V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:42 pm

by Younger Dryas » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:18 pm

So I would scratch the idea that the origins of Salt content within oceans was the result of a recent (within human memory) interaction. Millions of years of aquatic adaptations to Salt Content would throw a wrench in the idea it resulted virtually overnight via Saturn as well.


Mainstream; that salt is derived from the Earth and subsequently carried into oceans via Rivers holds water.


Hi Younger Dryas. The question here I think is, "Why look for an alternative theory for the salinity of the Seven Seas, when we already have a perfectly good, time-tested explanation?"

I will give you 5 good reasons:

1. Velikovsky predicted the presence of water and chlorine/NaCl on Saturn, and it has been discovered, along with isotopic similarities
2. The rocks on earth are too poor in chlorine to account for all the salt in the seas, according to Velikovsky
3. The levels of salt in the seas has been unchanged, not for millions of years, as you remarked, but for hundreds
of millions of years; some might not be satisfied that there is a physical explanation for this
4. If myths and legends are admissible evidence, then I would point out that on every continent, a genuine
majority of nations, tribes and tongues have folk beliefs about a cataclysmic flood. Actually, I have found in
many cases there were two: one flood at creation, and one later flood.
5. Velikovsky's argument is that the uneventful millions and hundreds of millions of years required are not in evidence; but rather, the record shows contorted and violently overthrown strata and a chaotic geologic column that does not include transitions

There, five good reasons! (: But I will start a thread for discussion of the constant level of salt in the oceans, because that is a key, either way you look at it.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:52 pm

Thanks for providing the info on Salt Content - the most interesting take-away, higher salt content = greater conductivity. About a million times more than freshwater.

Lets forget the word "Flare"

And replace it with a sustained electric current ... lets place this current off the coast of Greenland ... and give it a few thousand years to accomplish its mission;

Suppose you made a 20 meter thick copper rod of 500 meters length and plunged it into the ocean, with a flotation device and supplied gigawatts of electrical power to it...

The current will take a more or less straight path to the ocean floor, and the sea water which is a very good electrolyte will start breaking down into chlorine gas and sodium ions, which will combine with the remaining water to form sodium hydroxide and generate a lot of heat.


Climatic record might show a significant warming period (Holocene Climatic Optimum) - which would be a strong indicator of when using whatever chronology you feel most comfortable with.

A byproduct of this 'glow mode' plasma discharge into Salt Water (though I'm not entirely certain how an Arc would behave hitting ocean rather than land to compare) - would be an enormous cloud bank of water vapour sans the salt; suspended, quite possibly creating the initial conditions required for glaciation (steady snowfall) Climatic Record might show a significant cooling period just prior (Younger Dryas)

A perfect circuit


Fresh Water + Warmer Global Temp's + Stronger Magnetic Field (today the Salty Oceans account for 2%) are just a few of the benefits we all here in the present tend to forget to appreciate.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:59 pm

1. A byproduct of this 'glow mode' plasma discharge into Salt Water (though I'm not entirely certain how an Arc would behave hitting ocean rather than land to compare)

2. - would be an enormous cloud bank of water vapour sans the salt; suspended, quite possibly creating the initial conditions required for glaciation (steady snowfall) Climatic Record might show a significant cooling period just prior (Younger Dryas)



1. Lightning does strike the surface of the oceans, and it would be really good to look into anything that is published on that! There are sometimes huge mortalities of fish, whales and dolphins, which I have thought could be because of a lightning bolt striking the sea water.

My guess is that even "a glow mode discharge", as YoungerDryas put it, would be deadly -- either because of heat or because of electrocution. And it so happens that according to one study, the ocean temperatures have shot upwards by 18-20 deg F before. Also, according to mainstream paleontogists, over 95% of marine species have gone extinct.

We find their fossils on the continents.

2. The climatic extremes, especially glaciation, which would be associated with all of the water vapor/electricity of the Saturnian flare is a great point.

On the other hand, in the catastrophic scenario, the rapid appearance of oceans would result in the development of the Hadley and other cells, the trade winds, and the rain shadows, which would be a complete change from previous conditions.

After that, the appearance of the ice caps at the poles, the polar jet and the polar vortex wobble, would be another complete change from previous conditions. (The ice and snow cover in the Arctic Circle, as readers of Velikovsky know, were not always there. See frozen elephants and rhinocerus')

Image
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:07 pm

Another question is, "Is there enough salt water in Saturn's rings right now to fill the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans?"

Some figures to work with:

The rings of Saturn are the most extensive ring system of any planet in the Solar System. They consist of countless small particles, ranging from μm to m in size,[1] that orbit about Saturn. The ring particles are made almost entirely of water ice, with a trace component of rocky material. There is still no consensus as to their mechanism of formation; some features of the rings suggest a relatively recent origin, but theoretical models indicate they are likely to have formed early in the Solar System's history.[2] ~wik


&

From Cassini: "The gravitational pull of the rings indicates their mass, which in turn indicates how old they are. The more time these icy rocks spend out in space, the heavier they get, contaminated by passing space debris.

In case you were wondering, the mass of the rings reaches around 15 quintillion kilograms (about 16.5 quadrillion tons), roughly 5,000 times less mass than our own Moon."


&

The ocean accounts for 0.022 percent of the total weight of earth
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:22 pm

by Younger Dryas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:52 pm
Thanks for providing the info on Salt Content - the most interesting take-away, higher salt content = greater conductivity. About a million times more than freshwater.

Lets forget the word "Flare"

And replace it with a sustained electric current ... lets place this current off the coast of Greenland ... and give it a few thousand years to accomplish its mission;


By the way, I really like your model, YD. I am not arguing against it necessarily, but I do take Velikovsky's use of the words "nova" or flare as literal terms indicating rapid events. He thought that seven days of brightness preceded a sudden ejection of gas or water, which was deposited on Earth. "Enough to fill the Atlantic Ocean," he said.

The electrical deposition and removal of materials from Jupiter's moons might be an example of slower processes; but on Io at least, those exceed the brightness and heat of volcanoes. You may have problems with dissociating the water! After that, H2 and O2 are very very explosive when they mix.

Perhaps Enceledus is a living laboratory for deposition and excavation of a satellite involving water. It's salt water is found in the furthest ring of Saturn. That might suit your model better. A few thousand years and voila. But in that process we see water removed more than deposited.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Cargo » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:51 pm

"The gravitational pull of the rings indicates their mass, which in turn indicates how old they are. The more time these icy rocks spend out in space, the heavier they get, contaminated by passing space debris.


I find the use of terms and method of thinking here to be highly suspect. An extreme leap of faith comes from such ridiculous cause/effect scenarios. There is absolutely zero proof from mainstream gravity astrophysics which can explain the rings formation, presence, or longevity.

And while recent papers claim to determine the mass/gravity of Saturn changing based on 'waves' in the rings, I would treat any claims about age/mass/gravity with some disdain when the electric forces are not considered.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:12 am

Curiously the world's largest deposit of Salt is located underneath the Great Lakes. Which themselves are a geologic enigma to mainstream.

Admittedly my knowledge of Salt production is limited but from what I understand, a large mine is dug, water is pumped to dissolve the salt below, this water is then hydrolically pumped back to the surface to evaporate leaving, for example common table salt behind.



My lingering question; was the Salt created (Chemically) as a result of the Electric Interaction?


Or did the Interaction simply create similar conditions to our modern day Industrial processes? And harvest the Salt, which had pre-existed deep below for any number of beneficial usages?


Regardless these changes in Salinity would be gradual, and require large length's of time:

https://scubadiverlife.com/seven-fish-s ... alt-water/

All fish, whether they live in salt water or fresh water, must maintain a certain level of salinity in their bloodstream to survive; the process by which they achieve this equilibrium is called osmoregulation. In freshwater species, this involves actively taking in salt from the surrounding environment via the gills, and excreting enough water through the kidneys to prevent that salt from becoming too diluted. In saltwater species, it involves excreting the excess salt ingested when they drink seawater via the gills and kidneys, thereby preventing the water in their system from becoming too salty. Sharks are a little different — they have high urea concentrations in their blood, which helps them absorb water directly from the ocean around them. They also remove excess salt through their urine.

Most fish are restricted to one environment because they cannot change the way they osmoregulate, but some species spend periods of their life in both environments because they are able to switch between the two methods of osmoregulation. Collectively, these species are known as euryhaline fish, a category that can be further split into those fish that spend most of their lives at sea (anadromous fish), and those that spend most of their time in fresh water (catadromous fish). Although many euryhaline fish can tolerate extreme changes in salinity, most require a gradual shift from one environment to the other to allow their bodies to make the necessary adjustments.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:30 pm

by Cargo » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:51 pm

"The gravitational pull of the rings indicates their mass, which in turn indicates how old they are. The more time these icy rocks spend out in space, the heavier they get, contaminated by passing space debris.


I find the use of terms and method of thinking here to be highly suspect. An extreme leap of faith comes from such ridiculous cause/effect scenarios. There is absolutely zero proof from mainstream gravity astrophysics which can explain the rings formation, presence, or longevity.

And while recent papers claim to determine the mass/gravity of Saturn changing based on 'waves' in the rings, I would treat any claims about age/mass/gravity with some disdain when the electric forces are not considered.


I agree; but those were the only figures on offer. I am never sure if the densities of the moons or planets, or even our moon, are correct.

But it is interesting that the rings appear to be fairly bright, and the suggestion here is that with age, they will become dustier and therefore darker. "The more time these icy rocks spend out in space, the heavier they get, contaminated by passing space debris."
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:56 pm

by Younger Dryas » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:12 am

Curiously the world's largest deposit of Salt is located underneath the Great Lakes. Which themselves are a geologic enigma to mainstream. Admittedly my knowledge of Salt production is limited but from what I understand, a large mine is dug, water is pumped to dissolve the salt below, this water is then hydrolically pumped back to the surface to evaporate leaving, for example common table salt behind.


And it is also mined by shafts, rails, cars and earth movers. It would be a real treat to go see some of the old salt mines in Michigan, and the coal mines in the continental shelves also. I have read the ceilings are very strange.

When halite is mined, they get potassium and magnesium salts, along with iodine and bromine from the process of purification. This gives some circumstantial evidence that those gigantic salt domes are actually evaporates of ocean water.

Why would the salt deposits be vertical, instead of being in a huge lake or sea bed, like the Salt Flats of Utah? I have a guess about that, but a new salt dome thread might be a better place for it. But electricity traveling through the Earth provides the heat to evaporate the water, and cause some chemical changes, in my view.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:17 pm

Image


Jan 26, 2011
A Fizzy Ocean on Enceladus

January 26, 2011: For years researchers have been debating whether Enceladus, a tiny moon floating just outside Saturn's rings, is home to a vast underground ocean. Is it wet--or not? Now, new evidence is tipping the scales. Not only does Enceladus likely have an ocean, that ocean is probably fizzy like a soft drink and could be friendly to microbial life.

The story begins in 2005 when NASA's Cassini probe flew past Enceladus for a close encounter.

"Geophysicists expected this little world to be a lump of ice, cold, dead, and uninteresting," says Dennis Matson of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "Boy, were we surprised!"


Cassini found the little moon busily puffing plumes of water vapor, icy particles, and organic compounds out through fissures (now known as "tiger stripes") in its frozen carapace. Mimas, a nearby moon about the same size, was as dead as researchers expected, but Enceladus was precociously active.

Many researchers viewed the icy jets as proof of a large subterranean body of water. Near-surface pockets of liquid water with temperatures near 32o F could explain the watery plumes. But there were problems with this theory. For one thing, where was the salt?

In initial flybys, Cassini's instruments detected carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and various hydrocarbons in the plume gasses. But there were none of the elements of salt that ocean water should contain.


NASA apparently was actively looking for salt water!
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:27 pm

Now we were speaking of the other salts and elements obtained when mining and purifying halite on Earth.

This article lists one of the same salts (along with table salt) in the icy particles of Enceladas:

"It wasn't in the plume gasses where we'd been looking for it," says Matson. "Instead, sodium and potassium salts and carbonates were locked up in the plumes' icy particles.* And the source of these substances has to be an ocean. Stuff dissolved in an ocean is similar to the contents of these grains."

The latest Cassini observations presented another intriguing discovery: thermal measurements revealed fissures with temperatures as high as -120o Fahrenheit (190 Kelvin).

"This discovery resets our clocks!" says Matson. "Temperatures this high have to be volcanic in origin. Heat must be flowing from the interior, enough to melt some of the underground ice, creating an underground waterworks."
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:28 am

Brigit Bara wrote:Now we were speaking of the other salts and elements obtained when mining and purifying halite on Earth.

This article lists one of the same salts (along with table salt) in the icy particles of Enceladas:

"It wasn't in the plume gasses where we'd been looking for it," says Matson. "Instead, sodium and potassium salts and carbonates were locked up in the plumes' icy particles.* And the source of these substances has to be an ocean. Stuff dissolved in an ocean is similar to the contents of these grains."

The latest Cassini observations presented another intriguing discovery: thermal measurements revealed fissures with temperatures as high as -120o Fahrenheit (190 Kelvin).

"This discovery resets our clocks!" says Matson. "Temperatures this high have to be volcanic in origin. Heat must be flowing from the interior, enough to melt some of the underground ice, creating an underground waterworks."



Thats all really great info Bridget!

I wonder though if perhaps Salt is simply an Electric discharge, similar to water. Perhaps Earth's large salt deposits might provide a map of interactions having taken place historically?

Also it appears we have the framework to successfully terraform/ressurect a planet that contains salty ocean + atmosphere. We can call it "ElectroCulture"


Also 'Salt Licks' provided the early roads for our Ancient Ancestors, using the paths carved out by mammals travelling to get their mineral deposits! Which I thought was a pretty cool tie-in.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:48 pm

by Younger Dryas » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:28 am

I wonder though if perhaps Salt is simply an Electric discharge, similar to water. Perhaps Earth's large salt deposits might provide a map of interactions having taken place historically?


I think you are right, "Earth's large salt deposits might provide a map of interactions having taken place historically."

Like you said, there are huge deposits under the Great Lakes, and I just read that there is a huge salt deposit underneath the Mediterranean Sea. The salt domes are sometimes miles across, and vertical. There are also vast fields of salt evaporites in deserts across the world. And there are thick layers of salt interspersed with clay layers deep underground. A lot of the geological textbooks are trying to answer for these huge halite deposits.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:06 pm

But I do agree that they are evaporites, formerly dissolved in sea water. (Did you mean to say they are not evaporites?) How rapidly and by what heat they were laid down is the question. And why they are associated with oil fields is another question.

--In my view, it isn't just salt that provides a map of the powerful electrical discharges, it is every single feature of the planet that provides a map of the interplanetary thunderbolts. (: But the secret to reading the Leichtenburg scarring of Earth is understanding that it was fully submerged in water, in at least two of its most extensive scarring episodes. Haven't we all wondered, uniformitarian and catastrophist alike, "Where did Earth's water come from?"

According to Velikovsky the brown dwarf star, Saturn, has undergone catastrophic nova activity, and drenched its former satellite. He said the salt or chlorine of Saturn's water and ice would match that of our oceans. And so far, the salts, isotopic ratios, and possibly magnesium and bromine, have matched Saturn's rings.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Cargo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:06 am

Check out the size and local of the Bonneville+Salt+Flats, and it's relation to Yellowstone, the Navajo Reserve, and the Grand Canyon.
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