Electric rain, snow, hail ....

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Electric rain, snow, hail ....

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:15 pm

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Snowflakes Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

Didn't know where this might fit so put it here under Planetary Science. Feel free to relocate/delete if inappropriate. Extracted from a hijacked thread to its own topic here.

redeye from a different thread wrote:
@rc-us wrote:As unexplainable, say ... as a snowflake?


LINK: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _13368.jpg


Whoa, that is amazing natural structure.

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graupel_%28snow%29

LINK: http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snow ... /class.htm (scroll down to see "capped column" section)

Rain, and snow, as related to an electrical universe. So how might this patterning be seen in terms of scalability, for instance?

Hmm, here's a couple of links regarding research into plasma crystals:

LINK: http://dusty.physics.uiowa.edu/~quinn/pchome.html

LINK: Experimental studies of two-dimensional and three-dimensional structure in a crystallized dusty plasma (PDF)

LINK: Dusty Plasmas Department of Physics and Astronomy, The University of Iowa

Seems like I may have seen something similar to this in another thread but I forget where if so:

LINK: If you take cosmic dust and add plasma ... do you get life? Findings suggest that plasma crystals may be the key to one of the universe's greatest mysteries: Is there life out there?

Howstuffworks wrote:The universe is filled with massive clouds of dust. From past studies, scientists have learned that this cosmic dust can, in the presence of plasma, creates formations known as plasma crystals. An international team of researchers published a study in the Aug.14, 2007, issue of the New Journal of Physics that indicates that these crystals may be more sophisticated than anyone realized. In simulations involving cosmic dust, the researchers witnessed the formation of plasma crystals displaying some of the elementary characteristics of life -- DNA-like structure, autonomous behavior, reproduction and evolution.

(article continues)


Referenced from article above:

LINK: New Journal of Physics: From plasma crystals and helical structures towards inorganic living matter (PDF)

New Journal of Physics wrote:Abstract. Complex plasmas may naturally self-organize themselves into stable
interacting helical structures that exhibit features normally attributed to organic
living matter. The self-organization is based on non-trivial physical mechanisms
of plasma interactions involving over-screening of plasma polarization. As a
result, each helical string composed of solid microparticles is topologically
and dynamically controlled by plasma fluxes leading to particle charging and
over-screening, the latter providing attraction even among helical strings of the
same charge sign. These interacting complex structures exhibit thermodynamic
and evolutionary features thought to be peculiar only to living matter such as
bifurcations that serve as ‘memory marks’, self-duplication, metabolic rates in a
thermodynamically open system, and non-Hamiltonian dynamics. We examine
the salient features of this new complex ‘state of soft matter’ in light of the
autonomy, evolution, progenity and autopoiesis principles used to define life.
It is concluded that complex self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the
necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter that
may exist in space provided certain conditions allow them to evolve naturally.

(full article continues at above linked PDF)


LINK: http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12466

NewScientistSpace wrote:According to a new simulation, electrically charged dust can organise itself into DNA-like double helixes that behave in many ways like living organisms, reproducing and passing on information to one another.

"This came as a bit of a surprise to us", says Gregor Morfill of the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. He and colleagues have built a computer simulation to model what happens to dust immersed in an ionised gas, or plasma.

(article continues at above link)
Last edited by nick c on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: thread title changed/merged posts
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:17 pm

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Snowflakes, spontaneous generation, or life Reply with quote
OP "webolife"

I was attracted to this topic by the misleading "snowflakes" title... I'm rather interested in snowflakes myself, having demonstrated their formation as resulting from the aggregation [both attraction and repulsion] of ionized atmospheric particles [OK EU guys, PLASMAS!] since the early 80's, despite most reference materials stating that their mechanism of formation is unknown. Their hexagonal structure is of course exigent. However, I'm having problems with the "living plasmas" proposition for this [perhaps naive] reason: a quintessential property of living systems is their persistence DESPITE the hostility of their environment, and plasmas are rather a quintessential property of the environment. It seems to me that any claim that ignores this fundamental distinction is wishful thinking at best. DNA is a selfreplicating information bearing system that is wholly dependent upon living cell machinery that is in turn produced by/dependent on the DNA, an irreducibly complex system. While plasmas are certainly involved in the operation of cell machinery, eg. centriole operation and microtubules, et.al, how can plasma vortices, other than helicity, be meaningfully compared with life? Are we looking at a new version of spontaneous generation here? Better I think to focus on remarkable and cogent comparisons between plasmas and crystal formations, including... aha! SNOWFLAKES.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:18 pm

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "junglelord"

rc would you have an idea as to the lack of dust in the nova on this thread? You seem to have a better handle on plasma and dust then I do.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... .php?t=999
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:26 pm

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

junglelord wrote:rc would you have an idea as to the lack of dust in the nova on this thread? You seem to have a better handle on plasma and dust then I do.
<old forum link no longer valid>


I think you're onto answering your own question quite handily in the thread itself (after you had posted this). That (the void) was my first thought after reading your question here and before reading your own followups within the above thread.

There is some further, earlier discussion of the void phenomenon here:

LINK: ELECTRICITY involved in the formation of planets? <old forum link no longer valid>

Note what appears to be 4 vortices similar to H. Johnson's mapping of a magnet's field (reference the LINK:Magnetism: Form, Structure, & Dynamics thread) in the pic below from the above thread:

void.jpg

(click to view larger image)
Figure 2: Features of a complex plasma (3 seconds superposition of particle trajectories)

About Figure 2 wrote:Under microgravity conditions the typical static and dynamic behaviour of complex plasmas is illustrated in figure 2. This figure shows a 3 second trajectory fragment of the microparticles, color coded from red to blue. The dominant features which can be investigated here are:

- a microparticle free "void" in the centre of the system for most experimental parameters;
- a sharp boundary between the void and the complex plasma;
- demixing of complex plasma clouds formed by microparticles of different sizes;
- crystalline structures along the central axis;
- vortices in different areas away from the central axis.

All of the above mentioned features have been investigated in detail over the last years.


LINK: Plasma cavitation? <old forum link no longer valid>

Perhaps even the same principles at work in the denser, more compact formation of geodes and other hollow spheres. There has been one or two past threads discussing these forms.

best,
arc-us
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:30 pm

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Snowflakes, spontaneous generation, or life Reply with
OP "arc-us"

webolife wrote:I was attracted to this topic by the misleading "snowflakes" title... I'm rather interested in snowflakes myself, having demonstrated their formation as resulting from the aggregation [both attraction and repulsion] of ionized atmospheric particles [OK EU guys, PLASMAS!] since the early 80's, despite most reference materials stating that their mechanism of formation is unknown. Their hexagonal structure is of course exigent.


Sorry, if you felt mislead by the title. I can be as obscure as the next fellow. :) My main interest in creating the topic was very much snowflake-related in terms of the morphology involved, the crystallization aspect, and the scalability factor. In my own warped way of thought it just lead naturally to the recent findings of crystal formations in dusty plasma.

However, I'm having problems with the "living plasmas" proposition


Ha! You would have to zero in on the most ... controversial ... yea, nonsensical ... aspect at the end of the post. Busted (i.e. me) :lol: I hadn't even intended in going that direction but ran across it as I was gathering the other references.

for this [perhaps naive] reason: a quintessential property of living systems is their persistence DESPITE the hostility of their environment, and plasmas are rather a quintessential property of the environment.


Where does one draw the line that distinctly and irrevocably separates what you have termed a living system from the environment of that living system. Where is one dead and the other living? I'm not trying to be contentious or nit-picking. I think it's a subject worthy of ... contemplation ... and sincere thought. I certainly don't have any answers, being stuck permanently, it would seem, at the wonderment stage. :)

It seems to me that any claim that ignores this fundamental distinction is wishful thinking at best. DNA is a selfreplicating information bearing system that is wholly dependent upon living cell machinery that is in turn produced by/dependent on the DNA, an irreducibly complex system. While plasmas are certainly involved in the operation of cell machinery, eg. centriole operation and microtubules, et.al, how can plasma vortices, other than helicity, be meaningfully compared with life? Are we looking at a new version of spontaneous generation here? Better I think to focus on remarkable and cogent comparisons between plasmas and crystal formations, including... aha! SNOWFLAKES.


I agree. Hence, the post. :lol:

p.s. I'm still in awe over those "capped column" snowflakes. Not sure why exactly, but that blows me away. Kinda makes me wonder if ... on a vastly larger scale ... this structure manifested in some way as a model for ancient temples. Just daydreaming, here.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:31 pm

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "junglelord"

Excellent, thanks. The constant holographic principle is alive and active.
:lol:
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:32 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "webolife"

arc-us,
Distinguishing... a living system from the environment of that living system... is what my comment was about. "Separating" is another story indeed! I contended elsewhere with junglelord about the "energy = information" soundbite on a similar vein. "Connectivity" is the seed of field unification, so I would argue for that any day. However, I believe that information is a product of intelligence, not of energy. The information that characterizes life is independently specific and patterned, and transforms its environment to suit its needs. Non-living systems, crystals for instance, may electrically interact with their surroundings, and are connected through the universal plasma matrix, but if that is "information", then it is a very low concept of same, in my view.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

webolife wrote:arc-us,
Distinguishing... a living system from the environment of that living system... is what my comment was about. "Separating" is another story indeed! I contended elsewhere with junglelord about the "energy = information" soundbite on a similar vein. "Connectivity" is the seed of field unification, so I would argue for that any day. However, I believe that information is a product of intelligence, not of energy. The information that characterizes life is independently specific and patterned, and transforms its environment to suit its needs. Non-living systems, crystals for instance, may electrically interact with their surroundings, and are connected through the universal plasma matrix, but if that is "information", then it is a very low concept of same, in my view.


Ok, I think I get your point. While "information is a product of intelligence" is a little too cause-and-effect for my personal taste 8-) I get where you're coming from, I think. Thinking it over, seems like perhaps information is an innate property of energy which intelligence (as a property of living organisms) ... situationally or circumstantially ... extracts or transforms into relevant perception about the environment within the given intelligence's capacity for use? As there could be said to be hierarchies of intelligent forms that are appropriately in-formed, then likewise there could be said to be hierarchies of useful information. (I don't know if that even makes sense. :? )

Since I have again succeeded in confounding myself I'll leave it at that and let you guys higher on the intelligence gradient continue.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:37 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lk"

PLASTERFLAKE
- I didn't check out the other links, but I looked at the first one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _13368.jpg
- It's very interesting. The snowflake looks like a table laid on its side with a tabletop on both the top and bottom and the leg looks hexagonal, instead of square or round. The whole thing looks like it's made of plaster or concrete. Maybe this is where the term "plastered" comes from: eating too much snow.
- And both table tops have little blobs on top all over, also like plaster. I wonder if the little blobs are where the snowflakes grow. The blobs look pretty evenly spaced. I wonder if they're all charged alike so they repel each other at the tips.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:38 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: Snow Flakes Reply with quote
OP "SeaSmith"

rc-us wrote:...likewise there could be said to be hierarchies of useful information...


i lke that. it's like the signal wave riding the carrier wave, is the carrier wave for another implicit signal wave, and ad infinitum ??

fractal snowflakes, fractalating plasma/flux fields, propagating crystals, practal flaster plakes with tablelegs.

what Was the thrust of this thread winnyway ?
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:40 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

I dunno. Let's blame it on Lloyd (lk). He visits a thread ... blooey ... snowflakes to doughnuts, nobody knows what's goin' on anymore. :lol:

psst ... I don't have to mention I'm jes' kiddin' lk. right?
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:41 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Flakey... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Somebody say doughnuts?

mmmmmmmmmmmmm ... doughnuts...

:lol:
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:41 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:45 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote


Gee, guys ... no one 'cept me and lk find this sucker fascinating?! No ooh's and ah's? Everybody git all growed up and everything?

capped_column_snowflake_s.jpg

(click to view larger image)
Capped-column Snowflake

LINK: to the full-sized image

Refer back to first post in thread for other links.
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Re: Recovered: Snowflakes

Unread postby bboyer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:47 pm

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

@rc-us wrote:Gee, guys ... no one 'cept me and lk find this sucker fascinating?! No ooh's and ah's? Everybody git all growed up and everything?

<snip image>
Capped-column Snowflake

LINK: to the full-sized image

Refer back to first post in thread for other links.


Actually, I was rather interested by it. Did I forget to mention that? Oops. Especially the small beads that appeared to litter it, not unlike tiny spherules. Though their genesis perhaps remains a mystery. Is the material layered one bit on top of the next? Pinched together in one event? Or somehow pulled out of the other material (can't quite tell what all the viscous-looking stuff on the ends is doing). Kind of looks like stuff that's either been pushed or pulled a bit like taffy... Has a rather unusual look to it.

I'm impressed also by the geometric precision of so many of the photos... And the symmetry. Looks a bit like the precision of die sink EDM... Not saying that's what causes it. It's just pretty cool the level of precision with formations the things take.

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