Electric rain, snow, hail ....

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Steam Devils

Unread postby MGmirkin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:43 am

Well, there are mechanical vortices, as can be demonstrated pretty easily with fans and dust. But where the dividing line is between a mechanical vortex and an electrical one probably requires additional study. Various reports of tornadoes and intermittently associated luminous phenomena seem to indicate there's an electrical component to some if not many/most tornadoes. Dust devils are a bit trickier. Are they just mechanical? At what point does the mechanical transition to the electric?

http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/tornado/index.html
http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/tornado/ ... rnado.html

There's a discussion of "shear vortex" vs. "charge sheath vortex" in the above links from Peter Thomson.

Just food for thought. It seems that not all vortices are electrical to begin with. But some can be affected, if charges start flowing.

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Re: Steam Devils

Unread postby Drethon » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:20 am

I'm curious about the fans and dust vortexes, these are created by a pretty fast rotation that is driving the vortex. Can this be the same mechanic that occurs in tornadoes and devils since there is no rapidly rotating source driving them? I've heard the horizontal vortex going vertical theory but can't see that working for something like a steam devil which I would suspect can only happen if the air is very still
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Re: Steam Devils

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:27 am

There's got to be something to impart rotation. Be it a kick from some winds, the braiding of current filaments, or what have you...
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Re: Steam Devils

Unread postby redeye » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:16 pm

If it's misty, and there is a lot of moisture in the air, would this make it more electrically conductive? Maybe even more so if you were near salt water? These devils seem to form in all sort of conditions, and even where there aren't any conditions, like Mars. To me, that would suggest there is more than just wind shear going on, although it could explain how some vortexes form.

The pictures of the steam and snow devils are incredible. One looks incredibly elegant whereas the other seems somewhat monstrous! Both seem utterly out of place.

I can imagine a steam devil (haar devil?) forming from the mist over Loch Ness and starting a legend.

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Re: Steam Devils

Unread postby Drethon » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:07 am

MGmirkin wrote:There's got to be something to impart rotation. Be it a kick from some winds, the braiding of current filaments, or what have you...


My thoughts on the rotation has always been (from what little electrical background I have) similar to why signal transmission is done on twisted pairs. When you twist the positive and negative wires together, it shows up as nearly no current externally, if you do not twist them then the current can be detected.

If vortexes are a localized movement of charge (perhaps started by warmer charged air rising) then it is possible that charge is not moving only one way but also being returned at the same time (seems more efficient to me). This would be similar to standard electrical wiring. If the charge movement is in a straight line for both charges then perhaps it is not balanced, causing the two lines of charge to twist into a vortex which is balanced. The air movement as a result is simply along for the ride as opposed to a cause.
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Sky Pillars

Unread postby mnemeth1 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:02 am

Here is an interesting phenomina I've never heard of before.

I wonder if there might be an electrical explaination for this effect.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090112.html

image:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/ ... truhin.jpg

What's happening over that town? Close inspection shows these strange columns of light occur over bright lights, and so likely involve falling ice crystals reflecting back these lights. The reason why these pillars fan out at the top, however, is currently unknown -- readers of APOD might help figure this out by participating in an online discussion. The above image and several similar images were taken with a standard digital camera in Sigulda, Latvia last month. The air was noted to be quite cold and indeed filled with small ice crystals, just the type known to create several awe-inspiring but well known sky phenomena such as light pillars, sun pillars, sun dogs, and moon halos. The cold and snowy winter occurring this year in parts of Earth's northern hemisphere is give sky enthusiasts new and typically unexpected opportunities to see several of these unusual optical atmospheric phenomena for themselves.
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby hv_250 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:26 am

>The reason why these pillars fan out at the top, however, is currently unknown
Well acording to this site http://www.atoptics.co.uk/halo/lpil.htm this is what happens:

[... Plate shaped ice crystals, normally only present in high clouds, float in the air close to the ground and their horizontal facets reflect light back downwards. ]

So perhaps higher up a lesser percentage of the crystals face directrly downwards, making the column fade out at the top.

What I don't get however is - what causes the ice crystals to float in the air with precisely the same angle at the same time ? (thus working as a mirror combined)
Acording to the quote above simply floating downwards makes the ice ice crystals maintain the same angle. But I wonder if that has been verified by experiments.
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby Steve Smith » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:46 am

IMO this appears to be a "Kern arc" or a circumzenithal arc.

http://www.ursa.fi/blogit/media/blogs/h ... oraama.jpg

They are sometimes seen around artificial lights, as well.
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columns of light appear in sky,Scientists left baffled

Unread postby Tzunamii » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:22 am

Link to article-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... skies.html

Related to the Aurora perhaps?
I don't buy the Ice crystal pitch, call me jaded.
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby Solar » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:13 pm

Steve Smith wrote:IMO this appears to be a "Kern arc" or a circumzenithal arc.

http://www.ursa.fi/blogit/media/blogs/h ... oraama.jpg

They are sometimes seen around artificial lights, as well.


That circumzenithal arc is beautiful. I'd never known of such a thing; certainly not with a central pillar. Thank you.
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby Steve Smith » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:59 am

Velkommen. It amuses me when the press comes out with articles that discuss "new and baffling" observations. APOD ran the images of the Fairbanks light pillars in 2002.

Atmospheric optical phenomena have always facinated me since the time I saw a white rainbow in Milpitas, CA. It was weird to see since it looked like an arc of fog without colors.

One of the first images I saw of haloes and partial arcs was from the South Pole similar to these:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snow ... /Halo7.jpg
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:13 pm

I've studied atmospheric halo phenomena for a couple decades, and would like to second hv_250's explanation.
Stephen Smith's comments are also a propos. The ice crystals need not be all aligned, in fact they are spinning/rolling hexagonal "columns" [see the "Snowflake" thread] as they fall somewhat horizontally... in this setting, the slightly higher temperatures at elevation due to rising warm air above the lights, or due simply to the small size of the falling crystals that don't quite reach the ground before they sublimate, causes these crystals to disorient, fanning out the apparition. Like rainbows this is a function of the angle of the reflection relative to the observer, so the disks only reflect the street light toward the observer's direction during the instant when in their spin their reflective face[s] are in the right orientation. Beautiful photos.
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:22 pm

webolife wrote:... [see the "Snowflake" thread] ....


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=204&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby volantis » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:11 am

mnemeth1 wrote:I wonder if there might be an electrical explaination for this effect.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090112.html

I thought you guys would be all over this. The ice crystals could only be polarized with one another if they were in an electric field. Essentially, the ice crystals are acting like a giant solid crystal with a lot more space between them. This is true for all atmospheric effects involving ice crystals.

In order for the the ice crystals to be polarized, there would have to be an electric field. And, of course, it is well known the ionosphere makes a capacitor with the Earth's surface and the intervening space is filled with an electric field. Not only do ice crystals become polarized, but also water droplets can become polarized. I demonstrated this with my experiments involving strong electric fields on water vapor a couple summers ago.

The electric field between the ionosphere and Earth surface is constantly changing as it is always stronger on the sunny side of the Earth and weaker at the poles and midnight side of the Earth. It is the constant changing electric fields that mostly drives the weather. Mechanical forces such as heat convection, humidity, and air pressure ultimately are driven by this constantly changing electric field.

The image of the curved light beams shows the polarity of the ice crystals were not directly lined up with the ionosphere and Earth surface (as they normally are), but were aligned with the curved electric fields caused by electrostatic resonance. That is, there was a standing wave of disturbance in the Earth's electrostatic field in which one of the stronger nodes happened to be over that location at that time. The curvature should have changed over time as the electrostatic standing wave node either decayed or migrated to a different location.

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Re: Sky Pillars

Unread postby abguy4 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:37 pm

"Astronomy Picture of the Day" posted this picture.
They asked for an explanation.
I wrote my explanation of what it looks like to me,
and I include it here for your entertainment;

If you don't like the Electric Universe theory - you're not gonna like this explanation. I agree with 90% of that line of reasoning, so my explanation is based on that- here goes;
The earth's atmosphere is in a constant state of electrical imbalance with respect to the earth. This is due to the constant influx of magnetic particles flowing to the earth from the Sun. The ionosphere captures the great portion of these charged particles. Because of this, the atmosphere is constantly in a charged state - NOT just during an 'electrical storm', when the lightening makes the charged state so obvious - by discharging in a furious exchange. There are atmospheric conditions which make the atmosphere a better conductor; for instance - when it's cold and more dense, and 2) when its full of moisture. Water vapor is very ionic in nature, and therefore those molecules are an excellent conductor. Ice crystals, like most crystals, are also excellent/superb conductors.
Recall, it is crystals that are the main object of study in the superconductor arena. Now, with that as a background, let's look at the light columns.
Light has a magnetic component. Since, (in this portion of the universe), electrical and magnetic phenomena are inseparable, (for the most part) , we can presume that light is also affected by the local prevailing magnetic and electrical atmospheric background. We have here in the picture an atmosphere that is loaded with ice crystals - excellent conductors-electrically. But, aren't the ice crystals equally distributed everywhere here? Probably. So, why would the light be attracted in an unusually high distribution straight up away from earth and towards the upper atmosphere? Could it be that; the light from each bulb is following a path of least resistance- that being the (invisible) background electrical path of the ice crystals that are already aligned (everywhere in the picture) along the straight path from earth to upper atmosphere? And also that the light is being "attracted", or "aligned", along the paths set-up by the background magnetics or electrical attractors at the moment of its conception in the white-hot filament?
Isn't a photon just an electron excited to a higher frequency? And wouldn't an electron always flow along the path of 'easiest' conductance?
Notice how elegantly and undeniably the light column spreads-out as it nears the charged cloud layer - just as we would expect the charge distribution attraction pattern would look - if we could see it.
Respectfully yours
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