind and the low availability of sand-grade detritus.

The cliff formed by the Valle del Leone display a fine section of basalt lava flows."


I'd like to get comments and opinions on the above quote and paper, if anyone has a mind to.
Doubt is not proof.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby webolife » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:05 pm

Starbiter Mike,
The Columbia River areas you referred to happen to be one of my favorite playgrounds.
I've collected petrified wood from the top of that hill to the east of Beverly. I say "hill" because it is not much of a mountain really... 1500 ft is likely its elevation above sea level, not above the surrounding playa. I've climbed it from the river to the summit in about 40 minutes.
The hill exhibits multilayered basalt and sandy gravels, typical of the basalt plateau [and the southern Cascade mountains, south say of I-90] in Washington. Artesian wells tap water stored in these sections.
Although there are remarkable river cuts of many layered basalt, much excavation, as has been done in dam building and bridges, reveals layers of various types of sedimentary materials, from clays, to sands to gravel, and one of my favorites, diatomaceous earth. In addition several locations around those parts show pillow lavas...
All this to say that the basalt plateau formed in an episode or episodes of both basalt and seawater flooding during the westward push of the continent, before the uplift of the Cascades. A layer of basalt may be pouring out, while at the same time water is flooding over the ancient and rapidly changing coastline. Any particular basalt flow is atop basalt in one location, pillowy in another, and resting atop some sedimentary material in another. Petrified wood is found typically in the various types of sedimentary layers between flows, but also molds of tree trunks are found in the flows themselves. Some wood has been found un-petrified in clayey layers 5 or 6 flows below the surface near Vantage, Washington. The duning process you are referring to isn't what I see there.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:01 pm

Hello folks: I'd like to continue my rant on folded mountains. I can't think of a less EU, catastrophic model. According to the architects of the model it requires not hundreds of millions years, but over a billion years for this process to transpire. The plates must subduct inch by inch, causing the neighboring plate to rise. If these architects had to accomplish this event in 12,000 years, the maximum under EU concepts, i think they would decline. I don't understand members of this forum trying to defend this process. To me folding is to Geology what Black Holes, Dark Matter, and Dark Energy are to astronomy.

Concerning Plutons, they are supposed to be injections of granite with mountains of soil surrounding them. Then the soil conveniently erodes away leaving a ridge of Granite. For my money the pluton is the edge of the slip face. Being thinner than the base of the mountain the current is stronger causing the process to be more more energetic. Same idea with Basalt Ridges. The Ju Ju is stronger.

Elevation seems to play a role in all this. If an Enhanced Aurora is the agent then it would descend from above. This would make the tops of the mountains more vulnerable. The tree line on many mountains is interesting. Some places that are at higher elevation have trees and grass, while other lower areas have rock so hard nothing grows. The process doesen't seem to be strictly a matter of elevation. The Aurora being filamentary might explain this.

The ability to convert sediment to rock seems directional.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 4&t=h&z=11

The areas that are grey are rock. The dark areas that look greenish are grass. If you'll notice the rock is facing SW. The grass is facing NE. Go back and forth between terrain and satellite. The process goes North beyond the Google Map for quite a distance. The energy seems to have flowed horizontally to the NE. When it is confronted by opposition you get rock. When it reaches the ridge the the resistance is removed and you find grass. The grass seems to prefer dirt to rock. Just after reaching the ridge there is usually a belching cow. This is grazing land. This cow thing happens over and over. It's part of the deal. Water would effect both sides of a valley. In this instance one side is rock, the other is grass for almost a hundred miles. It seems the energy goes North from the Colorado River. As i said earlier, the river seems to have been a conductor in the process. By the Hover Dam the energy direction seems to be more East West.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 4&t=h&z=11

The area on the left of the map is Red Rock Canyon. The silver area is rock, the same as the first map. The area past the ridge is grass. The only explanation i can imagine would be flowing plasma with an attitude.

Sorry for the rambling, my Mother smoked and drank. It's not my fault.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Yo, Yo, Yo, Webo: The Columbia River at the mountain in question is 500 feet. The ridge to the East is 2000 feet. The ridge to the West is 2500 feet when you go West from the river just a little.

Where do you have the Basalt emanating from? There is no volcano there that i know of. And why didn't the Basalt flow fill the valleys next to the mountain,instead of building a 1500 foot mountain? Coincidentally the same size as the Namib Dunes/Fossilized Mountains.

The Basalt flows i described south of there around Bend have volcanoes.

The uplifting you describe to produce the Cascade Mountains is considered a slow process. Does that fit EU?

The canyon itself seems problematic. If the mountain was there first and the river eroded through it you'd have a lake first. Then the lake over tops the mountain causing a canyon to erode. If the river had gone East at Beverly and then South to Basin City the elevation is a little more than 800 feet to join up with the river South of Hanford. The other explanation is the mountain slowly rising while the river slowly erodes it over millions of years. That's complicated and special.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 9&t=p&z=10

The other thing i like about this mountain is the break up of the ridge line when it hits the chasm of the canyon. Going from West to East the ridge repeats the same pattern you see on most dunes. It consists of repeating segments. After the canyon, the process is disturbed. It takes 15 miles before the pattern resumes South of Smyrna. The repeating pattern of the ridge requires a consistent ridge, i think. The wind flow seems to have been disturbed at the canyon.

My position is that the river was there first. The mountain grew from West to East. When the mountain reached the river the accumulation was prevented. The dust and sand then flew across the canyon causing the process to continue at Sentinel Mountain. I was there three months ago with Mel. It looked like a dune with the stratification slopping down on the edges to the North and South. The center was rather horizontal which leads me to believe there was considerable underwater sedimentation due to episodic flooding. This is the drainage for a huge area.
I think the basalt in the canyon is from the River of Fire being pinched by the canyon being narrow. If the plasma flow goes from a wide area to a narrow area the pinching seems to increase the current causing igneous rock to form. I refer to this as external igneous or external fire rock.

Got to go, i need wine and i'm out, michael
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:09 pm

Duning, faulting, seeping, flooding, subsiding, i don't know; but if you want igneous formation that looks like it was electrically yanked up from the bowels of the Earth [think welding with DC negative polarity] check this one of the Wallowa mountains.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=p&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-sk-gm&utm_term=rivers%20map

I've never been there, but have always been fascinated with that spot on the northwest quadrant Weather Channel map.

Eye of the Bison
Wallowa Mountains Seismic Study
Lithospheric Instability as an Origin for Columbia River Flood Basalts and Wallowa Mountains Uplift
... magmatism associated with back-arc processes...
... localized large-scale uplift over the past ~16 My...
The Wallowa Mountains, also known as the American Alps, are located in northeast Oregon and are a relatively recent tectonic feature. In contrast to most mountains, which are created during the collision of tectonic plates, these have formed in the abscence of such any significant tectonic event. Their natural beauty and geologic complexity make this area a great place to study.

The southeast Columbia Plateau offers a fascinating and important geologic setting in which to study many Earth processes, including intraplate volcanism, mantle convection, crustal deformation, and the geochemical evolution of flood basalts. between accreted oceanic lithosphere of the Columbia Embayment and Precambrian lithosphere of North America are numerous island arcs and other exotic terranes.

Based on seismic imaging of the upper mantle, we propose this uplift is related, in part, to the cause of flood basalt volcanism (i.e., Columbia River Basalts) in the middle Miocene, which we hypothesize to be lithospheric delamination.

http://www.geo.brown.edu/People/Grads/abt/WMSS/WMgeneral.htm
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Kapriel » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:26 am

Re:Webolife's post:
Just wondering how they distinguish island arcs from flood basalts in this particular area. (I guess I could go look it up tomorrow-- when I'm more awake).
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:12 am

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=p&z=12

Hello Seasmith: I think this is the area you refer to. Classic dune pattern with slip faces. It would appear the wind was primarily from the West.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 9&t=h&z=16
I think this could be a cousin.

By the way, the process for turning ore to rock requires a DC welding generator, not AC.
It might be Spring before i can do the experiments.
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