Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby webolife » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:51 pm

Or before it was formed.
Also, consider, as I implied but did not state before, that there are biotic and abiotic factors working together in any oil deposit. The relative degree to which each of the various factors is involved will bring about different looking results, without a radically different mechanism.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Anaconda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:50 am

juan wrote:The implications and consequences of an abiotic origin of petroleum are profound from the point of view of investing. If the abiotic theory is correct, then the Peak Oil theory is mostly incorrect and oil's abundance is guaranteed, and price increases for its products are limited.

In reference to this theory, I asked a scientist and acquaintance what he thought about abiotic origins of oil and gas. His reply was that he had been involved in government studies of the problem and his team found that oil varied so much in its qualities and characteristics that they concluded it is of biological origin. He thought if oil were abiotic in origin, then it would be more uniform in composition. In support of the biological origns, my father, a petroleum engineer, used to bring samples of newly discovered oil home with him after a well was completed. Each seemed very different: some green, some black, some brownish. Some thick, some thinner.

What do you think?


Hi juan:

Of course, the scientific evidence for Abiotic Oil has to stand or fall on its own merits, and, indeed, the vast majority of the posts and linked sources on this thread focus on the scientific evidence, but you are right to note "peak" oil theory has an impact on oil prices. Future availability or perceived availability has an impact on price, this is well established as part of economic theory. Any review of "peak" oil theory discusses the price level of oil as a result of "peak" oil theory. Also, review of financial predictions of oil's future price take into consideration the perceived future availability.

In fact, at the present time, oil tankers sit full of oil around the world, because it is thought oil prices will rise because there is a stubborn and persistent idea that since oil is finite, being a "fossil" product, and production is thought to be at or near "peak", any increase in demand will causes prices to go up substantially because demand can't be met (see link below):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 989760.stm
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Anaconda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:46 pm

juan wrote:The implications and consequences of an abiotic origin of petroleum are profound from the point of view of investing. If the abiotic theory is correct, then the Peak Oil theory is mostly incorrect and oil's abundance is guaranteed, and price increases for its products are limited.

In reference to this theory, I asked a scientist and acquaintance what he thought about abiotic origins of oil and gas. His reply was that he had been involved in government studies of the problem and his team found that oil varied so much in its qualities and characteristics that they concluded it is of biological origin. He thought if oil were abiotic in origin, then it would be more uniform in composition. In support of the biological origns, my father, a petroleum engineer, used to bring samples of newly discovered oil home with him after a well was completed. Each seemed very different: some green, some black, some brownish. Some thick, some thinner.

What do you think?


Hi juan:

You raised the idea "that oil varied so much in it's qualities and characteristics" that it has to be biological in origin.

But that is highly debatable:

Thomas Gold states:

The hydrocarbon deposits of a large area often show common chemical or isotopic features, quite independent of the varied composition or the geological ages of the formations in which they are found. Such chemical signatures may be seen in the abundance ratios of some minor constituents such as traces of certain metals that are carried in petroleum; or a common tendency may be seen in the ratio of isotopes of some elements, or in the abundance ratio of some of the different molecules that make up petroleum. Thus a chemical analysis of a sample of petroleum could often allow the general area of its origin to be identified, even though quite different formations in that area may be producing petroleum. For example a crude oil from anywhere in the Middle East can be distinguished from an oil originating in any part of South America, or from the oils of West Africa; almost any of the oils from California can be distinguished from that of other regions by the carbon isotope ratio.


Gold states further:

Everyone now thinks of Arabia, the Persian Gulf, Iran and Iraq as being the oil region of the world. It is indeed one connected large patch that is oil-rich, stretching for 2,700 km from the mountains of Eastern Turkey down through the Tigris Valley of Iraq and through the Zagros Mountains of Iran into the Persian Gulf, into Saudi Arabia and further south into Oman (Figure 2). There is no feature that the geology or the topography of this entire large region has in common, and that would give any hint why it would all be oil and gas rich. The various oil deposits are in different types of rock, in rocks of quite different ages, and they are overlaid by quite different caprocks. They are in a topography of folded mountains in Turkey and the high Zagros mountains of Iran, in the river valley of the Tigris in Iraq, in the Persian Gulf itself, in the flat plains of Arabia and in the mountainous regions of Oman. It cannot have been a matter of chance that this connected region had so prolific a supply of oil and gas, but resulting from totally different circumstances in different parts of the region. These hydrocarbon-bearing formations represent times so different from each other that there would have been no similarity in the climate or in the types of vegetation that existed there during deposition, just as there is no similarity in the reservoir rocks or in the caprocks of the different regions now. Yet it is a striking fact that the detailed chemistry of these oils is similar over the whole of this large region (Kent and Warman, 1972). Surely this is an example of the need to invoke a larger scale phenomenon for the cause of the oil supply than any scale we can see in the geology of the outer crust.


And, again, Gold states:

The island arc of Indonesia, of which Java and Sumatra are the main components, belongs to a much larger pattern of an arc, that stretches from the western tip of New Guinea through these Indonesian islands into the Indian Ocean, through the Andaman Islands up into the Irrawaddi valley of Burma, and on into the high mountains of Southern China, over a total length of 6,000 km (Figure 3). That it is one connected arc all the way cannot be doubted because the frequency of earthquakes along the whole of this arc is hundreds of times greater than outside. Along the whole of this arc petroleum is very abundant. But at one end this arc is made up of volcanic islands; at the other end, in Burma and China, it is in continental material with folded mountains. Again there are great age differences and differences in every aspect of the geology in which the oilfields exist; but here we have a unifying feature, namely the belt of earthquakes and volcanoes which stretches over this entire length, and which points to causes in the deeper crust or in the mantle.


Gold sums up:

Many other examples can be quoted and they all point to the same conclusion: oil-rich regions seem to be defined by much larger-scale patterns than those we see in the surface geology or topography of the region.


So, while I do appreciate the evidence you provided, it seems that oil has regional characteristics that suggest the link of the various oils in the region are subcrustal in nature which would be indicative of an abiotic origin.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Anaconda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:24 pm

My apologies:

I failed to give proper credit to weboflife for the link he previously provided to the, above, passages from Thomas Gold. It is a very good comprehensive examination of Abiotic Oil theory (see link below):

http://trilogynet.net/Thomas_Gold/usgs.html

Thank you weboflife :)

Also, I thought it might be good to provide the following article that was published in the April 1995 issue of Offshore magazine, a petroleum exploration & production trade journal (see link below):

Title: MIDDLE EAST GEOLOGY Why the Middle East fields may produce forever
Subtitle: Reservoirs charging from below; reserves climbing despite long production history and few new discoveries

http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/artic ... rever.html

It is an interesting article to read when one considers it is from a magazine deeply intertwined with the oil industry.

(There are some concepts I disagree with such as "subduction" and the formation of the Tethys Sea, but there are many other concepts that one will recognize from the previous comments and links in this thread.)

Here is another article from the same authors as the above article in another petroleum trade journal, Oil & Gas Journal, October 28, 1991, some call this trade journal, "the Bible of oil industry" (see link below).

Title: INORGANIC ORIGIN IN UPPER MANTLE SEEN LIKELY FOR SOLID HYDROCARBON IN SYRIA PLATEAU BASALT

Robert F. Mahfoud, James N. Beck, McNeese State University, Lake Charles, La.

http://www.gasresources.net/Mafoud-91.htm

All chemical and analytical results favor an abiogenic origin for the concerned hydrocarbon in the upper mantle and/or along the rift and fractures in the plateau basalt in southern Syria.

Carbon and hydrogen, necessary for the formation of hydrocarbons, originated from the reactions Of CO2, CO, and H2O with catalysts, especially ferrous oxide and magnetite in mafic silicates (olivine and pyroxenes), at 230-500 C.

Carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide were probably mostly derived from the mantle, whereas H2O was derived from meteoric water.

Eight n-alkanes and nine aromatic compounds were found in the hydrocarbon. Included with the hydrocarbon were CI2, Br2, CO2, S, Hg, and Si; which probably originated from the upper mantle, hot springs, and/or hydrothermal systems that surged from or crossed the rifted and fractured alkaline plateau basalt.

All metallic elements listed in Table 1 probably originated from ultrabasic, basanitic, and, plateau basalt, rocks during the formation of the hydrocarbon.


Solid hydrocarbons that are found in veinlets in the fractured rocks.

It is deduced, therefore, that the process of hydrocarbon formation has taken place in the crust after a deep infiltration of meteoric waters. No sedimentary mother rocks (petroleum-bearing sedimentary rocks) or any other sedimentary rocks, but only fractured basalts, were found by drilling to more than 1,100 m in southern Syria.

Therefore clear field evidence suggesting an organic origin for the concerned hydrocarbon is lacking.

The presence of carbonatite dikes, carrying ultrabasic xenoliths coated with basanite, indicated an origin from the asthenosphere; and along with the thick plateau basalt, suggested the presence of a rift more than 70 km deep probably connected to the Dead Sea-Jordan Valley rift.

This depth certainly discounted any organic origin for the concerned hydrocarbon, " and offered favorably the probability of an inorganic (abiogenic) genetic rift-upper mantle source.

This probability easily explained all relationships between the concerned hydrocarbon and the petrologic and tectonic history in southern Syria.


This paper is a rigorous and detailed analysis & interpretation of observation & measurement, yet presented in a readable format for the layman.

The publication of these articles in petroleum industry trade journals suggests that the oil industry is well aware of and gives credence to Abiotic Oil theory. Perhaps, at one point the oil industry did not feel threatened by the prospect of Abiotic Oil theory.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby pmpeterson » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:03 am

..... If oil formatiion are linked to electricity. the continious incoming immense energy from the solar winds that enter the our planet through the poles ain"t chicken feed... No one talks about it... What does do to the earth...? increase core tempurture fueling tetonic plate movement and volcanic activity? create oil? Any ideas? Park Peterson
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:32 am

That is the essential EU question, isn't it?
What, if anything, do plasma and/or electrical fields [or Interplanetary birkeland currents, or EDMs] contribute to the origin of oil?
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:32 pm

In my previous thread at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1462 it was shown that plate tectonics likely occurred over a short time, instigated by stupendous electric discharge, when the Saturn System ended and many of the planetoids had near encounters. And I answered the question of how electrical forces probably produced oil in a recent post on this thread, when I referred to a quote from Louis Kervran on the subject. He didn't refer to electrical forces, but to transmutation, which we think is often produced by electrical forces.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:42 pm

Juan, A lack in uniform composition would not falsify abiotic origins of oil. Assuming oil is produced in the earth by means of catalytic reactions (minerals being the catalyst, pressure and temperature being other variables), variations in pressure, temperature and/or catalyst purity/composition could affect crude composition. In a multivariable equation like abiotic origins proposes there are a lot of things that could affect composition/color.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby webolife » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:08 pm

...which is basically what I said as well...
Also, as Lloyd brought up the point, that rapid tectonic activity involving spreading plates would certainly
enhance the movement of methane from below the surface, a significant factor in Gold's abiotic origins work,
in turn enriching the transmutation process from which oil comes. I do believe that this transmutation involves the changing of carbohydrates into hydrocarbons [as standard theory posits], so the biotic factor is still in place, but the rapid alteration of the crust that occurred [in the "fast" continental drift scenario] must have had a dramatic [abiotic] effect.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Tina » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:46 am

Warning over Global Oil Decline

The newspapers warns that "....the era of cheap oil is at an end" :o

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8296096.stm

SURE!!!
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:32 am

Web:
transmutation involves the changing of carbohydrates into hydrocarbons

* Which carbohydrates do you think were mostly transmuted into oil? And what do you consider the source/s of such carbohydrates? Are you thinking of higher organisms or single-celled organisms, like bacteria, fungi etc?
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:18 pm

Good question, Lloyd...I'm no oil expert by any means, but if shale oil indicates anything, it is likely of a simpler life form base such as you suggest... but in terms of the large natural reservoirs of oil, either plants or animals in mass, plus plenty of water with a reasonably high concentration of silicate catalysts such as clays, plus heat and/or pressure, plus infusion of methane from abiotic [and biotic] origins, gives you oil. Increase the catalysts, and less methane [and water?], and you get coal... the time element is not really that significant, except that I think these large scale transformations are more likely the result of a shorter, dramatic, rather than longer, more passive process.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:39 pm

* The Earth continues to be electrified, though likely much less than in the past, so it seems that oil production could continue to occur, such as by Kervran's proposed transmutation method, as I referenced previously here. Earth is still a capacitor with two plates, one at the ionosphere and one in the crust, possibly at the Moho discontinuity, which Peter James considers to be a plasma layer.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Anaconda » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:32 am

Lloyd:

Lloyd wrote:* The Earth continues to be electrified, though likely much less than in the past, so it seems that oil production could continue to occur, such as by Kervran's proposed transmutation method, as I referenced previously here. Earth is still a capacitor with two plates, one at the ionosphere and one in the crust, possibly at the Moho discontinuity, which Peter James considers to be a plasma layer.


I particularly note the last sentence:

Earth is still a capacitor with two plates, one at the ionosphere and one in the crust, possibly at the Moho discontinuity, which Peter James considers to be a plasma layer.


Lloyd, good call :idea: As, indeed, scientists have stated that the Moho is a source of Abiotic Oil :)

It's interesting to note that the Moho discontinuity is identified as a plasma layer because the Moho discontinuity has also been identified as a source for abiotic hydrocarbons. During the course of this thread, various minerals have been identified in association with hydrocarbons and more specifically with crude oil. These minerals are of the deep crust and mantle, specifically serpentine has been mentioned in linked papers on the subject of Abiotic Oil.

Scientific evidence has been discussed in the thread that plasma processes including electro-thermal chemical reactions and transmutation are likely intimately involved in abiotic hydrocarbon formation. The combination of the ideas that the Moho discontinuity is a plasma layer and abiotic hydrocarbons form in this plasma layer further the assertion that Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth are a product not just of heat and pressure, but, also, of electromagnetic processes, inherent in the Earth's crust.

Here is the abstract for a paper authored by Stanley B. Keith and Martin Hovland, both have authored Abiotic Oil scientific papers that have been previously linked in this thread (PDF link below abstract):

Title: THE SERPENTOSPHERE

The Serpentosphere consists of an earth-wide nearly continuous layer (or spherical shell) of rock dominated by serpentine group minerals (serpentinite). The Serpentosphere is typically about two kilometers thick beneath ocean basins where it is mainly composed of lizardite. Beneath continents, the Serpentosphere is mainly composed of antigorite (alpine peridotite/serpentinite) and may be several kilometers thick. The base of the Serpentosphere coincides with the gravity and high-velocity seismically defined transition beneath both continents and ocean basins commonly referred to as the Moho. Beneath ocean basins and adjacent to spreading centers, oceanic Serpentosphere is continuously generated by the interactions of deep circulating marine composition water – partly in super-critical state – with harzburgitic peridotite in a process referred to as serpentinization. Conversion of the harzburgite to lizarditic serpentine under supercritical condition is texturally preservative and probably induces about 40% volume expansion. The volume expansion provides an excellent mechanism to expel and propel fluid products – including hydrocarbons – from the area of serpentinization to seep sites at the crust hydrosphere/atmosphere interface. A downward diffusing, super-critical serpentinization front is present beneath every ocean basin and is more active where it originally formed near oceanic ridge thermal anomalies.

When ocean Serpentosphere is subducted beneath continental or oceanic crust areas, it converts to antigorite-dominated serpentinite rock (generally coincident with greenschist facies metamorphism). During flat subduction, the relatively lowdensity antigorite „floats‟ and is underplated to the base of the continental crust at the Moho geophysical interface.

In effect, both oceanic and continental Serpentospheres reflect a deep „weathering‟ process that consists of the interaction of deep crustal and oceanic, water-dominated fluids with the upper portion of a mainly harzburgitic peridotite at the top of the earth‟s lithospheric mantle. The process is analogous to the formation of the pedosphere through interactions of the earth‟s hydrosphere-atmosphere layer with the top of the earth‟s lithospheric crustal layer. In this context, the Serpentosphere may be viewed as a thin membrane that separates water-absent, life-free abiogenetic processes in the mantle from water-present, life-related processes above the Serpentosphere in the oceanic crust.

The Serpentosphere has enormous and novel implications for four major geologic problems that are of current interest to the geologic and social community: the driving mechanism for plate tectonics, the origin of life, the origin of hydrocarbons, and contributions to global climate. A close relationship between trace elements in crude oils and serpentinite has been found. Migration of the serpentine-associated hydrocarbons to seep sites on the ocean floor and in subaqueous continental environments is essentially the base of the food chain for the biosphere and provides a nutrient and energy source for life in these environments. Heat, methane and carbon dioxide generated during the serpentinization reaction provide a major thermal and greenhouse effect to the earth‟s hydrosphere-atmosphere system that is overlooked and underappreciated by the current global climate science. The ductility of the serpentine group minerals provides the tectonic “grease” that allows crustal plates to be able to slide and glide around on the earth‟s crust at the Serpentosphere/Moho interface.

Because Serpentosphere has been continuously generated since the beginning of geologic time it must be considered as one of the fundamental entities of our water-surfaced planet – the only water-planet we know of.


http://www.gsnv.org/abstracts/03-2008_t ... sphere.pdf

It would be instructive to review the previous papers by Keith and Hovland already linked in this thread where the reader will note a common theme, that oil formation happens deep in the crust, not near the surface, and oil is associated with minerals of the deep crust and mantel, both common minerals and rare, deep Earth minerals.

Petroleum, "rock" oil, and other hydrocarbons are the mineral by-products of various electro-thermal chemical reactions in the deep Earth.
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Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:25 pm

* That's pretty interesting, Anaconda. I think I'm getting educated. I'll comment on the following portion of what you quoted.
The Serpentosphere has enormous and novel implications for four major geologic problems that are of current interest to the geologic and social community: the driving mechanism for plate tectonics, the origin of life, the origin of hydrocarbons, and contributions to global climate.

* I hadn't heard of the serpentosphere just below the Moho plasma [?] layer. I mentioned recently here that the http://newgeology.us site has a theory that plate tectonics, or continental drift, occurred rapidly, in little more than a day, which I think coincided with the end of the Saturn Age catastrophe, which broke up a supercontinent and the pieces, i.e. continents and islands, skidded in all directions from the impact point to near their present positions. It was the presumably plasma Moho layer that they skidded over, as it had very low friction during fast motion, but more friction during slower motion.
* The idea that life, which is carbon-based, originated from hydrocarbons and is continuously fed by it is very interesting.
* I doubt if the hydrocarbons, like methane, and a byproduct, like CO2, contribute much to climate. Heat on Earth's surface more likely comes mainly from the galactic electric current intercepted by the Sun.
* Now, someone can check on the composition of the rocks of the serpentosphere and see if they match well the rock elements that Kervran predicted would form petroleum by transmutation. I posted that here on this thread recently also. Maybe I'll do that some day myself, but I wouldn't count on it. I think I won't have gobs of spare time for a spell.
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