EU Theory predictions for LCROSS moon impact mission?

[MattEU]

What are EU Theory predictions for the rocket impacts or has it not travelled far enough away from the Earth/Moon/Sun to have a different charge? The last impact on the moon brought about the bright flash and burst of EM energy. Will this do the same or be just a "normal" impact?

Lunar CRater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS)

The Mission Objectives of the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) include confirming the presence or absence of water ice in a permanently shadowed crater at the Moon’s South Pole. The identification of water is very important to the future of human activities on the Moon. LCROSS will excavate the permanently dark floor of one of the Moon’s polar craters with two heavy impactors in 2009 to test the theory that ancient ice lies buried there. The impact will eject material from the crater’s surface to create a plume that specialized instruments will be able to analyze for the presence of water (ice and vapor), hydrocarbons and hydrated materials.

LCROSS Project Site

[Lloyd]

* See previous thread & TPOD for predictions here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1978&p=22617&hilit=lcross#p22563
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch ... 19moon.htm
* In order for impacts to produce bright flashes or electrical discharges, it seems it's required that the impactor must come from an inner or outer orbit in order to build up a charge difference.

[solrey]

Here goes:

Total Volume for Centaur: ~1200 metric tons (NASA says ~900)
Total Volume for Shepherding Craft: ~ 500 metric tons (NASA says ~350)
Chemical analysis should lie within the range for comets.

("Water Vapor" in the chart is actually detected as OH)
They will detect >50% OH, however direct evidence for H2O should amount to <10%.
They might detect a surprising amount of Na (sodium), perhaps up to 20%
More fine, talcum powder like dust than expected.

4 days past full would put the Moon near the outer edge of the magnetotail, I think. If the probes happen to move in and out of the magnetotail, that might affect charge balance. Depending on strength, direction and flux of the IMF, and charge state of the probes, there might be a weak discharge, possibly detected as a faint/weak "whistler", probably not a visible flash though. Although the impact will be about 1/3 more energetic than predicted, the crater won't be 1/3 larger, more like 10% larger. I wouldn't be surprised to see a dim, or dark, aurora like ionization/polarization of the dust and gas plume shortly after impact. I would also expect organized, vortical "polarization" of the dust around the polar magnetic field (weak as it may be) There should be an electrostatic dust layer that will eventually form a few meters over the surface, and I wouldn't be surprised if it mostly takes the shape of a broken ring around the southern pole.

I predict a few surprises for NASA, at least.

I wonder if Wal Thronhill will have a prediction for this one. He nailed deep impact, although these moon impacts should be far less dramatic.

[MattEU]

Thanks for links to previous forum discussion and TPOD and also your thoughts on what will or will not happen.

I am wondering also about what will be measured with the physical impact on the Moon. During the Apollo 12 Moon mission they hit the moon with part of the Lunar Module and the moon reverberated like a bell for around an hour! See below for highlights of an old article about it.


The full article of just over a page is available here

I love the fact the author, in an article about something as strange and important as this, does not just get on his high horse but charges it straight at the enemy!

I don't know what to think about the moon ringing like a bell, does anyone have any ideas or read something about this? Or remembers where this has been disussed before on the forum?

[Lloyd]

* Here's the former Hollow Moon thread: http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=10&t=906

[solrey]

They will detect >50% OH, however direct evidence for H2O should amount to <10%.

Oops, that should be direct evidence for H2O will be <0.1%

[solrey]

I think most rocky bodies are essentially like geodes, with a certain percentage of hollowness at the core. I doubt that would cause a shock induced "global" reverberation though, with such relatively small force.
Considering the article mentions the reverberation was in the surface, not necessarily thoughout the entire moon, and detected by the one seismograph nearby, it appears to be a mostly localized phenomena.
I'm thinking wave propagation in piezoelectric materials.

Acoustic Wave Scattering by Mixing Modes in Piezoelectric Media

Wave Propagation in Piezoelectric Layered Media

[solrey]

To elaborate;
The force of compression on impact creates an electric charge/current in the dielectric layers of the surface in the impact zone, while simultaneously producing an "acoustic" wave that propagates through the solid, rocky material. The combination of the two produces a "feedback loop", like amplifier feedback when a mic gets knocked over. Bombardment by the ions in the solar plasma stream probably act as an additional, low energy "power source", once the process is initiated. The seismometer picks up the "ring" of the "acoustic" waves via the vibration through the solid, rocky crust. Eventually the energy dissipates and the "ringing" subsides.
Just a guess.

[solrey]

Speaking of piezoelectrics, I think a subsurface discharge will be initiated upon impact by compression of the dielectric rock layers. I think that will also disturb the EM field/plasma environment in the south polar region. That will likely enhance/define the electrostatic dust layer. That piezoelectric discharge might be picked up as an EM radio wave spike, approaching, or even equalling x-ray energies, immediately following physical impact.
If seismic activity can be monitored, there should be a similar "ringing", as noted previously, maybe lasting up to 3 or 4 hours.
I don't think charge differential between probe and surface will amount to much, probably no more than low energy EM radio waves, a whistler, would be detected, <0.5 seconds prior to impact, similar to meteorites in Earth's atmosphere.
Most, if not all, of the gases detected will be the by-products of electro-chemical/thermatic reaction chains. They'll call it sublimation and photodissociation, though.

I'm wondering if the second, massive discharge on the Deep Impact mission was a piezoelectric discharge upon impact, where the first, lower level discharge, would have been arcing between the probe and the surface.

[MattEU]

Cheers solrey, about time i started looking into and learning piezoelectrics as you have shown again how important an affect it is in an Electric Universe.

[mharratsc]

Sol is definitely one of the sharper tools in the shed...


Mike H.

[solrey]

Thanks, MikeH. Maybe...but I'm in good company in this here shack where the sharper tools hang.

Ran across this while checking into more details about the mission.

The Moon and the Magnetotail...not just a one night stand.

Anyone can tell when the Moon is inside the magnetotail. Just look: "If the Moon is full, it is inside the magnetotail," says Stubbs. "The Moon enters the magnetotail three days before it is full and takes about six days to cross and exit on the other side."
It is during those six days that strange things can happen.
During the crossing, the Moon comes in contact with a gigantic "plasma sheet" of hot charged particles trapped in the tail. The lightest and most mobile of these particles, electrons, pepper the Moon's surface and give the Moon a negative charge.

On the Moon's dayside this effect is counteracted to a degree by sunlight: UV photons knock electrons back off the surface, keeping the build-up of charge at relatively low levels. But on the nightside, in the cold lunar dark, electrons accumulate and voltages can climb to hundreds or thousands of volts.

The ground, meanwhile, may leap into the sky. There is compelling evidence (see, e.g., the Surveyor 7 image below) that fine particles of moondust, when sufficiently charged-up, actually float above the lunar surface. This could create a temporary nighttime atmosphere of dust ready to blacken spacesuits, clog machinery, scratch faceplates (moondust is very abrasive) and generally make life difficult for astronauts.

Stranger still, moondust might gather itself into a sort of diaphanous wind. Drawn by differences in global charge accumulation, floating dust would naturally fly from the strongly-negative nightside to the weakly-negative dayside. This "dust storm" effect would be strongest at the Moon's terminator, the dividing line between day and night.

Unfortunately, the LCROSS impact will happen after the moon is outside the magnetosphere all together.

The dark circle in the crosshairs is about where the moon will be when LCROSS slams into it.

I still think at that point the charge differential will not have equalized yet so a piezoelectric discharge might still trigger the aforementioned, subtle electro-static phenomena.
Any radio frequencies produced by piezoelectric discharge on impact should be strongest in the VLF band, similar to lightning. Any pre-impact electrical signatures would likely be reflecting the strongest radio bands emitted by the sun, like the 10.7 cm radio flux.

[mharratsc]

Wow- that excerpt that Sol quoted read like something from a TPOD!

Is there hope that Mainstream is slowly coming around??


Mike H.

[nick c]

A related thread:
[url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=372&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15]Electric Currents Between the Moon and Earth[/url2]

nick c

[solrey]

It's Official: Water Found on the Moon.

Well, at least OH was found. Every time they find OH, they automatically say water.
How did it get there?
Remember those electro-chemical reaction chains I mentioned?
Turns out, that was spot on.

Schematic showing the stream of charged hydrogen ions carried from the Sun by the solar wind. One possible scenario to explain hydration of the lunar surface is that during the daytime, when the Moon is exposed to the solar wind, hydrogen ions liberate oxygen from lunar minerals to form OH and H2O, which are then weakly held to the surface. At high temperatures (red-yellow) more molecules are released than adsorbed. When the temperature decreases (green-blue) OH and H2O accumulate. Image courtesy of University of Maryland/F. Merlin/McREL

The scientists were looking for a signature of water in the craters near the poles, but found evidence for water instead on the sunlit portions of the moon. This was certainly unexpected and the science team from M3 looked and re-looked at their data for several months.

Jessica Sunshine and colleagues with Deep Impact also found the presence of bound water or hydroxyl in trace amounts over much of the Moon’s surface. Their results suggest that the formation and retention of these molecules is an ongoing process on the lunar surface – and that solar wind could be responsible for forming them.

As the sun undergoes nuclear fusion, it constantly emits a stream of particles, mostly protons, which are positively charged hydrogen atoms. On Earth, the atmosphere and magnetism prevent us from being bombarded by these protons, but the moon lacks that protection, meaning the oxygen-rich minerals and glasses on the surface of the moon are constantly pounded by hydrogen in the form of protons, moving at velocities of one-third the speed of light.

When those protons hit the lunar surface with enough force, suspects Taylor, they break apart oxygen bonds in soil materials, and where free oxygen and hydrogen are together, there's a high chance that trace amounts of water will be formed. These traces are thought to be about a quart of water per ton of soil.

Like I said previously, any OH or H2O detected by LCROSS will be created in-situ, due to electro-chemical reactions.