Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:20 pm

The Great Dog wrote:The Great Dog feels compelled to point out that Wal Thornhill presented electrical deposition of sediments in 2001:

The walls of Valles Marineris shows evidence of widespread sedimentary layering on Mars. But such enormous quantities of sediment must have eroded from somewhere and the fact that any ancient highlands are preserved on Mars is difficult to reconcile with such a source. A second major difficulty is that Valles Marineris is near the top of a bulge 10 km above datum. How are sediments deposited at that altitude? It would require the region first being a deep basin to collect a thick stack of sediments (assuming there was copious fast-running surface water), then uplifted an incredible 20 km by a mantle plume and voluminous lava intrusions with little surface volcanism.

How many major premises in geology are wrong? The electrical model provides a far simpler solution never considered before in sedimentation. The material removed electrically from one body in a cosmic discharge is transferred in large part to the other body. That creates widespread surface layering. The airless Moon shows evidence too of extensive layering and it is covered in electrical scars.


And...

The arguments for the electrical sculpting of Valles Marineris apply equally to the Grand Canyon. These major features on two very different planets look so similar for the simple reason that the same forces created them. Water was not involved in the process. Let us note the similarities. The Grand Canyon is on a high plateau. The tributaries are deeply incised, short, and tend to end in rounded alcoves. The tributary canyons of Ius Chasma are strikingly similar to those of the Grand Canyon. The material excavated from the Grand Canyon seems to be missing. On a watery Earth, the Colorado river simply took advantage of the sinuous channel carved by the subsurface cosmic lightning. The edges of the Grand Canyon are sharp and do not show much erosion into the mile deep valleys. That argues for very recent formation. Geologists cannot decipher the history of the Grand Canyon because their training never envisaged electrical erosion as a result of interplanetary thunderbolts. Nor did it teach that thick strata and anomalous deposits can be dumped from space in hours. Interplanetary electrical forces can raise mountains, twist and overturn strata, dump oceans on to land, preserve shattered flora and fauna in the rocks – all in a geological instant.


TGD




What Wal proposes couldn't be more different than me. You might want to look at my videos. I'm not proposing water deposition on Mars. I'm proposing something similar to billies experiments. I'm not proposing that the Grand Canyon and Valles Marineris were ripped out, i'm claiming the canyons were never full of material. Just like Billies experiments. Please listen more carefully.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:54 pm

I haven't heard ANYONE claim the craters are the result of incoming material. The EU position is the craters were pulled up from the ground below. EU might claim external material is an option, but it never seems to be invoked in the TPODs.

Like the way mainstream claims there's electricity in space, but it doesn't do anything. Please find a quote where the surface is growing from external material, not being ripped out by EDM. The way one might expect after reading Worlds in Collision. That's after reading WiC without abandoning the descriptions. The air was full of dust. Dusty plasma!
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby moses » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:49 pm

Michael, if material was dragged in from outside and deposited on or very near the rim or a crater then the usual measurements of this material will show it to be somehow different to surrounding material. Even if you reckon the surrounding material came from the same source, there would still be measurable differences.

Mars has more material on one side due to some event or planetary arrangement that occurred way before any Velikovsky stuff. Your insistance that just about everything occurred around the time that Velikovsky was describing is very annoying.

You go out into the field. Get some samples, measure these rocks, prove that they came from outside the area.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:55 pm

moses wrote:Michael, if material was dragged in from outside and deposited on or very near the rim or a crater then the usual measurements of this material will show it to be somehow different to surrounding material. Even if you reckon the surrounding material came from the same source, there would still be measurable differences.

Mars has more material on one side due to some event or planetary arrangement that occurred way before any Velikovsky stuff. Your insistance that just about everything occurred around the time that Velikovsky was describing is very annoying.

You go out into the field. Get some samples, measure these rocks, prove that they came from outside the area.
Cheers,
Mo



The entire area surrounding Meteor Crater is covered in the layers linked below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GyNP ... sp=sharing

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7635095 ... !1e4?hl=en

The drainage channels in the map above allow the consolidated sandstone to be seen. The sandstone layers almost appeared molten, like basalt. The layers stretch out for 50 miles and more. Dust from above seems like a good candidate to me. With extra thick layers at the rim. Slightly molten dust possibly. While it was raining, causing the drainage channels, that all stop at the high points, as might be expected if fluvial. I feel the drainages were prevented by moving water while the dry areas were spackeled with dust, attracted to the vortex at Meteor Crater.

The video below covers the process nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s54_uDaPkRc

The fact that my invoking Dr Velikovsky upsets You is the best news i've in a long time! How do You come off knowing the date of the last Mars events don't jibe with Dr V!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Homer describes four encounters between Ares and Athene after the Venus/Earth events. This is when i think the cratered area, and Valles Marineris were created. Less than 3,500 years ago, witnessed by the descendants of the survivors of the Venus/Earth events. At least that's my first choice.

I guess you don't need options to be certain Dr Velikovsky is wrong. By the way, how many outrageous predictions have You made that were later confirmed? I'm not worthy to carry Dr V's jock strap. And You look down on him.

michael steinbacher
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Bomb20 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:32 pm

Mars has more material on one side due to some event or planetary arrangement that occurred way before any Velikovsky stuff.


Are you able to prove your claim?
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby moses » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:11 am

What would produce the erosion of lots of material from one side of Mars, yet have little or no erosion, or perhaps considerable deposition on the other side. Let us think.

The first think to note is that boundary of the eroded half is many degrees different to the present equator. So whilst the pole of Mars was pointing in it's present direction, the erosion did not occur. So the erosion was before an event, presumably, that shifted the pole of Mars by many degrees. Presumably Velikovskian.

Now is it at all likely that a planetary interaction with Mars could have caused the erosion. Or produce a large amount of deposition. But that is the problem in such an interaction, it would take a long interaction to produce that much material and for the erosion or deposition to only be in one hemisphere, we have an extremely unlikely scenario.

So I am suggesting a very long time of interaction between Mars and another planet. And just as our Moon always faces Earth one side of Mars would always face this other planet. This I see as a stable situation that would have occurred before the Velikovsky interactions.

Best logic.
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Mo
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:13 am

moses wrote:What would produce the erosion of lots of material from one side of Mars, yet have little or no erosion, or perhaps considerable deposition on the other side. Let us think.

The first think to note is that boundary of the eroded half is many degrees different to the present equator. So whilst the pole of Mars was pointing in it's present direction, the erosion did not occur. So the erosion was before an event, presumably, that shifted the pole of Mars by many degrees. Presumably Velikovskian.

Now is it at all likely that a planetary interaction with Mars could have caused the erosion. Or produce a large amount of deposition. But that is the problem in such an interaction, it would take a long interaction to produce that much material and for the erosion or deposition to only be in one hemisphere, we have an extremely unlikely scenario.

So I am suggesting a very long time of interaction between Mars and another planet. And just as our Moon always faces Earth one side of Mars would always face this other planet. This I see as a stable situation that would have occurred before the Velikovsky interactions.



Please read the Homer section of WiC. Zues warns Ares to leave Athene alone. Ares ignores the advice and rushes at Venus. Venus stabs Ares with a spear, probably while the atmosphere was choked with dusty ionized comet plasma. I think this could be the moment Valles Mariners and the craters to the SW were created, increasing the depth of the area surrounding each crater. I have a Greek [Homer] repeating the legend that came from Egypt.

This is much fresher info than the dawn of human memory that You choose to invoke, Moses. Any surface features created during the Saturn period would probably be covered by subsequent encounters with both Venus and Earth, as described in WiC. Or would You prefer we ignore the more recent events to concentrate of the distant past?

michael

Best logic.
Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:52 am

The Great Dog wrote:Since the "EU Community" has published articles and videos that refer to ionic deposition, deposits of material from one pole to another on Mars, and other such presentations, the Great Dog views the above comments with suspicion. For example (July 2007):

In a larger view of the south pole, the area surrounding the ice cap is peppered with craters, many of them several kilometers in diameter, most notably, the formation in the upper left that exhibits a dome-shaped central feature within a crater. The dome-shaped feature is unique for its size, but appears to be an exact analog for many images of “blueberries” embedded within a rock matrix. A case for the electrical nature of such formations has been made in past Pictures of the Day and we will return to this topic in future articles.

The south polar deposits on Mars cover an area bigger than the State of Texas – about 430,000 square kilometers. Of particular interest are the dual, swirling arcs that mark the paths of the ridges, buried under the carbon dioxide frost and water-ice deposits visible at both poles. For all intents and purposes, the twin spiral shapes at the Martian poles are representative of the electric dipole effect that has been demonstrated at the poles of both Venus and Saturn. The hardened rock strata, preserving the shapes of two counter-rotating currents indicates that the crust of Mars experienced, and may be continuing to experience, electric forces. As has been noted in a previous Thunderbolts Picture of the Day, the electricity in the Martian environment is what gives rise to the dust storms that form in this region, feeding their huge, spinning flow.

In August of 2003, electrical theorist, Wal Thornhill wrote:

“The abundant circumpolar pits in the south lack the raised rims expected of impacts. They exhibit the alignments of so-called 'secondary crater chains.' There are no such things. All linear arrangements of craters are the result of an arc moving across a surface. Both the pits beneath and the delicate layering are the kinds of things we should expect if the south polar deposit was electrically deposited.”

When electric currents pass through a plasma they are twisted into a helical pattern as the forces attempt to balance themselves within the magnetic turbulence that is created by the interaction. Because Mars lacks a substantial magnetosphere, its surface is almost directly exposed to intense positive charges coming from the sun. At some point in the past the intensity of those forces increased to a titanic level and traveled through the planet from pole-to-pole in a huge electric circuit. That formidable event excavated billions of tons of material from the north polar region, while at the same time layering a similar volume of material on the south pole.


Mel Acheson did discuss machining in 2005:

https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005 ... icecap.htm

However, along with Stephen Smith, he and Amy Acheson followed Wal Thornhill in presenting electrical deposition as a solid theory:

https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005 ... osnote.htm

And from 2011:

A foundation of Electric Universe theory is the flow of electricity through space and the catastrophic influence it had on planets and moons in the recent past. Whatever phenomenon it was, within the recorded history of humanity a great cataclysm engulfed the Earth. Canyons were blasted out, mountains raised, ocean basins shifted, and great swathes of plants, animals, and people obliterated in the blink of an eye.

Those enormous energies, the rearrangement of the topography, and the intense radiation make it impossible to assign any measure of antiquity. Repeated and rapid sedimentation that hardened to stone in mere minutes, fossilizing its burden of organic detritus, means that what is visible on the surface might be the same age as what lies beneath.

Stephen Smith

Hat tip to Mel Acheson


The Great Dog suggests that Michael Steinbacher stick to presenting his ideas without the addition of false criticisms. Not only would that bring his commentary up to a higher level, it would help him avoid mistakes.

TGD



Hi TGD,

I now feel i was to broad and general when i claimed EU doesn't have a history of recognizing deposition as a geologic process. Wal in his 2002 paper does claim removal from the northern hemisphere of Mars covered the southern hemisphere of Mars. That would certainly constitute deposition.

Same with Amy Acheson claiming frozen carbon dioxide is accumulating on Mars. That would be deposition, but much different than what i'm proposing with comet dust.

I'll try to choose my words more carefully in the future. On the other hand, i've been beating my head against a wall trying to get EU insiders to consider the consequences of dusty plasma accumulating into mountains as described in WiC.

As i described to Moses in an earlier post, the first encounter between Ares and Athene, when Ares is stabbed by a spear, is my first choice for Valles Mariners and the craters to the SW. That's my A position, but there might be a BCDE option. I prefer this option because Venus was probably still cometary with lots of dusty plasma to accumulate around the craters as they were produced by huge arcs. That's my vision anyway. With this model there is no need to excavate the entire northern hemisphere.

Generally speaking, less is more when it comes to processes. Ionized comet dust might explain the increased elevation on the southern hemisphere of Mars better than excavation of the North. At least that's my A position.



michael steinbacher
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby moses » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:37 pm

Michael, start using numbers. What mass or volume of material was eroded or deposited to produce the Mars unequal hemispheres. So how does the depth of the Valles Mariners compare with that calculated volume and so depth.

We all agree that the Valles Mariners was probably the result of Ares rushing at Venus, which would be a powerful by fairly quick interaction. To even hint that this is what caused the major erosion and/or deposition is completely daft. It is like you don't care about logic problems, everything must be attributed to Velikovsky.

I choose to invoke an earlier time because I find it more logical. Not because it fits in with some grand scheme I believe in. We are going to nail the recent events when we can eliminate events that occurred way before this. You are not helping in this process because of you continually seeing things that are not there.

Measure, measure, measure.
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Mo
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:48 pm

moses wrote:Michael, start using numbers. What mass or volume of material was eroded or deposited to produce the Mars unequal hemispheres. So how does the depth of the Valles Mariners compare with that calculated volume and so depth.

We all agree that the Valles Mariners was probably the result of Ares rushing at Venus, which would be a powerful by fairly quick interaction. To even hint that this is what caused the major erosion and/or deposition is completely daft. It is like you don't care about logic problems, everything must be attributed to Velikovsky.

I choose to invoke an earlier time because I find it more logical. Not because it fits in with some grand scheme I believe in. We are going to nail the recent events when we can eliminate events that occurred way before this. You are not helping in this process because of you continually seeing things that are not there.

Measure, measure, measure.
Cheers,
Mo



Daft, i'll take that under advisement.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Bomb20 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:01 am

I have further remarks concerning the VM built up with external material-scenario. I think the following questions must be considered in further discussions, research and experiments as well:

1) There are Lichtenberg figures and craters and cuts in the terrain on both sides that can not be easily explained by above mentioned scenario. So I wonder if experiments are showing similar structures. If not, then the processes of addition of material was accompanied or followed by process of subtraction of material.

2) Are experiments displaying any high ridges like inside the Graben of Valles Marineris?

3) As well the question arises how did the process create the widened area in Melas Chasma and parallel running structures?

4) And the crustal profile of the Mars must be compared to that of the Moon and checked if the process of addition is really applicable to both.

Nevertheless I take from this discussion again that we have to consider the full range of electric processes and electric opportunities in an Electric Universe and not only the most spectacular and impressive ideas.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:15 pm

Bomb20 wrote:I have further remarks concerning the VM built up with external material-scenario. I think the following questions must be considered in further discussions, research and experiments as well:

1) There are Lichtenberg figures and craters and cuts in the terrain on both sides that can not be easily explained by above mentioned scenario. So I wonder if experiments are showing similar structures. If not, then the processes of addition of material was accompanied or followed by process of subtraction of material.

2) Are experiments displaying any high ridges like inside the Graben of Valles Marineris?

3) As well the question arises how did the process create the widened area in Melas Chasma and parallel running structures?

4) And the crustal profile of the Mars must be compared to that of the Moon and checked if the process of addition is really applicable to both.

Nevertheless I take from this discussion again that we have to consider the full range of electric processes and electric opportunities in an Electric Universe and not only the most spectacular and impressive ideas.





Hi Bomb,

Have You been looking at my videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s54_uDaPkRc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF2LznGvGuA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ETGPU0R64

https://www.youtube.com/user/michaelsteinbacher/videos

Licthenberg figures are made every day by the outgoing tide. They are NOT just electrical. There are fluvial Licthenberb patterns all over the western US that have nothing to do with plasma.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... GOrkfMsjHw
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby Bomb20 » Sat May 02, 2015 12:02 am

I am aware of fluvial patterns with Lichtenberg shape but for a differentiation I would like to see progress in the field of research there. I hope there will be more research like Paul Anderson´s, presented in 2013, to clarify this problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7w1rGeqXBg

By the way I downloaded all your clips until now but I had not enough time to watch them all.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Sun May 31, 2015 10:58 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQWUMqPAhY

A different take on craters.

michael
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Unread postby starbiter » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:01 pm

Space News segment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5vf-DWScsw

The Grand Canyon.
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